Type 2 Anyone on this forum that has reversed/controlled their diabetes without going very low carb?

[Pipp]

@Tannith, and @MikeyU
How long since you completed your very low calorie / Newcastle diet? It is seven years since I did.
I ask because I would urge caution about carbs in the follow on to ND. I believed it was fine to eat high carb foods, as my HbA1c levels and daily blood glucose readings remained stable and below pre-diabetes levels, despite experimenting with high carb foods. What did happen was after about 2 years I had regained half the weight I had lost with Newcastle diet. Carbs for me, and I believe many others, are addictive. Once I started on the high carb foods I wanted more and it took several months to wean myself off them. There was also a gradual increase in HbA1c levels which recently have been hovering at around the 40 level. It concerns me that even with low carbing I am not shifting the excess weight, and could be close to what Prof Taylor calls the 'personal fat threshold' which could once again tip me into diabetes levels. I believe the personal fat threshold can change with such things as age, other medical conditions and such.
My main point, never consider the ND to be the end of your battle with T2. It really is just the beginning.

 

[kokhongw]

I believe balanced fats and proteins is the solution...not the problem for T2D.

WFPB supporters no longer dispute that fats, fasting and ketogenic diet flatline glucose as this Libre chart shows...they have shifted their arguments that ketosis is a state of sickness...

I had decided that I will take my chances with the improved glucose, triglycerides, HDL and LDL markers...

 

[Oldvatr]

I believe balanced fats and proteins is the solution...not the problem for T2D.

WFPB supporters no longer dispute that fats, fasting and ketogenic diet flatline glucose as this Libre chart shows...they have shifted their arguments that ketosis is a state of sickness...

I had decided that I will take my chances with the improved glucose, triglycerides, HDL and LDL markers...

The reason why WFPB are so anti keto diets is because the two diets are diametrically different, the WFPB requires ULTRA low fat intake for it to work (and NOT medium or Low Fat), but keto needs increased fat intake to prevent the body scavenging muscle tissue for fuel. So anyone trying to use an inbetween variant of either diet will fail and possibly become sicker. So the extremes of HCHF or LCLF seem to be harmful for the human condition (obesogenic?) This seems to be almost confirmed by the latest scientific thinking. Carbs + FAT = LARD However, the jury is still out on that one.

 

[MikeyU]

@Pipp, I have never done the full ND, I was never obese, just overweight, which did not prevent me from exercising. So from day one I cut the carbs to minimum, I increased protein and fats, and started exercising. Within 8 weeks I managed to bring my weight down, dramatically increase my fitness levels and bring the blood sugar down to almost normal, healthy levels.

One thing I noticed that once I achieved target weight and fitness levels, further cutting carbs became counterproductive, bs started to creep up slowly, so I added some small amounts of carbs and it seems that my bs levels have stabilised.

For me this is a way of life now, it does not mean I can go on a carbs spree now, one needs to keep the weight down by continuing on a diet and exercising regularly. Personally I think diet is just a part of the picture, increased physical activity is the other, and self-discipline of course

 

[Pipp]

@Pipp, I have never done the full ND, I was never obese, just overweight, which did not prevent me from exercising. So from day one I cut the carbs to minimum, I increased protein and fats, and started exercising. Within 8 weeks I managed to bring my weight down, dramatically increase my fitness levels and bring the blood sugar down to almost normal, healthy levels.

One thing I noticed that once I achieved target weight and fitness levels, further cutting carbs became counterproductive, bs started to creep up slowly, so I added some small amounts of carbs and it seems that my bs levels have stabilised.

For me this is a way of life now, it does not mean I can go on a carbs spree now, one needs to keep the weight down by continuing on a diet and exercising regularly. Personally I think diet is just a part of the picture, increased physical activity is the other, and self-discipline of course

Thanks for clarifying that @MikeyU . I do get a bit twitchy if I think folks are seeing ND as a magic cure. It is great for some, especially if they have the visceral fat to lose, but some fail to understand that there is a lifetime follow on, to keep the fat off. I chose ND as an alternative to bariatric surgery, that was all the NHS had left to offer me, having failed with their low fat high carb method.
Apologies for misunderstanding you. I am pleased you have found a diet and exercise regime to suit you. Well done in managing good result in 8 weeks.

 

[Mbaker]

That is because most people of the people that hang out here like the low carb high fat diet and espouse it.
I found support on other forums elsewhere.

