DESMOND COURSE 'T2D CAN'T EVER BE REVERSED'

[dbr10]

I have been low carbing for about 40 years now - it is the only way to keep my weight stable and energy levels up - but so many times I have had doctors ranting and raving at me about it being unhealthy not to eat carbs - they would print out a diet sheet and tell me I had to follow it to the letter - and I would do and go back next week half a stone heavier, every week - until they reduced the calories and gave me a new sheet, I would put on a bit less weight so they thought that was the problem so they reduced the calories again - twice I got down to 800 calories and after two weeks I collapsed - all those healthy carbs simply did not sustain me.

They are more interested in dogma than taking off the blinkers and looking at what might actually be in the best interest of the patient. All the Health Care 'professionals' I've dealt with, apart from one doctor at the local surgery, have caused me more upset, frustration and distress than the condition itself.

 

[Crocodile]

Been hammered to death here. For the time being, it is permanent, controlled, reversed as far as numbers go, but over the BS threshold again, you're back to the start. Simple reality

Succinct and accurate Mike.

I wasn't expecting to get much out of my DESMOND course but i actually learned quite a bit and enjoyed it. But one thing that was said was that T2D can't EVER be reversed. They went further than that by saying the media had mistaken remission for reversal. I gave an example of my sister who following a gastric bypass operation REVERSED her T2D. She can basically eat what she wants. Non diabetic results. So it's made me wonder of the people on here that have 'reversed' their T2D are they in remission or actually completely reversed? I wasn't going to argue in the DESMOND course! There were a few things I didn't agree with. Another one being the discussion on fats and which are good and bad for you. They certainly don't advocate LCHF!!! The 3 ladies running the course were non diabetic. The book they were using was years old (they called it their bible and said it was only based on facts).

This issue has been raised a few times. I don't agree with the term "reversed" either as it is open to misinterpretation as you have discovered yourself. Reading through the thread we are not alone either. Unfortunately, the descriptors are not regulated so people including medical professionals may use what ever terms suits their purpose. People like Dr Taylor and the like have products to sell so naturally they are marketed in the most receptive possible way knowing full well that no punitive action may result. Just because some medical professionals use the "reversed" term it doesn't make it so in reference to the actual disease itself. While they may have bountiful knowledge on medical facts it is also the case that their qualifications on the etymology of the English language is no better or worse than anyone else's. That is not saying that their products are unsound, they often are showing good results. In fact, the entire education on the topic of diabetes management is a failure and just as unfortunate as this is, regulation of terms won't fix this glaring problem but at least it may be a start.

 

[Debandez]

I have been low carbing for about 40 years now - it is the only way to keep my weight stable and energy levels up - but so many times I have had doctors ranting and raving at me about it being unhealthy not to eat carbs - they would print out a diet sheet and tell me I had to follow it to the letter - and I would do and go back next week half a stone heavier, every week - until they reduced the calories and gave me a new sheet, I would put on a bit less weight so they thought that was the problem so they reduced the calories again - twice I got down to 800 calories and after two weeks I collapsed - all those healthy carbs simply did not sustain me.

Let's hope they start listening soon! Do you take and vitamin suppliments?

 

[Debandez]

They are more interested in dogma than taking off the blinkers and looking at what might actually be in the best interest of the patient. All the Health Care 'professionals' I've dealt with, apart from one doctor at the local surgery, have caused me more upset, frustration and distress than the condition itself.

It is quite incredible isn't it!!!

 

[Debandez]

I'm not disagreeing with that, anyone who has a high risk of diabetes would do well to monitor their carb intake and reduce. My point was really where it was suggested that a low carb diet should be prescribed to everyone not just diabetics. Which personally I think is a non starter and unnecessary for most non.diabetic people. I think it's very easy to think that of something works for you it will work for everyone but it simply doesn't and diet is a very personal thing and involves so many different factors, it's impossible to be that prescriptive. So the best thing is to advise people generally on a healthier way of eating. I would also guess that most people referred to dieticians are, if not diabetic, very overweight likely due to poor dietary choices. And therefore surely it's better to advise a healthy diet as in complex carbs fruit veg etc than it is to advocate an extreme way of eating such as very low carb (Which the failure rate would be massive), because that would be an improvement on their previous lifestyle. There are figures around about non compliance with advice, the numbers are large. It's not always about the advice that's given but more about personal responsibility and ability and inclination to act on the advice that's given. It's very easy to blame the NHS for people getting fatter but even when given the advice most people don't take it on board

I myself have dieted in the past and the weight went back on. It was only on my diagnosis did I take dieting and completely changing the way I eat seriously. I feel most people take their health and weight too lightly!

