DIABETES AND DRIVING LICENCE QUESTIONS

[cugila]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

"stevenrenshaw"
the dvla revoke many licences of many diabetics who can see reasonbly well this causeing a lot of hardship to many people

Are you serious......."reasonably well"........ :roll:

Steven, you have shot yourself in the foot mate, whatever argument you might have been able to put forward has gone out the window.........

 

[smidge]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

Hi all,

Perhaps the lack of consistency the DVLA applies to medical issues breaks the Disability Discrimination Act? They do seem to single out diabetes sufferers for different and seemingly much harsher treatment than those with other conditions. They also make us declare things that non-diabetics do not have to declare. For example, because I'm diabetic and on insulin I've had to tell them I wear glasses for driving - even though I've worn glasses for many years and it has nothing to do with my diabetes, I'm just short-sighted like much of the population - non-diabetics do not have to tell the DVLA this information. I also have to reapply for my license every 3 years - other people have all sorts of serious non-diabetic conditions and don't have to do this e.g. thyroid problems. If I had my license revoked unfairly i.e. if my condition was not making me any more of a danger than other sections of the population, I would see a solicitor and try to to take a case against them for discrimination - I'm sure the Disability Discrimination Act must apply here? Obviously, if you are a danger due to your condition you shouldn't drive.

Smidge

 

[stevenrenshaw]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

smidge , i fully agree with what you say about the dvla ,they treat us very unfairly .that is why i said ,if all diabetices made a stand in this matter and complained, to there MP, that it is about time something positive. was done, concerning the situation .it can only be done in big numbers .If all people who are diabetic wrote just one letter each to their MP ,then they would have to listen to us ,
or are YOU satisfied not driveing anymore ,cos i'm not .fight them till the end if need be as they say ,it is hard getting your licence in the first place why should they be allowed to take it away unnessaraly .

 

[cugila]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

I dealt with the consequences of people who thought that they were fine to drive, some of the excuses they came up with after accidents, some serious, some minor, some fatal !

My eyesight is fine.....in good light....if I know where I am.....providing I'm close to the signs.....I never saw him.......she ran out in front of me from nowhere.......I didn't know the road and I missed the sign.....I haven't got my proper glasses.......where did he come from, It was his fault he never saw me !

All just some of the feeble excuses trotted out by those who thought they could see 'reasonably well'. Until something goes wrong, then that poor eyesight is found out, then that driver has to take the consequences of their inability to meet fairly lax eyesight standards for driving in the UK.

Having a Driving Licence is not a 'right'.....it is something you have to pass a test for nowadays which is getting more stringent to try and put a stop to the needless deaths and injuries on our roads. So any attempt to monitor and control those with conditions which could contribute to those deaths and injuries has to be a good thing. I am very glad that people who have problems with eyesight, Diabetes, and a myriad other conditions which are listed by the DVLA are restricted in what they can do on the Public roads. They apply to me as a Diabetic but I don't consider myself discriminated against......there are rules. I stick to them. If I had to stop driving then that is just my bad luck, I wouldn't want to mount a campaign to get me back on the road, I would accept it with good grace, as it is for the benefit and safety of other road users.......not just my own wants.

If you have a problem with your eyesight, which is pretty fundamental in my view......where is there any discrimination in the DVLA wanting to know you can meet certain standards which are usually set by experts in that field. The rules regarding eyesight apply to all drivers........not just Diabetic's. So, it isn't in any way discrimination towards one particular group because you have difficulty meeting the present standards. The standards are far too lax as it is.

So, I for one will not be helping you by writing to my MP, nor supporting your attempts to get support. It's bad luck your eyesight isn't up to scratch........I sympathise but disagree totally with your premise. My opinion.

 

[hanadr]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

I'm with Ken
what about the innocent road users who are the victims of other people's selfishness? Of course not having a driving license is frustrating. T1 husband now has to have visual field tests to get one[ I still have mine;apart from needing glasses for shor sight, I have no visual problems]
Is this part of the "Me Me " culture?
If ever my sight deteriorates to where I lose my license, I shall stop driving. As it is, I use public transport whenever I can.
Hana

 

[smidge]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

I think there are two issues here:

1. Are you fit to drive?
2. Are diabetics treated differently than the rest of the population without good cause?

On point 1., I have no problem with Ken and Hana's point of view. Anyone not fit to drive should not hold a license, diabetic or not. On point 2., though, I do believe diabetics are discriminated against. We are singled-out for very harsh treatment by the DVLA. There is absolutely no evidence that using insulin responsibly makes you any greater a risk than having thyroid issues, heart problems etc etc and yet I have to apply for my license every 3 years while other categories of people do not. That is not fair and is not equal treatment.