I had prediabetes and reversed it by following Dr McDougalls Starch solution.
I also bought and read Dr Neal Barnards book "Dr Neal Barnards Program for reversing diabetes: The scientifically Proven System for reversing Diabetes without Drugs"
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Neal-Barnards-Program-Reversing-Diabetes/dp/1594868107
You can pick up these books second hand from Amazon for as little as 1p, which is what i did!

My hba1c was 42- the next time they let me test it , 3 mths later, it was 35.
My macros consisted of 80% carbs, 10% fat and 10% protein.
I did high carb, Low fat, and the key is keeping your fat intake right down by NO added fats or oils to your food.
Once you are healthy, some added avocado , olives, nuts etc to your food is fine, but while you are trying to lose weight, cut them out.

During the time it dropped, my staple starches were White and sweet potatoes (about 5 potatoes and 1 large sweet potato a day) and Rice, sometimes white, mostly brown and I also did occasionally have some white naan bred with my soup for lunch.
For breakfast i had for the first 6 weeks a raison cinnamon bagel, but then decided I should eat something less processed, so went for porridge made with water, served with oatmilk and some coconut sugar or maple syrup.

On the Dr McDougall Friends facebook group, there are MANY people who were very sick diabetics who are fine now after going to a NO ADDED FATS OR OILS plant based, starch centred diet!
The added bonus is their risk of heart disease and other diseases also drops, as they see their cholesterol and other bloods fall into healthy levels.

Interesting. Added carbs of 80% on my numbers would have been suicidal, probably would have led to a major negative health event (i'm not joking) with a 134 HbA1c I needed the sugar out; with a HbA1c of 42 I can understand how maybe eating "clean" carbs could work. I am glad this worked for you.

My advice to anyone with high numbers is to ask yourself, does it seem safer to use food which raises insulin and glucose scientifically (starchy carbs) or food again proven with science and live examples to have a lesser effect i.e. low carbs, protein and fat (healthy fat not vegetable oils), the comparison is like trying to put out a fire with either lighter fuel or water - I think this is applicable to circa 85% of Type 2's - not based on scientific numbers, just seeing studies on low carb, listening to responses of LCHF / Keto / IF stories for several years and only around literally 3 stories where someone has said it is has not worked for them; and my experience of doing low GI, stalling at a HbA1c 41/42 and lowering this on low carb.

To be even handed I have watched days of Vegan / WFPB videos, Simply Raw Reversing Diabetes persuaded me that other protocols can reverse diabetes, as has the low calorie Newcastle Diet, The Biggest Loser competition and watching a retreat program with Nick Knowles where a Type 2 diabetic obtained normal numbers in a month on a Vegan diet. Interestingly within the last 2 weeks using an A1cNow test my number was 29, my non-diabetic wife 32, her Mum and Dad respectively 34 and 39.
@Rachox tagged you in as you asked about this test (unfortunately my surgery full bloods did not include HbA1c, so I have to wait until the end of June for direct comparison. I do not believe the 29 until compared).

 

[ickihun]

The reason why WFPB are so anti keto diets is because the two diets are diametrically different, the WFPB requires ULTRA low fat intake for it to work (and NOT medium or Low Fat), but keto needs increased fat intake to prevent the body scavenging muscle tissue for fuel. So anyone trying to use an inbetween variant of either diet will fail and possibly become sicker. So the extremes of HCHF or LCLF seem to be harmful for the human condition (obesogenic?) This seems to be almost confirmed by the latest scientific thinking. Carbs + FAT = LARD However, the jury is still out on that one.

I just don't lose weight on lchf diet. No matter the fat %.
Once I cut cheese, cream, nuts and pork scratchings I lost muscle weight but at least lost something.
LcHf on more fat added weight on me.
Not sure if thyroid didn't like it or body thought I was in starvation mode but lchf was great for bgs but no weight loss for me.

 

[ickihun]

I know 600cals works but I just cannot do such a severe diet now without bariatric team.
I'm no longer that 14/15yr old.

 

[saint82scarlet]

My x-pert course diabetes nurse said that we should have 100 grams of carbs per day as a min, because otherwise our brain won't function correctly. Up to 230grams for woman and up to 300 grams for men.
So please don't go too low.

From my understanding there's two types of diabetes for type 2. Those who don't produce enough insulin therefore loose weight. And those who produce loads, but the body won't accept the insulin. (Insulin resistant) those are the ones who actually gain weight. From my understand the ones who are insulin resistant may be able to loose enough weight to temporarily reverse the diabetes. As it will put less stress on the pancreas. But remember, when that organ gets worn down again through old age. The diabetes will come back.
So it's only a temp reversal. But that might be 30 years with out. So obviously a good thing.

