Remission: Fasting mimicking diet vs New Castle

VictorVillalobos

Active Member
Messages
36
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Other
Hi,
I am very curious to hear opinions comparing two methods of caloric restriction aiming for diabetes remission
1. The "New Castle diet", 8 week very low calorie diet, throughly discussed in these forums, versus
2. The Valter Longo approach of periodic fasting

If you have tried either one, what are your thoughts?

Here are some scientific references, for the inclined to read those:
1. New Castle initial study. See "cited in ..." to the side to get an update of further research.
2. Longo's mimicking diet. See "cited in ..." to the side to get an update of further research.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kumera

northernnerd

Member
Messages
6
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Hi,
I am very curious to hear opinions comparing two methods of caloric restriction aiming for diabetes remission
1. The "New Castle diet", 8 week very low calorie diet, throughly discussed in these forums, versus
2. The Valter Longo approach of periodic fasting

If you have tried either one, what are your thoughts?

Here are some scientific references, for the inclined to read those:
1. New Castle initial study. See "cited in ..." to the side to get an update of further research.
2. Longo's mimicking diet. See "cited in ..." to the side to get an update of further research.

Not sure if you're still following this... I understand that the Newcastle diet must be followed for months (5-6 I believe) but the mimicking diet is only for 5 days a month. They seem to be pretty similar foods/calorie content as well. 5 days at 800 calories sound a lot better to me. Based on my understanding, the effects are quite similar as well.
 

Grateful

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,398
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Hi, I am very curious to hear opinions comparing two methods of caloric restriction aiming for diabetes remission...

In case you are still here, I am curious to know why you feel the need for additional intervention if your HBA1c is already down to 4.9% (30). How did you achieve that result in the first place?
 

Art Of Flowers

Well-Known Member
Messages
956
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
The biggest difference between intermittent fasting and the Newcastle diet is that with intermittent fasting you have two phases fasting and feasting (end of fast). The combination of these two phases helps the body to repair itself by a process called autophagy. See https://www.dietdoctor.com/renew-body-fasting-autophagy

There was an interesting documentary on fasting by the BBC by Michael Moseley called "Eat, Fast and Live Longer" See ...


What Michael realised was that fasting alternate days was more effective than a continuous fast. However, if you are dramatically overweight the 8 week low calorie program may help shift much of the visceral fat around the liver and pancreas. Michael Mosley supports a 8 week 800 calorie diet and 5:2 intermittent fasting on his website www.thebloodsugardiet.com
 

northernnerd

Member
Messages
6
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
The biggest difference between intermittent fasting and the Newcastle diet is that with intermittent fasting you have two phases fasting and feasting (end of fast). The combination of these two phases helps the body to repair itself by a process called autophagy. See https://www.dietdoctor.com/renew-body-fasting-autophagy

There was an interesting documentary on fasting by the BBC by Michael Moseley called "Eat, Fast and Live Longer" See ...


What Michael realised was that fasting alternate days was more effective than a continuous fast. However, if you are dramatically overweight the 8 week low calorie program may help shift much of the visceral fat around the liver and pancreas. Michael Mosley supports a 8 week 800 calorie diet and 5:2 intermittent fasting on his website www.thebloodsugardiet.com
More recent research supports that you need more than 3 days of consecutive 'fasting' for major autophagy to occur. Alternate day fasting may have once been the best known option, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.
 

runner2009

Well-Known Member
Messages
333
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Diabetes
I've have almost completed my 3rd cycle of Longo's Fasting Mimicking Diet - finishing up the refeed portion.

Honestly, this time my results have me to say the least a bit stunned - I woke up this morning with a fasting BG of 7.1mg/dl

In the past, I had tried the DIY Newcastle approach and failed miserably.

History: I've been a insulin dependent T2 for 4-years with both T1 and T2 antibodies.

Looking back I was best controlled when I was able to exercise - weights / running hiking - and eating a strict diet of no more than 2 servings of carbs at any meal - 30g or <90g a day. Along with low dairy, no cheeses and limited meats.

Over the years, two things changed; I hurt my back which seriously limited my vigorous exercise and I started to follow Dr. Bernstein's protocol.

