Work Issues

[south869]

Hello, I wonder if anyone else has had been asked to "prove you have diabetes" by an employer? my employer has asked for my current medical records, I spoke to the doctor he said he would limit it to the current problems I have and it might help at work, he thinks it may prompt occupational health assessment which may help me. I got called in to the office and during the meeting I complained that under the current 5s inspection they wanted my snack and meter removed together with my phone, I had told them the phone was for ICE and I had imformed them many times I was diabetic and needed sometimes to monitor my sugar and snack if low.
Hence the request to prove I had diabetes

Anyone else had similar problems...

 

[himtoo]

hi there @south869
welcome to the forum
sorry i cannot directly help with your query.

as a type 1 -- if I had been asked that ( and thought it was affecting my employment ) I would have been quick to show them my insulin and injection pens , as well as blood testing equipment.
I might have injected in front of them to "prove a point".

I am not aware of any meds you take -- but perhaps showing them the repeat prescription you have could assist

I am sure by law you should not have to do this -- but I am not an expert in law either -- just an expert in knowing i always wanted to work so did everything i could to stay in employment

sorry if i have not been any help.

all the best to you. !!!!

 

[therower]

Hi @south869 . Welcome to the forum.
You mention 5s. Are you working on a production line or at a fixed work station?

 

[DCUKMod]

Hello, I wonder if anyone else has had been asked to "prove you have diabetes" by an employer? my employer has asked for my current medical records, I spoke to the doctor he said he would limit it to the current problems I have and it might help at work, he thinks it may prompt occupational health assessment which may help me. I got called in to the office and during the meeting I complained that under the current 5s inspection they wanted my snack and meter removed together with my phone, I had told them the phone was for ICE and I had imformed them many times I was diabetic and needed sometimes to monitor my sugar and snack if low.
Hence the request to prove I had diabetes

Anyone else had similar problems...

I haven't personally had any issues such as you describe, but from time to time we have members reporting they have issues carrying kit or any form of food with them. Often that's relating to either employer's policy - often in secure areas, food or retail environments.

 

[south869]

Just to add some further information, I work in a factory on the shop floor and have a workstation (assembly ) with lin bins on racking, I normaly pop a snack bar and my meds (tablets + Accu-chek) in a spare bin to hide it away, we get 5s inspections and get rated, but the main issue is you dont eat or have unnecessary items at work, as a result of diabetes I now have lipodermatosclerosis and have been off work for some long periods, resulting in poor marks when the pay reviews come round.
I was ok to allow medical checks on my "current" illness however the new manager has taken an issue and demanded "I prove my diabetes"
Because of the breaks from work and what other see as being workshy, my old manager told me the team were wary of me as I didn't join in, "I should join in when the end of the week comes" as they let off steam on Fridays and mess about, getting the local sandwich shop to delivery rolls, ordering pizza for lunch, long story short, I joined in and then faced a disciplinary for "gross industrial missconduct" which was short for "we dont want you here with a gimpy leg and being of sick"

 

[catapillar]

@south869 what medication are you on for your diabetes? This goes into whether your type 2 diabetes is considered a disability under the equality act. The test for whether something is a disability for the purpose of the equality act is whether there is a long term condition that would have a significant adverse impact on your ability to conduct day to day activities without treatment. Now, under this test type 1 is definitely a disability as without treatment a type 1 would be dead. Whether your type 2 is a disability under this test depends upon how it is treated. An employment tribunal judge in one case said his type 2 diabetes was treated with diet alone and therefore wasn't a disability.

So diet treated type 2, not a disabiliy. Insulin treated type 2 is a disability. Then all the other medications will sit in the grey area in between from metformin (probably not a disability) to Gliclazide (probably is a disability).

If your type 2 is a disability then you get the benefits of the equality act protections against discrimination. Your employer has a duty to accommodate your disability by making reasonable adjustments. So for someone working in retail where there is a rule you can't have anything in your pocket on the shop floor it would be a reasonable adjustment to bend that rule to allow them to have test kit and hypo treatment. Whether this applies in your case in a factory depends on the reasons for the rule for no items in your work station: if there are safety or regulatory reasons that prohibit them, it might not be reasonable to bend the rule. But you might find that the body conducting the inspections are probably well aware of the diversity need to accommodate disability so may have made their own accommodation to the rules for the inspection, and actually your employer showing they have given you reasonable adjustments to keep you safe with access to test kit might give them brownie points in the inspection.