Also, I was recommended the cauliflower rice. It's low carbs, but replaces the rice in meals. Not tried it yet, but might be an option for you.

 

[bulkbiker]

My x-pert course diabetes nurse said that we should have 100 grams of carbs per day as a min, because otherwise our brain won't function correctly. Up to 230grams for woman and up to 300 grams for men.
So please don't go too low.

Hi
I'm afraid your Xpert nurse obviously isn't an "Expert" where the functioning of the brain is concerned..
The body is quite capable of making glucose from protein if it is required through a process called gluconeogenesis.
The requirement for dietary carbohydrate is zero ... quite a few people (myself included) try to stay in ketosis which requires minimal carb consumption and so far as I am aware my brain is fine (others on the forum may disagree...).

 

[Brunneria]

My x-pert course diabetes nurse said that we should have 100 grams of carbs per day as a min, because otherwise our brain won't function correctly. Up to 230grams for woman and up to 300 grams for men.

I am very sorry that you were given incorrect information on your course.

Your x-pert course diabetes nurse needs to get the correct info and not keep perpetrating bad myths that should have died decades ago. It is a real pity that a professional is handing out info like this and passing on the information to diabetics, because it could harm their health for years.

The simple fact is that the brain needs glucose (approx 120g a day) to function.
But the human body does not need to eat that glucose.
We can produce glucose from fats and protein (lipogenesis and gluconeogenesis) and our brains function perfectly well on it, indefinitely.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gluconeogenesis
https://www.news-medical.net/life-sciences/What-is-Lipogenesis.aspx
In fact, lots of people report better brain function and better clarity of thought on very low carb diets.

These are well established facts that can easily be verified by internet searches.
https://www.healthcentral.com/article/the-carbohydrate-brain-fuel-myth

Very sad that your x-pert course diabetes nurse has not updated her training curriculum in line with the x-pert guidance.
X-pert has been promoting LCHF as a valid option for healthy eating and blood glucose management for 2-3 years now.

 

[rom35]

My x-pert course diabetes nurse said that we should have 100 grams of carbs per day as a min, because otherwise our brain won't function correctly. Up to 230grams for woman and up to 300 grams for men.
So please don't go too low.

It is not the truth. Eating carbs is not needed. There is also approved VeryLCHF diet for children with epilepsy. Official reduction diet for diabetes 2 is 175g of carbs a day, so half of your 300g of minimum for men.

 

[Brunneria]

My hba1c was 42- the next time they let me test it , 3 mths later, it was 35.
My macros consisted of 80% carbs, 10% fat and 10% protein.
I did high carb, Low fat, and the key is keeping your fat intake right down by NO added fats or oils to your food.
Once you are healthy, some added avocado , olives, nuts etc to your food is fine, but while you are trying to lose weight, cut them out.

Hi,

If you had an HbA1c of 42 (bottom edge of pre-diabetes, here in the UK), I can understand why you might have decided to try a plant based whole foods way of eating with such high carbs. I am glad it worked for you - just as I am glad when anyone finds a way of eating that works for them.

However, there is a huge difference between barely-there pre-diabetes, and full on T2 where a single tablespoon of brown rice will raise the blood glucose by several mmol/l.

 

[KimC]

Hi

You’re like me and Yes it’s perfectly possible. I completely lost the plot around a year ago stopped eating healthily and generally pretending that if I ignored my diabetes it would go away. Needless to say it didn’t and my HbA1c doubled!

Around 4 weeks ago I started monitoring my blood glucose and following a modified form of Slimming World. I eat lean meat or fish, 1/3 plate full of vegetables with every meal, and a small helping of brown rice, pasta or a couple of baby new potatoes. I also eat fruit, although I avoid things like fruit flavoured yogurts as they do have a lot of sugar. The daily carb total usually comes out at somewhere around 100g.

I’m currently 9lb down, and more importantly my bg has not gone above 6.0, although it’s usually lower, since things settled down. Not bad when you consider the first readings were in the region of 14.

Good Luck you know you can beat this.

 

[There is no Spoon]

Slimming World. I eat lean meat or fish, 1/3 plate full of vegetables with every meal, and a small helping of brown rice, pasta or a couple of baby new potatoes.

Hi KimC,
You might find you get even better results by skipping the carbs from these meals.

Not trying to tell you how to live your life,
For most of us we have found that skipping the carbs from the plate you describe lowered blood glucose levels and shockingly made us feel less hungry. Feeling fuller for longer with out the carbs, which means eating less. I know it seems crazy how can you eat less and feel full.

