I don't believe it.........!!

noblehead

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Shame on Channel 4 and the BMJ for running this article! :evil:

Analogue insulins have without doubt revolutionised diabetes control and helped people lead normal lives including myself. So what if they are more expensive, surely having insulin's available that best match the absorption of food and keep bg within normal range is better than dealing with the aftermath of uncontrolled diabetes?

I'll say no more!

Nigel
 

Patch

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,981
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Unfortunately we're an easy target. Highly visible. If we knew what all of the tax money went on, we'd have plenty of other stuff to complain about.

Like I said - we're an easy target.

BMJ shouldn't concern themselves with costs.
 

iddt01

Active Member
Messages
25
Hi all

I think there are a couple of points that need to be made here. Firstly Channel 4 were not right to mention people with T2 specifically, the figure quoted of £250m actually represents the amount spent by the NHS on treating all patients with diabetes, regardless of type and the lady interviewed, Christine Crump, actually has T1. I also think that the programme was more designed to question the ethical operation of the drug companies and to question the basis on which health professionals make their prescribing decisions, as they are certainly not following NICE guidance!

Secondly, we have to bear in mind that there are a significant number of people who are not able to tolerate either synthetic or human insulins and therefore the issues of patient choice and quality of life also must be considered.

Thirdly, the article about this on this website is wrong on several points - not least in that it refers to"human insulin donors"!!!
 

iddt01

Active Member
Messages
25
One final point and then I promise I will shut up:

The BMJ is actually part of the free press and as such can concern themselves with whatever they so wish - including their concerns that NICE guidance(based on cost-effectiveness!) is followed.
 
C

catherinecherub

Guest
Whilst this may have been over simplified, I have read some comments about this today. There have been some less than charitable comments about this about Type 2's on blogs of Type 1's.


Comments have included that older Type 2's do not need to have tight control and they should be alright on the cheaper ones.

I hope that this comment was said tongue in cheek, "It's those Type 2's again, increasing in numbers and wanting expensive drugs".

It also concerns me as to what the viewers make of this item. Does it reinforce the view that Type 2's should be grateful for anything as they brought this condition on themselves.

If some media types were suddenly diagnosed with uncontrolled Type 2 diabetes I am sure that their headlines would change and they would be out to prove that the stereotypical Type 2 is not the case.

We get a very bad press and I just wish that some media would do a more truthful piece than slagging us off as fat lazy individuals who deserve all we get.

Treatments have to be individualised and we do not demand expensive insulins but take what is offered to us.

Why should a Type 2's quality of life not be as important as anyone else who is suffering from a chronic condition?

I have been very lucky with the help I have obtained and this has meant that I have been able to manage my diabetes to date without medication. If the time comes when I need medication and or insulin then I would like to think that my interests are at the heart of the decision and not some bean counter who cannot balance the numbers.
 

HLW

Well-Known Member
Messages
723
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
I thought it was strange that it mentioned type 2 diabetes and not type 1. Why is it OK for me to be prescribed expensive insulin but not someone with type 2 diabetes? It also says analogue insulins only offer 'modest' improvements, but surely any improvement is worth it, I'm sure the cost of diabetic complications to the NHS is massive.

I think someone's been reading that iddt website, and all their anti-analogue insulin propaganda.
 

janabelle

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HLW,
I, and many other people are very grateful to what you call IDDT propaganda!! :twisted:
Lantus ruined my life, and I am infuriated that the side-effects are being ignored / unrecognised by a blinkered medical profession. God only knows how much the unneccessary referrals and subsequent tests, hospital visits and admissions, as a direct result of analogue insulin side-effects cost the NHS?
Of course not everyone suffers these problems but there are a growing number of insulin-users suffering quality of life issues who are/will be grateful for the existance of the IDDT I can assure you!
As far as I am aware the results of the clinical trials for Lantus and the like were based solely on Hba1c results, and only over a maximum period of a few months. If i'd known I was taking part in an on-going clinical trial I would feel less bitter, but I , like most people,naievly trusted my diabetes clinic to make the best choice for me. You live and you learn, and sometimes the hard way :(
You might want to take a look at the comments at the bottom of this page ..
http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/lantus-ins ... ncer-4614/
Jus
 

HLW

Well-Known Member
Messages
723
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
do you realise what you, and that whole website, sound like?: waa waa, I can't use analogue insulin, so no-one else should have the opportunity!

Is it just lantus you have an issue with, or all analogue insulins? If your diabetes clinic are useless, and didn't explain the possible side effects of insulins, and that the analogue insulins are new, (mine explained both, and refused to prescribe lantus as a first choice due to the possible cancer risk) I hope you made a formal complaint about them. Did you? If people accept poor treatment from the NHS the NHS will never improve.

Metformin made me ill, it made me very bloated and then very sick every few weeks, so was very dangerous for me to take with insulin, as the throwing up would start at night, after I had eaten and injected novorapid (oh noes made by evil NovoNordisk, from evil GM organisms! evil evil), and after I had taken my night time dose of levemir (oh noes made by evil etc etc). This made me go very low, I assume none or very little of the food had been digested. So I had to stop taking metformin. Does this mean I have set up an anti-metformin propaganda website? No, I haven't. Metformin helps a lot of people, if I can't take it that doesn't mean other people should be put off from taking it.