Equally, if you have difficulty with rules about time off due to a disability these rules can be adjusted so days off caused by your disability don't count against you.

 

[south869]

Thanks for the reply, I am on metformin and amitriptyline for the neuropathy, the lipodermatosclerosis has been rather savage and I have loss of movment in my leg, with scaring and damage from the ulcers, so am disabled according to the DWP and my doctor tell's me I am disabled and advised me to blue badge as the walking is getting limited, I know its a grey area as what is listed as disabled in/by one group does not always follow to another group, I have been on steroids and now am on long term antibiotics to stop the infections, this is where I need to eat when taking pain relief and other meds.

The 5s is purely a cosmetic thing to ensure it looks nice, that said they bring in cakes and stuff when its birthdays so I fail to see any problem with a few tablet and a snack bar hidden from view, this is more of a (we will pick on anything you do to get rid of you) thing than a hygiene or safety, if you are refering to Metroline Travel Ltd v Stoute I see some cases being sent to the Employment Appeal Tribunal and the final answer is still to be settled, I am now disabled due to the resticted movement in my leg and my diabetes has been controlled by medication as I follow a restricted diet anyhow.
With me agreeing to the medical check, I find the demand "you must prove it" a bit ott, this is a long term problem i have had for the last 5 years, for a while I never had a "back to work" meeting as they knew full well why I was off.

 

[first14808]

...but the main issue is you dont eat or have unnecessary items at work.

As a former employer and manager of diabetic staff, and now diagnosed myself.. I see two issues with that point of view. If others eat at work and they're saying you can't, that's pretty much by definition discriminatory. If you need to test, then test equipment is necessary. If you're getting singled out for 'not being a team player', I'd suggest that's also discriminatory and management should have words with the staff to explain why.

As for the medical check, that may be an insurance/liability issue. All employers and managers have a duty of care towards their employees, and part of that is knowing if there's anything that may impact on their health & safety. So making sure first aiders and fire wardens know you may need a bit of help.

The legalities can be a bit of a minefield, but there's also my view, ie what a good employer should do. One example was working in a secure area that was normally unmanned. Security types get (or should get) nervous about anything with a USB port, so test kit was left in lockers outside the secure area. There was a two-man rule on working inside those areas, so help would be available. I'd ask for a meeting with HR to explain both their, and your concerns. Your comment about 'gross misconduct' is pretty serious as that can quickly lead to dismissal.

 

[kevinfitzgerald]

Hello, I wonder if anyone else has had been asked to "prove you have diabetes" by an employer? my employer has asked for my current medical records, I spoke to the doctor he said he would limit it to the current problems I have and it might help at work, he thinks it may prompt occupational health assessment which may help me. I got called in to the office and during the meeting I complained that under the current 5s inspection they wanted my snack and meter removed together with my phone, I had told them the phone was for ICE and I had imformed them many times I was diabetic and needed sometimes to monitor my sugar and snack if low.
Hence the request to prove I had diabetes

Anyone else had similar problems...

Also all employers have an obligation to all employees to make "Reasonable Adjustments" if you have a disability or condition where certain situations require such for you to be able to do your job safely. I think this is also covered in the Disability Discrimination Act 1995.

As far as "proof" is concerned do you have a medical exemption certificate or SOS Talisman which states you have Type 1 Diabetes! A Drs Repeat Prescription slip should do I would think. You could also give them permission to speak to your GP regarding this and let your GP know (though only allow discussion around proof of your diabetes)

Amazing this stuff goes on.....

 

[first14808]

I think some of it may be fear & ignorance, especially in smaller companies that may have less developed policies and procedures. Or decent staff/HR training.. Which can also apply to larger companies. Hey, we have Oracle HR.. but it doesn't have a box for this. Which it should, given the statutory requirements and potential employer liability.

