Doing the Newcastle

bulkbiker

BANNED
Messages
19,575
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Hi @Begonia,
I'm not aware of any original research by Fung but he does reference his work very extensively. Maybe others have come across original scientific material but I've only seen the popular blog material which does contain some data, just not peer-reviewed and published in journals. But I have a number of problems with some of the things Fung says. For example, in the Obesity Code book he actually says (...quick pause to check...) that excess protein is stored in the body. In fact, that's completely untrue. Excess protein isn't simply stored as protein. The body cannot store protein. It first gets broken down into amino acids which are then metabolised. So although he's carefully examined the research of others, and he has a wealth of clinical experience, some of his generalisations are questionable, to my mind. I think his emphasis on glucose metabolism provides less convincing explanation than Taylor's Twin Cycle Hypothesis, and Taylor did measure the lipid changes in liver and pancreas, a level of biochemical study which has previously been missing from the literature. I think Taylor's work can completely explain Fung's results but not necessarily vice versa which speaks to the adequacy of the theories. I'm going to read Fung's obesity book again because it might read differently in the context of Taylor's work and I'm sure to have missed stuff the first time. It's never a bad idea for me to question my own thinking.

By the way, the results of the DIRECT trial were made available on 5th December:
http://www.directclinicaltrial.org.uk

Please try and remember that Dr Fung is a practising doctor who treats patients not a research scientist like Prof Taylor.
He doesn't do research he helps people get better (which some say that Prof Taylor does too although this is tangential to his studies).
Dr Fung tries to explain things in layman's terms to enable understanding.. he's not looking for peer kudos.
And yes I am a major fan.
 

Begonia

Well-Known Member
Messages
120
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Treatment type
I do not have diabetes
Hi @Begonia,
I'm not aware of any original research by Fung but he does reference his work very extensively. Maybe others have come across original scientific material but I've only seen the popular blog material which does contain some data, just not peer-reviewed and published in journals. But I have a number of problems with some of the things Fung says. For example, in the Obesity Code book he actually says (...quick pause to check...) that excess protein is stored in the body. In fact, that's completely untrue. Excess protein isn't simply stored as protein. The body cannot store protein. It first gets broken down into amino acids which are then metabolised. So although he's carefully examined the research of others, and he has a wealth of clinical experience, some of his generalisations are questionable, to my mind. I think his emphasis on glucose metabolism provides less convincing explanation than Taylor's Twin Cycle Hypothesis, and Taylor did measure the lipid changes in liver and pancreas, a level of biochemical study which has previously been missing from the literature. I think Taylor's work can completely explain Fung's results but not necessarily vice versa which speaks to the adequacy of the theories. I'm going to read Fung's obesity book again because it might read differently in the context of Taylor's work and I'm sure to have missed stuff the first time. It's never a bad idea for me to question my own thinking.

By the way, the results of the DIRECT trial were made available on 5th December:
http://www.directclinicaltrial.org.uk
It would be really interesting if there were some research on Dr Fung's theories even if not conducted by him personally (as @bulkbiker points out, he is a medical doctor treating patients rather than a researcher). Re the DIRECT study, the results I've seen so far show correlation between the amount of weight lost and the percentage who achieved 'remission'. I think I read somewhere that a subset of the participants had MRI scans to assess fat in their pancreas. I'm interested to see whether these results show a correlation between pancreatic fat and 'remission', thus supporting Prof Taylor's twin cycle hypothesis. (I know there was a previous study that showed this, but from memory it seemed quite a small sample.)


Hi @Begonia,
I'm not aware of any original research by Fung but he does reference his work very extensively. Maybe others have come across original scientific material but I've only seen the popular blog material which does contain some data, just not peer-reviewed and published in journals. But I have a number of problems with some of the things Fung says. For example, in the Obesity Code book he actually says (...quick pause to check...) that excess protein is stored in the body. In fact, that's completely untrue. Excess protein isn't simply stored as protein. The body cannot store protein. It first gets broken down into amino acids which are then metabolised. So although he's carefully examined the research of others, and he has a wealth of clinical experience, some of his generalisations are questionable, to my mind. I think his emphasis on glucose metabolism provides less convincing explanation than Taylor's Twin Cycle Hypothesis, and Taylor did measure the lipid changes in liver and pancreas, a level of biochemical study which has previously been missing from the literature. I think Taylor's work can completely explain Fung's results but not necessarily vice versa which speaks to the adequacy of the theories. I'm going to read Fung's obesity book again because it might read differently in the context of Taylor's work and I'm sure to have missed stuff the first time. It's never a bad idea for me to question my own thinking.