I honestly thought the iddt website was some kind of joke when I first read it. I can't be bothered to reread it and I don't want to increase there number of page views, but the most idiotic things I read on there were:
- they were hosting an article by a doctor who was recommending just urine tests for controlling insulin dependant diabetes. How on earth do they think it is acceptable to host such dangerous advice?
- they complain about human insulins being called 'human', as they do not come from humans. Did they honestly think that the insulin companies had a human abattoir out back where they killed people and harvested their insulin?
- then they complain about some insulin company dropping the 'human' part of some insulin name! make up,your minds, do you want it called human or not?
- they go on and on about genetic modifcation. Do they not realise this is how many things are made? Almost all cheese you encounter in this country will have vegetarian rennet, which is made from GM bacteria, for example. Do they think that eating cheese will make you grow two heads or something? I really don't know what their issue is here really.
- I just looked at the front page, they now have a petition against mixtard being withdrawn. Do they have an alternative manufacturer in mind (I'm not going back to look as I don't want to increase page views)? NovoNordisk exist to make money, like any other company, they can't be forced to make a product they don't think is profitable enough.
- many times on that website it says analogue insulins can kill. Of course they can, they are insulin. If they couldn't kill, they'd be pretty useless, as their function is to lower blood sugar, which can be fatal. Interestingly, nowhere does it say some of the hypos and deaths caused by people changing from animal to analogue insulins will be due to people not reducing the number of units taken when changing from animal to analogue insulins, which should always be done. Why does it not mention that this should be done? It's very useful and important information.

There were many other ridiculous things on that website, but as I said I'm not going to increase their page views by re-reading them in detail.

The website also has lots of very useful and important information, eg I saw just now a hospital insulin checklist thing on the front page, that is very important to have, so you can keep control of your medication if you are in hospital. Also like you say it lists possible side effects, which are also useful to know. It's just has a lot of other mad insane nonsense too, it reads like some conspiracy theory website, which is a shame.
 

janabelle

Well-Known Member
Messages
816
Dislikes
Lack of choice of insulin for newly diagnosed patients.
Dog owners who let their dogs poop in the street-a hazard for most, but worse if you're visually impaired!
Having RP
HLW,
I have no involvement with the IDDT, except that if it wasn't for them I would undoubtedly be in an even worse state , while being told that i was suffering from fibromyalgia IBS and depression. My problem was with Lantus, and not one medical professional recognised it as being Lantus related. Analogue insulin side-effects are not recognised, as I have previously stated, by most doctors, although my diabetes clinic's attitude is changing. You are very lucky to have had things explained to you and your doctor sounds a wise man, but many are not so fortunate. Get real, the only side-effect of insulin treatment any doc will tell you about is Hypoglycaemia! Yes, i made a formal complaint against my diabetes consultant for failing to write the truth in my notes and merely reporting me as "well controlled" as my Hba1c was within the normal range. She failed to report in my notes that my BG levels were unstable and erratic, and the ill health I was suffering complained about at every appointment for 4 years.
As for suggesting that no one uses analogue insulins because some don't get on with it,- just count yourself lucky and let the less fortunate have their eyes opened to the possible problems they might encounter.
As for comparing it to side-effects of metformin or other drugs; the difference is that there will be alternatives to such drugs. Have you failed to notice that drug companies have been disontinuing many of their insulins? Novo Nordisk plan to disontinue ALL "human insulins" and only produce analogues in the future. Both Novo Nordisk and and Ely Lily have already discontinued their animal insulin ranges. There is NO evidence that analgogues are any more effective than synthetic "human" insulins, as there was never any evidence that synthetic "human" insulins were any more effective than animal insulins. Yet the choice is being taken away from patients. Can you not see where we are going here and how patients will suffer as a result?? Or if it's not affecting you, does it not bother you?
Call it a conspiracy theory website if you like, but I think you're being a tad naive.
Jus
 

HLW

Well-Known Member
Messages
723
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
Of course Novo Nordisk and Ely Lily have discontinued their animal insulins, the analogue ones are much more profitable. They only exist to make money, like all companies, not to provide patient choice. They would love everyone to use their new expensive patented insulins, of course they would, it would make them more money, that is what they are for. It's not some secret hidden conspiracy that the iddt website has uncovered.

Non-animal insulin have a very big advantage over animal insulins for many people.

Also, again with the "human"! Why the quotes? Of course it doesn't really come from humans, no-one would think it did, you don't need quotes to make it obvious...

Did you have the same problems with levemir as you did with lantus?

The patient information leaflets for novorapid and levemir list loads of possible side effects other than hypoglycemia, I assume lantus is the same, so saying the only side effect doctors mention is hypoglycemia is a bit silly, as anyone should read the patient information leaflet before taking any medication so will be fully aware of all possible (recognised) side effects.
 

DiabeticVeteran

Well-Known Member
Messages
55
I would like to comment on some things here & I am sorry if it does offend.

FIRSTLY,I would like to state that I am not affiliated with any Company or Organisation.