I'd be very wary of "and then faced a disciplinary for "gross industrial missconduct", especially if you think you're being managed out. A formal disciplinary should have given you a letter explaining exactly what the 'gross misconduct' was, including any sections of any employee handbook that covers what they're accusing you of. If you have that, it may be worth checking that with the CAB for advice. The letter should also state any corrective action they think is necessary, which can link into 'Reasonable Adjustments' Kevin mentioned. But on the 'proof' side, again I'd ask HR or line manager what they'd accept as proof, and who would have access to it. To be clear, I'd suggest a Dr's letter stating your condition, and how that affects you in the workplace, ie need to be able to manage glucose levels and mobility restrictions. That would also act as a legal 'heads up' and they've been formally informed of any health/disability issues.

Good luck!

 

[Polarice]

It seems like you are in the UK. I used to be a member of my office disability help group and I came upon this type of bullying manager many time - so I'll give you the same advice I used to give to them !

If you indeed in the UK, you are covered by the health provisions of Equalities Act 2010, (which superceedes and replaced the two previous Disability Discrimination Acts) which prevents any employer discriminating against you due to your health issues. I would suggest you ask to speak to your works welfare officer or formally request an independent health assessment, as these assessors will know the rules and how the law applies to you - and they should then tell your employer - and thereby your unfeeling new boss - of their legal 'responsibilities' towards you as a person with long term health condition.
As for you being asked by your new manager to 'prove' you have diabetes, this breaches the provisions of the act big time - employers are simply not allowed to ask you to prove anything health related, in fact you are entitled to keep all health related matters private if you want ! Employers are legally required to make provisions that suit you to allow you to do your job - you are not required to make alterations to your working life to suit them !
So, don't let them bully you, and be sure to get all their requests in writing, so if anything should happen, you have proof of their behaviour towards you.
Don't refuse any request for information, just say you will comply once they have put in writing so that you can be sure to provide exactly what information they want - and try to have a witness who can back you up if you are accused of refusing to comply with any request.
If you are asked to attend an interview for any reason, you are entitled to have someone with you as a witness, your employer might not like it and may say you can't - but the law says you can. And the law trumps your boss every time !
If you have no joy with getting an independent health assessment through work, speak to your local citizens advice people as they will help guide you.
Just don't take this laying down, because what your boss is doing to you is wrong - very, very wrong and it 'is' most definitely against the law !
And if you can, join your trade union, as they will know the anti discrimination rules as well !

Finally, search for the "Equalities Act 2010" on the web and go to the Legislation uk website where on the left hand side there is an icon to download a pdf version of the act so you read it through yourself. It is a bit turgid, but it should help you to better understand your 'rights' as a disabled employee and their 'responsibilities' towards you again as a disabled employee.

Good luck - and do tell us know how you get on !

 

[DCUKMod]

It seems like you are in the UK. I used to be a member of my office disability help group and I came upon this type of bullying manager many time - so I'll give you the same advice I used to give to them !

If you indeed in the UK, you are covered by the health provisions of Equalities Act 2010, (which superceedes and replaced the two previous Disability Discrimination Acts) which prevents any employer discriminating against you due to your health issues. I would suggest you ask to speak to your works welfare officer or formally request an independent health assessment, as these assessors will know the rules and how the law applies to you - and they should then tell your employer - and thereby your unfeeling new boss - of their legal 'responsibilities' towards you as a person with long term health condition.
As for you being asked by your new manager to 'prove' you have diabetes, this breaches the provisions of the act big time - employers are simply not allowed to ask you to prove anything health related, in fact you are entitled to keep all health related matters private if you want ! Employers are legally required to make provisions that suit you to allow you to do your job - you are not required to make alterations to your working life to suit them !
So, don't let them bully you, and be sure to get all their requests in writing, so if anything should happen, you have proof of their behaviour towards you.
Don't refuse any request for information, just say you will comply once they have put in writing so that you can be sure to provide exactly what information they want - and try to have a witness who can back you up if you are accused of refusing to comply with any request.
If you are asked to attend an interview for any reason, you are entitled to have someone with you as a witness, your employer might not like it and may say you can't - but the law says you can. And the law trumps your boss every time !
If you have no joy with getting an independent health assessment through work, speak to your local citizens advice people as they will help guide you.
Just don't take this laying down, because what your boss is doing to you is wrong - very, very wrong and it 'is' most definitely against the law !
And if you can, join your trade union, as they will know the anti discrimination rules as well !