By the way, the results of the DIRECT trial were made available on 5th December:
http://www.directclinicaltrial.org.uk
 

AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
It would be really interesting if there were some research on Dr Fung's theories even if not conducted by him personally (as @bulkbiker points out, he is a medical doctor treating patients rather than a researcher). Re the DIRECT study, the results I've seen so far show correlation between the amount of weight lost and the percentage who achieved 'remission'. I think I read somewhere that a subset of the participants had MRI scans to assess fat in their pancreas. I'm interested to see whether these results show a correlation between pancreatic fat and 'remission', thus supporting Prof Taylor's twin cycle hypothesis. (I know there was a previous study that showed this, but from memory it seemed quite a small sample.)
Yes, I think Fung has a huge amount of clinical experience and clearly has a lot of success with patients. I'm not knocking that at all. Turning that clinical experience and treatment into a consistent explanatory theory would enable the treatment to be refined and made more effective. There are things that Fung says which are questionable and sometimes simply wrong - as in the case of protein storage but maybe that was just an editorial slip. I'm going to re-read it. All of these studies and experience contribute to a better understanding. I too am interested in seeing any controlled trials of Fung's theories but as yet, I don't know of any.

I recall an interview with Taylor where he said that the detailed biochemistry of pancreatic recovery following loss of fat was very much still being researched but he has a lot of evidence showing how central that is to remission so I guess he'll publish more as it's investigated. It certainly looks on the money.
 
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ringi

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,365
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Finding the meal replacement drinks a bit sicky-sweet. Don't have a sweet tooth. Thinking of clear soup such as knorr Chicken Noodle, French Onion, Minestrone. Suggestions?

"The 8 week blood suger diet" shows how to get 800 cals a day with real food.

Taylor says in the question at the end of one of his talks that vitimans etc are not importanant as all "well fed people" will be able to cope with a diet that lacks some vitimans etc for 8 week, therefore he says not to stress about the details.

Someone on this forum did it with tinned soaps a few months ago, sorry I can't remember who it was.
 
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ringi

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,365
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Doing any control study of diets is close to impossible, as people know what they are eating, and often don’t eat what you tell them, or tell you what they have eaten. (Akins comes out well, as most people stop eating a lot of suger even if they don't keep to anything else.)

The best you can do is study the effect of giving people different information and support packages. (Or do very short studies where you "jail" eveyone taking part.)

Everyone including Dr Fung agree that the first step is to remove the fat from the liver, and that it cannot be done without depleting the glycogen (solid glucose) stored in the liver.

Excess protein gets converted into glucose by the liver then stored as glycogen and/or fat. So the body does store excess protein, just not in a way that allows it to be converted back into protein. (Excess protein makes me want to stop eating, unlike excess carbs.)

Also remember that bone broth contains more protein then most people admit too along with some calorie. So you could say that long term fasting using Dr Fung methods is a very very low calorie minimum protein, no carbs, diet.
 

Roytaylorjasonfunglover

Well-Known Member
Messages
272
Type of diabetes
Family member
Treatment type
I do not have diabetes
Alcala Bob, you are doing an amazing job. Keep up with that exquisite progress reporting, and may your progress be as good as your exhaustive reporting!
 
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AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Week 4 Day 22 Monday 1st January. FBG 6.5 Weight 101.7kg

I can't see any reason for the slight rise in FBG except that I reduced the insulin down to 30 units a few days ago. Since then the level has risen little by little. My cough has gone, I don't feel ill, I haven't eaten anything that might be responsible. I've decided to keep the insulin at 30 for another day or two as I don't want to increase it again. But I do want to see it down to the 5s again. Not happy with the 6s. Just have to watch the level and see if it comes down again tomorrow. The weight is doing its own thing but no change to the plan. It'll be half-way next Monday. Already thinking that I might continue it a bit longer if the weight still hasn't come down enough. It's not a hardship and it could be doing a lot of good.
 
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Providence 62

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Messages
933
Type of diabetes
LADA
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Not riding my bike
Week 4 Day 22 Monday 1st January. FBG 6.5 Weight 101.7kg

I can't see any reason for the slight rise in FBG except that I reduced the insulin down to 30 units a few days ago. Since then the level has risen little by little. My cough has gone, I don't feel ill, I haven't eaten anything that might be responsible. I've decided to keep the insulin at 30 for another day or two as I don't want to increase it again. But I do want to see it down to the 5s again. Not happy with the 6s. Just have to watch the level and see if it comes down again tomorrow. The weight is doing its own thing but no change to the plan. It'll be half-way next Monday. Already thinking that I might continue it a bit longer if the weight still hasn't come down enough. It's not a hardship and it could be doing a lot of good.