With Dr. B's protocol I was able to maintain my BG levels in the normal range. My diet switched to higher proteins and saturated fats - lots of cheese.

Because of my back I relied less on exercise to keep my BG in check and my insulin requirements began to increase.

I believed in Dr. B's the law of small numbers when it comes to insulin - but over time my daily insulin requirements went to 20u to 30u a day.

I gained about 15lbs - mostly around my waist and loss muscle mass from not being able to lift regularly.

Because of the increase in insulin requirements, I tried metformin to see if this would help. I was using 2,000mg of long acting metformin a day - half in the morning and the other half late at night.

The metformin seemed to have little if any impact on my BG or insulin use.

Late, last year I ran across Dr. Longo's Fasting Mimicking Diet and his diet for Longevity - basically a modified Mediterranean with only fish and limited amounts of dairy and 0.31g to 0.37g of protein per pound of body weight a day.

His FMD and mice studies reminded me of the Newcastle protocol.

Late last year I started to to change over to his overall diet and start the 5-day / 25-day fasting cycle.

This last cycle I did a 10-day fast.

My observations are purely antidotal and I used only a food scale, MyNetDiary, 6 to 8 BG readings a day, urine ketone strips, tape measure and scale.

During the fast, I had to stop using insulin.
I became hypo unaware maybe because of the ketones?
I ate no more than 800c a day, no dairy or meats and kept my protein to 9% or less - around 9g a day.
Refeeding I ate only his moderated Mediterranean diet.
After each fast my base BG would rise but my insulin requirements dropped dramatically
After the first fast, subsequent fast were easier and I believe I could do 30-days without much trouble.
Amazingly my body weight did not drop dramatically and I've lost about 10lbs total.
Most of the weight is around my stomach as indicated by the tape measure.
The cycling vs the Newcastle approach fit me better since I was able to adjust my thinking during the refeeding stages to be more mindful about eating during the fasting portion
Honestly I was not that hungry and some days I could get by on <400c

Today, I've been 10-days no insulin and metaformin. I am not sure what's going on and latter this week I will do a glucose tolerance test.

Outside of the controversy of whether my beta cells have regenerated or repaired themselves, this is what I am thinking:
1. There is no doubt I've lost weight around my vitals
2. The lower protein has had an effect on my BG without seemingly to effect my strength.
3. The lack of animal fats and proteins have enable me to eat more denser carbs without impacting my BG as before.
4. If I was going to do the Newcastle fast, I would follow FMD protocol to get through the 3-months.

Lastly, over the years after querying Dr. Ornish, Dr. Bernstein and other nutritionist, I've come to believe that the standard BMR for most of us is way to high and the >2,000c daily amount will cause the majority of us to gain weight.

After doing this fasts and not becoming emaciated I am questioning whether the VLC diets of 1,200 to 1,600c are in fact normal diets for many of us.

If you are going to try this protocol - be aware that you can become hypo unaware - I hit 43mg/dl and had no clue. I would think about curtailing all insulin lowering meds during the fasting stage. Usually I can tell when I am hypo - on this fast I could not.

What does Dr. Taylor say about this in the Newcastle studies?
 
Last edited:

northernnerd

Member
Messages
6
Type of diabetes
Prediabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
I've have almost completed my 3rd cycle of Longo's Fasting Mimicking Diet - finishing up the refeed portion.

Honestly, this time my results have me to say the least a bit stunned - I woke up this morning with a fasting BG of 7.1mg/dl

In the past, I had tried the DIY Newcastle approach and failed miserably.

History: I've been a insulin dependent T2 for 4-years with both T1 and T2 antibodies.

Looking back I was best controlled when I was able to exercise - weights / running hiking - and eating a strict diet of no more than 2 servings of carbs at any meal - 30g or <90g a day. Along with low dairy, no cheeses and limited meats.

Over the years, two things changed; I hurt my back which seriously limited my vigorous exercise and I started to follow Dr. Bernstein's protocol.

With Dr. B's protocol I was able to maintain my BG levels in the normal range. My diet switched to higher proteins and saturated fats - lots of cheese.

Because of my back I relied less on exercise to keep my BG in check and my insulin requirements began to increase.