I also eat fruit,

Ok shock number 2.
Your body dose not handle fruit the way it handles everything else and puts a greater strain on your liver than you think.

I don't have the link to hand but I'm sure @bulkbiker can supply it. (Jason Fung on fruit)

Your doing relay well @KimC these couple of little changes added to all the great work you have already done might have amazing results for you.

 

[bulkbiker]

Hi KimC,
You might find you get even better results by skipping the carbs from these meals.

Not trying to tell you how to live your life,
For most of us we have found that skipping the carbs from the plate you describe lowered blood glucose levels and shockingly made us feel less hungry. Feeling fuller for longer with out the carbs, which means eating less. I know it seems crazy how can you eat less and feel full.


Ok shock number 2.
Your body dose not handle fruit the way it handles everything else and puts a greater strain on your liver than you think.

I don't have the link to hand but I'm sure @bulkbiker can supply it. (Jason Fung on fruit)

Your doing relay well @KimC these couple of little changes added to all the great work you have already done might have amazing results for you.

Not sure if this is exactly what you meant but...
https://idmprogram.com/replace-dont-add-fruit/

 

[There is no Spoon]

Not sure if this is exactly what you meant but...

No but intresting artical,
The second video I watched by Dr Fung spoke about the body splinting fruit into fructose and sucrose and how much work the liver had to do to process this but can't seem to find it I thought you might remember this one,of the top of your head.I found it to be a real eye opener.

I fond it, and I was wrong it was the first video I watched. about 12 mins in @KimC

 

[Len_gold]

I lost 43kg within 9 months just by cutting down on everything and doing lots of exercise. I am in remission from (have reversed) my diabetes. I am not on any diabetes medication now.

 

[Tannith]

@Tannith, and @MikeyU
How long since you completed your very low calorie / Newcastle diet? It is seven years since I did.
I ask because I would urge caution about carbs in the follow on to ND. I believed it was fine to eat high carb foods, as my HbA1c levels and daily blood glucose readings remained stable and below pre-diabetes levels, despite experimenting with high carb foods. What did happen was after about 2 years I had regained half the weight I had lost with Newcastle diet. Carbs for me, and I believe many others, are addictive. Once I started on the high carb foods I wanted more and it took several months to wean myself off them. There was also a gradual increase in HbA1c levels which recently have been hovering at around the 40 level. It concerns me that even with low carbing I am not shifting the excess weight, and could be close to what Prof Taylor calls the 'personal fat threshold' which could once again tip me into diabetes levels. I believe the personal fat threshold can change with such things as age, other medical conditions and such.
My main point, never consider the ND to be the end of your battle with T2. It really is just the beginning.

I didn't do the shakes version of Newcastle I did a 900 -1000 version with real food, for about 4 months. I found it hard but looking back it was dead easy compared to a lifetime of watching carbs. I was very hungry at times. Now I have almost no difficulty doing a maintenance diet and could barely describe to you what it is. I never eat breakfast - apart from 2 cups of tea. Have a medium lunch. Today it was a plain unembelished burger with roast swede and peas.No bun.Snack a banana. And a light supper yesterday - it was fruit (an orange and a banana) and a large handful of nuts. I weigh myself most mornings and have not put on any weight at all (or maybe one lb) since I finished the Newcastle in early Jan -3 and a half months ago. Obviously its very early days but so far the maintenance diet has been a doddle.

 

[HeathKick2017]

I have achieved a good result, and reduced my meds significantly (75%) but I am just a control freak. I have not reversed ny condition and am still a PWD. But I am a happy PWD.

I started with 100 g / day, then reduced my meds, then lowered my carb intake etc. I did eventually get into ketosis but after I lost some weight I needed to stabilise things since my meds were causing mild hypo's. I relaxed on the carb counting over Xmas 2 years ago, and then carried on as just an LC diet. I fine tuned it so that by having 2 slices of toast in the morning, I avoided keto, and dropping to 1 a day let me burn fat. I used this for a year to alternate between the states to control both my bgl and my weight at the same time, and I found stability. I have since further reduced my meds again, and am still stable, but now I find I can tolerate higher carbs without too much drama.

The diet I use now is an LC variant of the Mediterranean Diet, and it suits me quite nicely. My family also share this diet, and my wife has lost 3 stones in the last 7 months without actually being carb restricted (she likes donuts and chocolate and....)

Thank you for sharing. Will give this a try