Why was it a shame regarding Channel 4 & the BMJ for running the article? I don't understand.

The main topic was to do with costs of the Analogue insulins associated with beneficial control with Diabetes!?!

For a start, from what i have read, there is NO evidence to state that there is any better control over this group of insulins as opposed to using the older Synthetic insulins and the "Original" Animal insulins. Going from reports & patients concerns dating back at least 10 years!!

Where is the hard proof that Analogue Insulins have revolutionised the better control in Diabetics???
Until this question has been significantly answered, there really cant be a significant Bias towards this insulin group!.

I can only speak for myself here, I come off Analogues because of the lack of Control it gave me.The sudden, constant hypo's i was facing, the whipsawing of BG readings, which caused me to obtain Hypo Unawareness, me feeling achey, lifeless, gained excessive weight & generally ill and from this, costing the NHS, 3 to 4 times more money to keep me alive over the 8 year period!
Now, I am using the old faithful Animal insulins & yes, from this, I feel a normal person... BG control is terrific, no sudden hypos, I have gained my awareness & its the fittest i have been in along time!
There needs to be the Variety of Insulins available on the market for this very reason..... Compatability & the Patients Choice. I therefore was not suited to Human Analogues, other people are, I work well on the older, Animal insulins & I would bet money on this that others feel the same way.

Many thanks :mrgreen:
 

DiabeticVeteran

Well-Known Member
Messages
55
HLW,

The general Insulin market need to have the different Insulin groups readily available for Diabetics for one reason, compatability!
Who knows buddy, in two years time, the Analogue insulin you are on at the moment may decide to give you a nasty reaction which would then cause you to change Insulin groups?!?!
When this happens ( & it will), then you will appreciate where some of us are coming from.

With every drug that is made, there is a side effect which can affect us....... Human Synthetic/analogue Insulins are drugs, made in a Laboratory aren't they????

It is not about slandering people/companies, I & others on this forum are giving the experiences from what has happened in our life's & this should never be ignored!
This forum is a good research portal for all types of people directly & indirectly involved with Diabetes.

The IDDT, just like NICE & the other great organisations, are a good point of resource for us all & i feel, it is very unprofessional to **** them off!
I, for one, owe alot to these great people!

Who knows, my friend, you may feel the same way in the future!

Cheers :mrgreen:
 
C

catherinecherub

Guest
Whilst I am sympathetic to anyone having had a bad experience with any form of insulin, that is not what the OP was about.
I see no sense in the way that this thread is going as it has been well and truly derailed.
 

iddt01

Active Member
Messages
25
I would agree with catherine, this thread has gone way OT. I would like to re-state that Channel 4 were wrong to identify people with T2 as being the sole cause of this huge unnecesary financial burden. This is clearly NOT the case and I can see how it would cause offence to anyone with T2 who uses insulin.
 

janabelle

Well-Known Member
Messages
816
Dislikes
Lack of choice of insulin for newly diagnosed patients.
Dog owners who let their dogs poop in the street-a hazard for most, but worse if you're visually impaired!
Having RP
Sorry Catherine for assisting in the derailment of the OP,
I agree it's not fair that Type-2s get a bad press. It's wrong that type-2s are often percieved as having brought on the conditon themselves due to weight, diet, etc, when it's obviously more complicated than that. I only wish that Diabetes UK would to more to curb these misconceptions and educate the lay person.
Sadly with more cuts imminent within the NHS, it's likely that Type-2s will be treated more shodily than they are already. I strongly believe that type-2s should be given the tools to self-test and control their condition, but as we know this is often deemed as unneccessary by the medical proffession. :( Complications of uncontrolled diabetes type-1 & 2 will undoubtedly cause more financial strain on the NHS than the cost of insulins, analogue or otherwise.
Jus
 

Squadron Leader

Active Member
Messages
29
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Heigh-ho Chaps,

I happened to be watching channel 4 news when that item aired and what I got from it was the suggestion that all type 2's were on insulin...

The item opened with a short interview with a woman who was upset that the insulin she was on was being withdrawn by the manufacturer (sp?) and that the other insulins made her ill. The item then went on to asking why there was this push towards newer analogue insulins, as they cost 2-3 times as much as earlier insulins but don't seem to offer 2-3 times the benefit. They also wondered why HCP's were going against NICE guidelines in prescribing them.

Now, I know nothing about the different types of insulin, so I'm not going to make any comment on which one is better, or what should be prescribed in the first instance.

One thing I did notice was that the models they used in the item didn't look like type 2's to me. They were slim, (yes, I know there are slim type 2's out there - please don't flame me!) and appeared to be in their twenties. That's definately not a typical "2".

TBH, most people know of diabetes, but unless they know someone with the condition, very few will know the difference between the two main types.

I was recently asked by someone in the healthcare profession if type 2 was the "good" version to have. I explained to her that there was no "good" version when it came to diabetes!

So although the item was interesting, I certainly didn't get the impression that 2's deserved a lower standard of treatment, more that the manufacturers were more interested in making big profits (Suprise, suprise!) and that the poor DSN's were being hoodwinked by the reps smooth sales patter.

But that's just my impression...

K