I believed in Dr. B's the law of small numbers when it comes to insulin - but over time my daily insulin requirements went to 20u to 30u a day.

I gained about 15lbs - mostly around my waist and loss muscle mass from not being able to lift regularly.

Because of the increase in insulin requirements, I tried metformin to see if this would help. I was using 2,000mg of long acting metformin a day - half in the morning and the other half late at night.

The metformin seemed to have little if any impact on my BG or insulin use.

Late, last year I ran across Dr. Longo's Fasting Mimicking Diet and his diet for Longevity - basically a modified Mediterranean with only fish and limited amounts of dairy and 0.31g to 0.37g of protein per pound of body weight a day.

His FMD and mice studies reminded me of the Newcastle protocol.

Late last year I started to to change over to his overall diet and start the 5-day / 25-day fasting cycle.

This last cycle I did a 10-day fast.

My observations are purely antidotal and I used only a food scale, MyNetDiary, 6 to 8 BG readings a day, urine ketone strips, tape measure and scale.

During the fast, I had to stop using insulin.
I became hypo unaware maybe because of the ketones?
I ate no more than 800c a day, no dairy or meats and kept my protein to 9% or less - around 9g a day.
Refeeding I ate only his moderated Mediterranean diet.
After each fast my base BG would rise but my insulin requirements dropped dramatically
After the first fast, subsequent fast were easier and I believe I could do 30-days without much trouble.
Amazingly my body weight did not drop dramatically and I've lost about 10lbs total.
Most of the weight is around my stomach as indicated by the tape measure.
The cycling vs the Newcastle approach fit me better since I was able to adjust my thinking during the refeeding stages to be more mindful about eating during the fasting portion
Honestly I was not that hungry and some days I could get by on <400c

Today, I've been 10-days no insulin and metaformin. I am not sure what's going on and latter this week I will do a glucose tolerance test.

Outside of the controversy of whether my beta cells have regenerated or repaired themselves, this is what I am thinking:
1. There is no doubt I've lost weight around my vitals
2. The lower protein has had an effect on my BG without seemingly to effect my strength.
3. The lack of animal fats and proteins have enable me to eat more denser carbs without impacting my BG as before.
4. If I was going to do the Newcastle fast, I would follow FMD protocol to get through the 3-months.

Lastly, over the years after querying Dr. Ornish, Dr. Bernstein and other nutritionist, I've come to believe that the standard BMR for most of us is way to high and the >2,000c daily amount will cause the majority of us to gain weight.

After doing this fasts and not becoming emaciated I am questioning whether the VLC diets of 1,200 to 1,600c are in fact normal diets for many of us.

If you are going to try this protocol - be aware that you can become hypo unaware - I hit 43mg/dl and had no clue. I would think about curtailing all insulin lowering meds during the fasting stage. Usually I can tell when I am hypo - on this fast I could not.

What does Dr. Taylor say about this in the Newcastle studies?

Thanks for posting this. Did you use your own protocol based on Longo's studies, or the Fasting Mimicking Diet he developed? I'm interested in trying it but I don't fully trust that I'll get the same results by doing it myself.
 

runner2009

Well-Known Member
Messages
333
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Diabetes
@bulkbiker - Honestly, I might have miswritten here. I was in ICU for over 5-days with an infection in my intestines and diabetic ketoacidosis. When I was in a regular ward the diabetic MD told that I had antibodies for T1 and she could have said antibodies or indications of T2 also. Further, if I recall correctly, she said that in her opinion most adult diabetes is a combination of both.

Over the years I thought of following up with her statement, but I never did.
 

runner2009

Well-Known Member
Messages
333
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Diabetes
@northernnerd -

I basically followed my and others interpretation of this protocol base upon:
  1. First day - 34 percent carbohydrates, 10 percent protein and 56 percent fat
  2. Days 2 - 5 -47 percent carbohydrates, 9 percent protein and 44 percent fat
I read the book Longevity Diet and two websites that were helpful:
  1. https://draxe.com/fasting-mimicking-diet/
  2. https://www.quantifiedbob.com/2016/04/fasting-mimicking-diet/ which had this plan and recipe
    1. http://agingadvice.org/FMD-Recipes.html
    2. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QpnXazOb_9PaUsX6b9QXTBuBBHHXmMOK8MUyd73WCTk/edit#gid=0
I ate about 700c a day to give me a buffer, I did not eat any animal products or dairy, and if I always kept my protein and carbs down below the recommendations - especially protein that rarely went over 9g

I followed some advice that recommended eating two avocados as they closely mimic the basic percents of the macronutrients - 76% fat, 20% carbs, 5% protein - with two scoops of super green nutrients - no pea protein - or a bit of nutritional yeast.