Finally, search for the "Equalities Act 2010" on the web and go to the Legislation uk website where on the left hand side there is an icon to download a pdf version of the act so you read it through yourself. It is a bit turgid, but it should help you to better understand your 'rights' as a disabled employee and their 'responsibilities' towards you again as a disabled employee.

Good luck - and do tell us know how you get on !

Whilst I have no grounds to challenge your experience, I think it would be highly unusual if the member were asking their employer to make concessions to their diabetes that it would not be reasonable that the employer be satisfied such a request were justified.

I'm sure there are ways of doing this, but otherwise there might just be an explosion of people looking for all sorts of concessions.

I know, from a relatives experiences a couple of years ago that certain areas of the public sector can be brutal in the ways they go about ascertaining the veracity of such a request.

 

[lmc]

Are you in a union? You should definitely be able to keep your meter and snacks with you. This is a life threatening condition. If you were not aware you were having a hypo, you would be in trouble. This is a health and safety issue. In places I have worked, people were always trying to give me cakes and biscuits. You explain it but some people just do not want to listen. If you have an occupational health department, I would ask for a referral. They would back you up about the diabetes. You could also get a letter from whoever looks after your diabetes. Unpleasant comments about your leg are harrassment due to disability which is not allowed in the UK. If you are facing gross misconduct charges, so should all the other people who did it. Write down everything that has happened including when other people have done it and dates

 

[1EYESCOT]

In a similar vein, I can go one step further with reference of an Employer's ignorance of illness. Last year, after an Internal transfer from one division to another, involving moving a total of 500 miles, I discovered a Management Bullying & Intimidation culture at my new place of work. The previous 3.5 years counted for nothing and despite my best efforts to beat their "systematic bullying and humiliation" processes, within 4 months I was diagnosed by my GP with Severe Stress and Depression, and placed on medications to combat it.

However, my Medications regime effectively went out of the window as I battled to combat not only the stress but a totally disrupted Sleep pattern, when sometimes I'd go without sleep for up to 48 hours at a time! Luckily, I had Union representation; I say luckily, as my Employers worked on the format that not only did they not recognise Stress and Depression as illnesses, but also didn't allow for Diabetes - to them, these 3 illnesses (amongst others) were "all in the mind!".

Part of their bullying was to disallow me to have my Blood Testing Meter, strips etc., plus snacks which I had discreetly hidden away in a purpose made pouch in a coat pocket; meal times were disrupted oe even taken away by an utterly crazy shift pattern which was designed to seriously impact with me medically.

I was stuck deep in the Highlands of Scotland, couldn't afford to get away for job searching but equally couldn't afford to be out of work and it was a vicious circle. Ultimately, I walked out after the company tried to ban my Union Rep and legal team from representing me at hearings brought into the equation when illness, including Diabetic episodes, caused me to miss work.

My next move to an altogether utterly different employer demonstrated how the whole scenario could be and was handled. I am only sorry, in hindsight, that I didn't get out sooner than I did; equally, a great number of those colleagues I left behind have suffered in a similar way, such that some left under medical duress but some are still there to this day. Others in the same company at other sites are bullied to be back at work or face dismissal, literally days after having major medical surgery. Regrettably, some companies still exist in this day and age..... and seem to get away with it!

 

[busydiabeticmum]

In a similar vein, I can go one step further with reference of an Employer's ignorance of illness. Last year, after an Internal transfer from one division to another, involving moving a total of 500 miles, I discovered a Management Bullying & Intimidation culture at my new place of work. The previous 3.5 years counted for nothing and despite my best efforts to beat their "systematic bullying and humiliation" processes, within 4 months I was diagnosed by my GP with Severe Stress and Depression, and placed on medications to combat it.

However, my Medications regime effectively went out of the window as I battled to combat not only the stress but a totally disrupted Sleep pattern, when sometimes I'd go without sleep for up to 48 hours at a time! Luckily, I had Union representation; I say luckily, as my Employers worked on the format that not only did they not recognise Stress and Depression as illnesses, but also didn't allow for Diabetes - to them, these 3 illnesses (amongst others) were "all in the mind!".