Smidge

 

[cugila]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

This started off about Vision tests and Diabetic's but now has opened up into a more general discussion about whether or not Diabetic's are treated unfairly.

I don't believe a Diabetic is in any way discriminated against unfairly in relation to other groups with certain medical conditions and driving. There are risks which may be applicable hence the different standards.

Everybody thinks they are fine......."I am well controlled"........famous last words ! You say there is no evidence of any risk if using Insulin responsibly ? If only that were true. There is well documented cases of Deaths attributable to drivers who had hypo's at the wheel. They nearly all stated and thought that they were "well controlled Diabetic's". They nearly all had been driving for years but were caught out by an unknown low blood sugar level. People died because of their actions. Responsible drivers.

So I would have to disagree strongly with your assertion. I have personally seen the results of this and the devastation to peoples lives, innocent victims, bystanders, families. I have had to knock on peoples doors and tell unsuspecting people their loved one is not coming home again. Clear up the carnage that was caused at the roadside. That's incontrovertible evidence.....documented. One death is one too many, that is why the rules are there and should not be changed.......to protect us from the risks.......known risks AND unknown risks.

The role of the Drivers Medical Group in DVLA is to promote road safety by establishing whether drivers who have medical conditions are able to satisfy the medical standards required for safe driving. To undertake this task, DVLA employs its own fully qualified medical advisers who are supported by administrative staff.

There are many conditions which are listed which have different medical standards set out by the DVLA. This is the criteria which is used to decide which, if any groups have restrictions applied.

Section 92 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 refers to prescribed, relevant and prospective disabilities.

• A prescribed disability is one that is a legal bar to the holding of the licence. Certain statutory conditions, defined in regulation, may need to be met. An example is epilepsy.

• A relevant disability is any medical condition that is likely to render the person a source of danger while driving. An example is a visual field defect.

• A prospective disability is any medical condition, which, because of its progressive or intermittent nature may develop into a prescribed or relevant disability in the course of time. An example is insulin treated diabetes. A driver with a prospective disability may normally only hold a driving licence subject to medical review in one, two or three years.

Now to me, that all sounds pretty sensible and is for the common good, Road Safety is paramount.

The views of the individual are listened to, however it is enshrined in Law and only an Act of Parliament can change that. To be perfectly honest, I think most people would look at those criteria and say that it is a sensible and fair thing. Especially those who do not suffer from those conditions.
I suffer from Diabetes which at some point may or may not need Insulin. I would be prepared to submit to the conditions without complaint, because it is all about Road Safety.....not the individual.

I probably wouldn't be too pleased about it but to me if there IS any discrimination, then it is POSITIVE discrimination for the benefit of us all. Something in my view we should all applaud.

 

[HLW]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

+++ everything Ken said.

 

[Gazhay]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

I've read most of this thread in a state of disbelief.

It seems that some people actually believe the DVLA enjoy taking licenses away for no good reason. That amazes me.

There also seems to be a large confusion between the DVLA having a duty of care in issuing licenses and criminal prosecutions resulting in license removal.

Someone who drink drives or speeds, is dealt with by the criminal courts. If they lose the license, it is specified, if and when they can re-apply. The DVLA would then apply any tests necessary and pass or fail or the driver based on that.

It is a completely different situation with Diabetic drivers. We are licensed to drive. Think about that last sentence for a minute. The DVLA, allow ALL drivers who have passed their test to drive, under license.

Being diagnosed diabetic contravenes that license, and the DVLA then revoke it, and perform medical enquiries. If we are deemed fit to drive, we are licensed again.

Pre-diagnosis and while at University I drove minibuses for sporting events. Every year I had to attend a 4 hour police lecture about safe driving and the responsibility of the (upto) 16 lives on the bus while I was driving. We were told to imagine the situation where 16 sets of parents or wives were getting knocks on the door at 3am from the police because we had taking a chance while driving, or allowed those in the back not to wear seat belts, or drink. We were even told to think of surviving an accident in which there had been fatalities.

Now, if anyone here has visual difficulties but can still read a number plate at 20 feet, are you honestly saying if you were involved in an accident where there was a fatality, and you "didn't see" the other party, you would be alright with that? Aside from that, if someone is involved in an accident with you and it becomes apparent that you are a diabetic with questionable vision, do you think their lawyer and insurance is going to ignore that? You will be doing these tests for the police, and if you fail, you will be facing severe criminal penalties.