I also looked at some videos on the web that showed some of the daily packets of the Prolon diet and saw they had tomato soup, walnuts, olives and kale chips - so I've added small amounts of that into my protocol - interesting on the second fast the combination of walnuts and olives actually filled me up.

Warnings:

I am very careful about my BG and I test myself between 4 to 8 times a day. I was very surprised at how low my BG became and maybe because of the ketone bodies I became very hypo-unaware. I was in the mid 40smg/dl and had no idea I was that low.

I think I would suspend my meds or reduce them dramatically depending on the situation. I've listened to a number of interviews of Dr. Longo and he stresses this and if you are diabetic you cannot buy the fasting product without a MDs OK

I would watch out driving the first couple of days as during the first fast and first couple of days, I was faint sometimes when I stood up. I added about 2-teaspoons of 40,000 Volts of trace minerals and this helped greatly, I am sure you can make your own or use something else.

I have yet to do the Glucose Tolerance test, but what it seems to me right now is that my primary insulin secretion is still impaired, but my secondary insulin release seems almost overly strong - if that can be.

As you can see I am not an expert. Let me know what happens and if you want you can DM me
 

bulkbiker

BANNED
Messages
19,575
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
@bulkbiker - Honestly, I might have miswritten here. I was in ICU for over 5-days with an infection in my intestines and diabetic ketoacidosis. When I was in a regular ward the diabetic MD told that I had antibodies for T1 and she could have said antibodies or indications of T2 also. Further, if I recall correctly, she said that in her opinion most adult diabetes is a combination of both.

Over the years I thought of following up with her statement, but I never did.

I'm no expert on Type 1 but if they thought you had Type 1 antibodies then I think you would be Type 1?
Might be worth checking especially as the treatment paths are quite different depending on which type you have.
Ketoacidosis is also a signifier of Type 1 too so far as I know.
 

runner2009

Well-Known Member
Messages
333
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Diabetes
I definitely have some functioning beta cells - as shown from my glucose tolerance test. I suppose I could get further testing. I was told later that perhaps I was T 1.5

According to Dr. Bernstein if you are treated with insulin early on this helps some of the beta cells from burning out and helps with the decline. I was glad for whatever reason to be on insulin. I've also found insulin a very useful tool with diet/exercise to keeping my BG A1C between 4.8 - 5.4

My philosophy has always been to keep my BG as normal as possible with whatever works the best - insulin, diet, exercise, or combinations.

It has only been recently that my insulin requirements have gone up. This seems to be partly due to my increasingly higher saturated fat diet along with more animal proteins and increased weight around my trunk - but I don't know.

This is a very complicated disease and it seems the diagnosis - especially with T2 - into broad of a category.

Congratulations on how well controlled you are
 

NewTD2

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,563
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
I definitely have some functioning beta cells - as shown from my glucose tolerance test. I suppose I could get further testing. I was told later that perhaps I was T 1.5

According to Dr. Bernstein if you are treated with insulin early on this helps some of the beta cells from burning out and helps with the decline. I was glad for whatever reason to be on insulin. I've also found insulin a very useful tool with diet/exercise to keeping my BG A1C between 4.8 - 5.4

My philosophy has always been to keep my BG as normal as possible with whatever works the best - insulin, diet, exercise, or combinations.

It has only been recently that my insulin requirements have gone up. This seems to be partly due to my increasingly higher saturated fat diet along with more animal proteins and increased weight around my trunk - but I don't know.

This is a very complicated disease and it seems the diagnosis - especially with T2 - into broad of a category.

Congratulations on how well controlled you are

So are you diagnosed as T1.5?