Part of their bullying was to disallow me to have my Blood Testing Meter, strips etc., plus snacks which I had discreetly hidden away in a purpose made pouch in a coat pocket; meal times were disrupted oe even taken away by an utterly crazy shift pattern which was designed to seriously impact with me medically.

I was stuck deep in the Highlands of Scotland, couldn't afford to get away for job searching but equally couldn't afford to be out of work and it was a vicious circle. Ultimately, I walked out after the company tried to ban my Union Rep and legal team from representing me at hearings brought into the equation when illness, including Diabetic episodes, caused me to miss work.

My next move to an altogether utterly different employer demonstrated how the whole scenario could be and was handled. I am only sorry, in hindsight, that I didn't get out sooner than I did; equally, a great number of those colleagues I left behind have suffered in a similar way, such that some left under medical duress but some are still there to this day. Others in the same company at other sites are bullied to be back at work or face dismissal, literally days after having major medical surgery. Regrettably, some companies still exist in this day and age..... and seem to get away with it!

Under this government, modern slavery is rife... workers no longer have rights, written into the law or not- there is no one to implement and enforce it. The companies are too powerful and the workers are too scared to take action to be left out of a job and end up on welfare which doesn't meet your needs along with the stigma attached to it! Seems like we are back in the Dickensian era! Sad!

 

[Polarice]

Whilst I have no grounds to challenge your experience, I think it would be highly unusual if the member were asking their employer to make concessions to their diabetes that it would not be reasonable that the employer be satisfied such a request were justified.

I'm sure there are ways of doing this, but otherwise there might just be an explosion of people looking for all sorts of concessions.

I know, from a relatives experiences a couple of years ago that certain areas of the public sector can be brutal in the ways they go about ascertaining the veracity of such a request.

----------

I worked in the civil service and my employer was very good, it was the lower level managers who were the problem, trying to assert their little bit of power !

Employees with a long term health problem now have the legal right to ask for 'reasonable adjustments' to allow then to manage their ilness. Having medication with you is not an unreasonable request to make, nor is it unreasonable to expect them to agree to.

But as I said, ask for an independent health assessment and the assessor will inform the employer of their responsibilities. Again, if you have no luck, speak to citizens advice; they have vast experience of these sort of events and can you advise on how to proceed in your local area.

 

[kev-w]

I'm sad this **** still happens, I lost my well paid job as a toolmaker at the end of 1994 as I had my 8 hour days changed to 12 hour rotating shifts after a year of 'torture' (shortly before the 1995 disability at work act) no union and new management, lies & subterfuge, long story short I struggled a month with the shifts and lost over a stone in weight, I thought I'd got a get out of jail card from my manager but he lied in the final disciplinary meeting abut our agreement, I received my final written, my suspension & summary dismissal notice in the meeting, the manager winked at me on the way out so I punched him (I know I know, it's not the right thing to do, but I've no regrets), and by the time I'd got my tools together had gained a second dismissal notice.

I clean windows on a part time basis these days, at my own pace....

 

[prancer53]

Hello, I wonder if anyone else has had been asked to "prove you have diabetes" by an employer? my employer has asked for my current medical records, I spoke to the doctor he said he would limit it to the current problems I have and it might help at work, he thinks it may prompt occupational health assessment which may help me. I got called in to the office and during the meeting I complained that under the current 5s inspection they wanted my snack and meter removed together with my phone, I had told them the phone was for ICE and I had imformed them many times I was diabetic and needed sometimes to monitor my sugar and snack if low.
Hence the request to prove I had diabetes

Anyone else had similar problems...

I was once asked by a manager what I had in my (rather large bag) I replied using 1 word "food".

 

[prancer53]

I now do supply teaching which has been seriously affected by education cuts. Recently I was sent to a school & informed, only when I arrived there, that I would have to do lunch duty as well. Lunch was 30 minutes & I was expected to be in the dining room at the correct time (no time for loo to do test & jab & had to go through dining room to get to it so would probably have been stopped by another member of staff). I rushed to the staff room, reached into a locker for my handbag & had a jab then & there. No one said anything & I got into the dining room only a couple of minutes late--they did provide me with a lunch which was cold by the time I waited for porcine insulin to work.....happy days......!!!

 

[prancer53]

Frankly I found work easier without "protective" legislation for disabled workers......personal view, you understand....