Keep at it Bob, the body does all sorts of strange things, sometimes you have to persevere for a few days. My blood sugar is all over the place at the moment. Probably need a bit more exercise, but the next few days will show. Hope you have a good New Year's Day and I will be following you to see how this pans out.

P
 
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AlcalaBob

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Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Excess protein gets converted into glucose by the liver then stored as glycogen and/or fat. So the body does store excess protein, just not in a way that allows it to be converted back into protein.
Yes, this business of the protein metabolism in the liver can be very confusing and I've seen this account many times, but it's important to see the difference between protein breakdown (proteolysis) and glucose synthesis (gluconeogenesis) because they are completely different metabolic pathways. If protein gets converted into glucose by the liver, then a diet high in protein would tend to eventually deposit fat, it would be a lipogenic diet. But as Fung, Taubes and others have pointed out, that doesn't generally happen - though it is possible to engineer it to happen. Protein breakdown produces intermediates that can feed into fatty acid metabolism, glucose metabolism, or ketone metabolism. For those interested in the details... and of course, not everyone is even in the slightest bit interested in the details... but for those who are:

The process of protein catalysis involves breaking down the proteins into their individual amino acids, removing the nitrogen through a process called deamination/transamination, to produce a range of breakdown products, none of which can be converted into glucose - their chemistry renders that impossible. Instead, the amino acids enter a cycle of reactions called the Citric Acid cycle. This produces a compound called oxalocitrate which again isn't glucose or directly related to it. The oxalocitrate is converted to something called phosphoenolpyruvate and that enters another distinct pathway in which fructose phosphate is eventually synthesised which is then finally converted to glucose. The conversion has nothing to do with amino acids - phosphoenolpyruvate is simply one of the metabolic products of carbohydrate metabolism. The intermediates in the Citric Acid cycle feed into the production of ketones, fatty acids, and glucose. The amine groups from the amino acids are converted into urea in the urea cycle and will be excreted.

It's complicated, of course, but each of the intermediate chemicals have been isolated and identified and the details of the pathways and how they are controlled are not at all controversial. I'm not aware that anyone challenges this very well-established and evidenced account. In any case, it can be checked up easily enough. The body cannot store proteins nor amino acids. The two energy stores we have are triglycerides and glycogen and that's it. The path from proteins to ketones, fats, and glucose involves the complete degradation of the amino acids into simple substrates and these feed back into very different anabolic pathways. If we misunderstand this, we misunderstand the role of protein in the diet. There are plenty of sources online where we can dig further into the details of all this. Of course, it's rather pedantic to worry about this stuff (and to pick up on it, for which apologies to those irritated by such nerdiness on my part) and as long as we stick to the plan, we should see the results. For me, it's important to avoid the potential confusion about how things work, but for very many people, it really doesn't matter too much, and certainly not at this level of detail.

Good luck and every success to everyone else starting the ND this new year.
 
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Tabbyjoolz

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Messages
557
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Cruelty, bigotry
@AlcalaBob - I’ve enjoyed your posts immensely. I’ve just started ND today; excited and a little apprehensive.
 

AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Week 4 Day 23 Tuesday January 2nd. FBG 5.9 Weight 99.9kg.

Quite pleased today. Double figures with the weight at last, and the blood is back down to the 5s. Neither by very much of a margin but certainly in the right direction. I had a bit of a rise with the BG following my cut of the insulin to 30 units but it now seems the liver has responded and has brought it down again. Since high insulin increases insulin resistance, it's always been a trade with the devil to reduce blood sugar that way. I think Taubes described it as winding the handle on the insulin resistance pump. Lower insulin should encourage less insulin resistance. So I'm glad to also be reducing the medication at the same time as getting good control. I've already resisted the well-meaning suggestion that I should now 'reward' myself for reaching the weight mini-milestone - I had to say that I see it as a recovery rather than a triumph but it was a nice thought which I appreciated. I'm still very pleased but not letting up at all. It's not difficult for me to continue as I seem to be in quite a comfortable routine. Very positive today.
 

ringi

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Messages
3,365
Type of diabetes
Type 2
As to the FBG, I think you will be very safe with it up to 10 for a few weeks, also having your 2hr post skake BG as high as 10. Therefore as we know that insulin can slow down weight loss, if it was me, I would be a little more relaxed about BG levels. (If I had to choose a target FBG to aim at with the insulin dose, 7 would not be a bad option.)
 