I back the DVLA 100%. If there is even the slightest chance that someone (me included) has impaired vision then it's not just their right, it's their duty to revoke a license. I might agree that it is too easy to get a license, and far too easy to regain one lost for speeding or drink related offences, that isn't part of this argument.

It might not be fair, jobs might be lost, inconvenience might be had. That, sadly, is life, it isn't fair.

 

[donnellysdogs]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

I think that a lot of people should be more aware of just what they have to tell the DVLA.......for example...

Depression.....if GP's are giving out so many drugs for depression, why aren't all these persons who are taking medication for depression reporting and having to go through medicals etc......

I never knew that you had to declare depression, until my DVLA/Hypo incident in July 2010. In one of my letters I inadvertently wrote that I my GP was now treating me for depression or something similar to this.....before I knew it, I had ANOTHER medical form to be completed for depression, and given xx days to return it, otherwise they would revoke my licence.

Two sides:
1) It is NOT just diabetics that have to go through DVLA, what about all the epileptic persons that have so much trouble to get licences and to keep them?

2) Have a look at the DVLA website sometime and look at depression...there are 100,000's of people that should be reporting this condition....we all have medical conditions that may involve the loss of our licences and the DVLA and medical professions have to set a criteria of safety at some level, it wouldn't matter what level it was set at there would be people thinking that they are safe, when actually they may not be as safe as they really should be.....


The dvla are at the end of the day another government department, but I have always found the staff answering the calls in the medical department are excellent. I can only talk from my own experience, but I could not fault anybody talking to me at the end of the phone, and believe me, I phoned them many times!!!

 

[janabelle]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

Donnellysdogs,Ken, HLW and the rest who ain't stamping their feet and whining like a child not getting their way, are the sensible ones on this thread.
I have never driven, for 2 reasons, only having sight in one eye and being type-1; neither of which would have prevented me driving. However, I can see this argument from the perspective of one who is losing sight from a condition completely unrelated to my diabetes. The condition I have, RP, causes a very gradual deterioration, of the visual field, for example my sister's condition was quite far advanced when she was diagnosed. Each time my vision deteriorates, I notice it and then over a period of days/weeks I adjust to it. I have been a cyclist for years and it's been a huge part of my life, giving me freedom and enjoyment and I've found it hard this year as it restricts me in so many ways. I've had this condition for 10 yrs, and realised it was no longer safe for me to cycle as I was missing the lower left side of my vision, and it deteriorated quickly last year. I have a relative who still drives, and that worries me, having experience of the condition.
I'm with the DVLA, we don't all think the same, and there has to be a body to look after the general public when handling a vehicle is involved.
Life isn't fair, and the DVLA rules are obviously there for good reason.
Jus

 

[smidge]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

As I have said, those of you who are not safe should not drive. If I ever become unsafe I'll not drive. Until then, I would like to be treated with dignity and respect and the DVLA should assume I am fit to drive until there is evidence I am not - not just stigmatise me and treat me worse than a criminal drink driver just because I have diabetes! It's the unfair discrimination that annoys me so much.

Smidge

 

[donnellysdogs]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

I think the ranting about the dvla and discrimination etc on this post is not really helping anybody.

Opticians, consultants and DVLA all hae to have a set criteria to work to, otherwise everybody would be claiming discrimination in one way or another. They have not wildy pulled figures out the sky, there is medical evidence for them to give them these guidelines. The DVLA although quite slow, they do review limits in accordance with how medical treatments etc change.

They have to have some standards to work to, I have never known anybody to take the DVLA to court to appeal the decisions made about their revoking of licence etc, as a solicitor will tell you, you will lose. The DVLA will be able to prove without any problems how thorough and exact their standards are, and a judge will undoubtedly come down on the side of the judge.

The only thing that you can try with the DVLA, doctors, opticians, consultants is to be considerate and polite whilst dealing with them. Rantings are allowed on this forum, but you will not get anywhere by ranting at the group of people just mentioned.

Personally I thank all the people that gave me support on this forum when I had my DVLA/Hypo incident in July 2010. Their information, was very good. Yes, I did keep my licence. However, it has made me more aware of what people go through with medicals and licences. Believe me, we are not the only group of people having to give proof that we are safe to drive.

It is firmly my belief, that if persons are safe to drive they will fall within the limits that medical evidence has proved to be safe. If I had lost my licence I would have had to accept it, I would have done everything I could to get it back, but at the end of the day if my Consultant or anybody tells me I am not safe to drive, then I would have to adapt my life to this.

 

[smidge]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

Well, everyone's entitled to their opinion. In your situation I'd have probably stopped driving as I wouldn't feel safe - but I wouldn't have needed the DVLA to tell me that. I guess we're all different.

Smidge

 

[cugila]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

Well, everyone's entitled to their opinion. In your situation I'd have probably stopped driving as I wouldn't feel safe - but I wouldn't have needed the DVLA to tell me that. I guess we're all different.

Smidge

Unfortunately smidge........not everybody thinks like you.

Sometimes the DVLA and other organisations HAVE to get involved AND people have to be told things they might not like to hear. Some individuals cannot be trusted to be open and honest about the extent of the problem regarding their condition/s.

That is why the rules are so strict........NOT because of any discrimination.

That's life.......

 

[mrburden]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

I had my licence revoked 12 years ago, due to retinopathy and subsequent reduced field of vision. It took the DVLA a year to make the decision but I stopped driving after the eye consultant said that if the choice was his to make, he wouldnt' let me drive home from the appointment!
To anyone who feels that questioning or appealing a revokation is the best option, I say this:
You can see what you can see, but you can't see what you can't see.
If a test proves that your sight is even borderline, you owe it to yourself and everyone else to at least see sense. Your eyesight can change very quickly, in fact as quickly as your blood sugar levels. If you're borderline to start with, you could be dangerous within a matter of hours.
I know from experience that losing your ability to drive is a major inconvienience in daily life but it is workable - I can guarantee that. I lost a job because of it and also have to make many awkward visits for appointments and often wish I could just jump into the car to take my young family out. I have mobility problems on top too.
If you had an accident as a result of a bad decision just imagine how you would need to adapt your life (and those of your family) afterwards.

 

[babo456]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

Hello,

I came across this site by accident. I found it interesting what you folks were talking about. I work in an Eye Clinic, i carry out many of the DVLA tests. If i can be of any assistance please ask.

My own personal opinion is that yes there should be more research done into how your defects actually effect your driving. With added testing (Some sort of driving simulator perhaps + Visual acuity and Visual fields). This costs money... NHS poor... I know ,just a thought!

The DVLA is a pain in the backside... Agree'd!.. But they are there for a reason. If you fail your fields test then this obviously leads us to believe that you may be of risk to yourself and others. I know the test seems rather trivial. A few lights blah blah how does that tell you im not seeing so well.

The test sort of lets us see what you see. The lights that are shown are very bright, if you miss them it is with out doubt you cannot see out that part of your eyes (Not necessarily blind, but what vision is there is not of use). You are ALLOWED defects in the test. The standard is on the DVLA website. The Visual acuity part of the test (the letter chart) is testing the central part of your vision.

I look forward to hopfully helping you folks out in anyway i can.

Babo456

 

[tony13579]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

He might be eligable for access to work taxis from Job Center Plus.

My wife has MS and gets the difference between public transport and taxi costs. They can even pay me for taking my wife to work. You could arrange a private agreement with a retired person so they can earn a little pin money.

 

[bonerp]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice?

I'll add my 2 cents worth...

I have a 3yr license and its just been renewed this sept after a dreadful year of bleeds in my left eye, heavy amounts of laser previously and a vitrectomy that seems to have sorted it...

Apparantly there are 2 types of field visual test machines that can be used. My mate with T1 failed on one (that they took away his license from) and passed on the other (and got it returned to him).

When I took the test, I spotted 1 less spot than the previous test 3 years ago. But I do agree it does not NECESSARILY indicate the completeness of your vision. Everytime I do it I wonder why they haven't come up with anything better!

I don't believe its a clean cut case of eye problems = no license. DVLA (and local offices) are inconsistent. If you fail, ask why, collect your evidence and try another visual field test machine at an approved opticians, and go back to DVLA with a challenge. If your eyes are too bad, you will fail again and shouldn't get the support needed - and rightly won't get your license back...

DVLA is not god. They can and do make mistakes and sometimes poor decisions. If you have the facts to arm yourself with, and feel you have a fair case, you should receive a review of your case.

Also eyesight can and does improve, so given time a fail may become a pass in future.

 

[lostsoul]

Re: DVLA revoked driving licence - any advice? Yeah..Quit

I quit driving more than 20 yrs ago because diabetes and driving did not mix well with me. Hypo's whilst driving, lowered vision acuity skills after laser treatment. Better to be safe than sorry. Vision impairment amongst diabetics is higher than in normal people. Long driving hours. I wear glasses and have done so since the age of 30. Am 52 now. Diabetic for 45 yrs. The DVLA were right to revoke licenses for the exact reasons stated by them. Accept their decision and learn to deal with it. Self employed...hire a second helper (clean driving license) with a van.