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AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
As to the FBG, I think you will be very safe with it up to 10 for a few weeks, also having your 2hr post skake BG as high as 10. Therefore as we know that insulin can slow down weight loss, if it was me, I would be a little more relaxed about BG levels. (If I had to choose a target FBG to aim at with the insulin dose, 7 would not be a bad option.)
Yes, I take the point. Some folks prefer to stop all the meds from the outset but I was a little more, perhaps too, cautious. I agree that for a short while it won't make a lot of difference but one of my primary aims is to get and maintain very good control so, since it doesn't take any more effort, I might as well reduce the insulin bit by bit and watch the numbers carefully. I think you're right that the weight loss was slowed down by the continued presence of the insulin. It might well have come down quicker had I stopped all meds at the outset. And as I'm able to reduce the meds at the same time, getting good control seems a workable goal, at least so far. I just feel a lot happier with numbers in the 5s than 6s or 7s. If this level of BG is maintained, at my present rate of reduction of insulin, I should be off all the meds by the end of the eight weeks, which will please me no end. Thanks for your helpful comment. Much appreciated.
 
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AlcalaBob

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Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Week 4 Day 24 Wednesday 3rd January. FBG 6.7 Weight 101.1kg

Again no clear reason as to why the blood should have risen again. Nothing at all eaten that could explain this. I've been at 30 units of insulin for five days. Insulin of course slows down weight loss and the liver recovery is slowed down if weight loss is slowed down. Potentially that means that I could slow the weight loss so much that recovery of the pancreas will take an inordinately long time to occur, which would consequently leave me dependent on insulin for a long time and the treatment could stall in a loop. So I'm trying a mini-experiment. Today I've reduced my insulin to 20 units and we'll see what that does to the blood glucose level. If it goes up by not too much, I'll stick with it and see what happens to the weight loss. More weight loss should result in less insulin resistance and therefore better control again. If it goes up too much, I'll have to increase the insulin again. (I'll be pondering what might be too much.) It seems like a rock and a hard place, or at least somewhere between cold turkey and a cold shake...

Thanks to @ringi for stimulating consideration of this mini-experiment. It's almost as if, at this stage in the diet, those on insulin might have to manage the dose down to a level below that which prevents weight loss. I wouldn't recommend stopping the insulin totally at the outset unless you have the support of your GP. In my case, he's not supportive and he'd just tell me to go back on all the meds... It'll be interesting to see what happens over the next few days.
 
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AlcalaBob

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Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Keep going @AlcalaBob you are doing brilliantly. There will always be unexplained blips and glitches with this mysterious disease.
Thanks. No question of changing the plan or dropping out. Totally committed to seeing it through and even, if necessary, extending it a while. It's good to try to figure out what's going on individually at the moment but we already have the evidence from Taylor and others about the success of the method. If I turn out to be one of the non-responders, that will at least be clear but only if I stick to the ND. I'm not at all despondent, more intrigued.
 

ringi

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Messages
3,365
Type of diabetes
Type 2
If I turn out to be one of the non-responders, that will at least be clear but only if I stick to the ND. I'm not at all despondent, more intrigued.

Rememberr that even the "non-responders" got much improved BG control while using lower does of drugs/inslin. The only people who did not benfit at all, are the people who "cheated" and lost no weight.
 

AlcalaBob

Well-Known Member
Messages
178
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Rememberr that even the "non-responders" got much improved BG control while using lower does of drugs/inslin. The only people who did not benfit at all, are the people who "cheated" and lost no weight.
Quite so. I'm already benefiting enormously so there's every incentive to keep at it. I looked at the non-responders in Taylor's data and he makes the point that weight loss of around 11kg dropped the BG down on average from 10.4 to 7 but that "this abnormal level presaged the all-too-familiar deterioration of control" so stopping at 11kg weight loss may seem like a success but it's statistically associated with eventually losing control again. Some folks pat themselves on the back before reaching the most effective level of weight loss. Good to know in case there's a kind of diet fatigue and too early a sense of achievement. Those last kilos obviously make an enormous difference so we have to be in it for the whole deal. My target is 20kg loss, down to 86kg so I might well have to extend the ND beyond the eight weeks. I won't know if I'm a non-responder until I've reached that and maintained it for a while. Thanks for your support. Much appreciated.
 
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ringi

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Messages
3,365
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Quite so. I'm already benefiting enormously so there's every incentive to keep at it. I looked at the non-responders in Taylor's data and he makes the point that weight loss of around 11kg dropped the BG down on average from 10.4 to 7 but that "this abnormal level presaged the all-too-familiar deterioration of control" so stopping at 11kg weight loss may seem like a success but it's statistically associated with eventually losing control again.

But we know about the power of low carb and "eating to your meter" to retain the level of control and stop regaining the weight. If only Taylor promoted the same methods for poeple who had complete the ND........