 

[Lally123]

I myself have dieted in the past and the weight went back on. It was only on my diagnosis did I take dieting and completely changing the way I eat seriously. I feel most people take their health and weight too lightly!

I think that's it in a nutshell @Debandez. The vast majority of people can eat rubbish and feel well at the same time probably for many years. It's not usually until the consequences in the form of high blood pressure, diabetes, heart attack etc strike that people decide to change. My dad was the same, a heart attack was the thing which stopped him smoking. And he never smoked again. Maybe if kicks up the bum were on prescription it would improve our health lol. But I think we are all the same really, it usually takes something big to make us reassess.

 

[Debandez]

I think that's it in a nutshell @Debandez. The vast majority of people can eat rubbish and feel well at the same time probably for many years. It's not usually until the consequences in the form of high blood pressure, diabetes, heart attack etc strike that people decide to change. My dad was the same, a heart attack was the thing which stopped him smoking. And he never smoked again. Maybe if kicks up the bum were on prescription it would improve our health lol. But I think we are all the same really, it usually takes something big to make us reassess.

I suppose it's why we say people are 'only human'.

 

[eggs11]

I've made an effort to be healthy for years - but all my efforts didn't work - in fact they seemed to make things worse. I developed gestational diabetes with my first pregnancy in my late twenties - I was eating 'healthily' ie. low fat, low calorie and was a healthy weight at the time - looking back it was a strong indication that I was heavily insulin resistant, even then.

My recent diagnosis was a wake up call indeed - but a different kind of wake up call - I realised that all my many many previous efforts to follow healthy guidelines were a waste of time and I'd have to try something completely different this time. So I did reassess - but not in that way of thinking 'better cut out all that rubbish I'm eating' - but - better eat full fat for the first time in my adult life - and stop eating lots of fruit, brown rice, wholemeal pasta and wholemeal bread. It pains me to think of all the denial, hunger and ultimately bad health that my 'healthy eating' efforts over the years cost me.

 

[Debandez]

I've made an effort to be healthy for years - but all my efforts didn't work - in fact they seemed to make things worse. I developed gestational diabetes with my first pregnancy in my late twenties - I was eating 'healthily' ie. low fat, low calorie and was a healthy weight at the time - looking back it was a strong indication that I was heavily insulin resistant, even then.

My recent diagnosis was a wake up call indeed - but a different kind of wake up call - I realised that all my many many previous efforts to follow healthy guidelines were a waste of time and I'd have to try something completely different this time. So I did reassess - but not in that way of thinking 'better cut out all that rubbish I'm eating' - but - better eat full fat for the first time in my adult life - and stop eating lots of fruit, brown rice, wholemeal pasta and wholemeal bread. It pains me to think of all the denial, hunger and ultimately bad health that my 'healthy eating' efforts over the years cost me.

At least you have changed direction now and as a result will be much healthier. It's a massive step in the right direction. But infuriating at the same time as you were following nhs guidelines! As so many are still doing sadly :-(

 

[eggs11]

At least you have changed direction now and as a result will be much healthier. It's a massive step in the right direction. But infuriating at the same time as you were following nhs guidelines! As so many are still doing sadly :-(

True @Debandez - and sorry didn't mean to derail your thread with a rant - I guess I'm just frustrated on behalf of all patients who have tried their best, but to have ultimately have failed on low fact/high carb guidelines that are in fact not going to help. The whole issue is infinitely more complex than my own experiences but there we go.... and breathe!

 

[Oldvatr]

Dear Kyambala, the youngest book of the Bible is 2 peter and the oldest is not the “book” but some narrations, fe. The song of Deborah - Jdg 5.

Fundamentalist reading of the Bible is the same error as fundamentalist reading of NHS rules - use your own intellect, get all the information from all sources and make decision

A lot of the Dead Sea Scroll materials, and several literary contenders for the bible were excluded because the powers that be wanted to convey a different message, and some texts were controversial. So the Bible may not be The Whole Truth or either The Only Truth. It reflects what the clergy of the time was thinking, so is in reality Man's opinion of Gods Word, and heavily edited. In comparison, we already know that the NICE Guidelines get edited every year by a comittee who get paid to decide what goes in and what gets excluded. There is a danger that one or both of these documents is fiction as a result of meddling.

 

[Oldvatr]

True @Debandez - and sorry didn't mean to derail your thread with a rant - I guess I'm just frustrated on behalf of all patients who have tried their best, but to have ultimately have failed on low fact/high carb guidelines that are in fact not going to help. The whole issue is infinitely more complex than my own experiences but there we go.... and breathe!

Keep breathing......

 

[NicoleC1971]

Hi Lally,
There is a nice heart warming documentary on Netflix just now "The Magic Pill" which tackles this idea of what we consider to be " a healthy balanced diet" you will be amazed by the positive & wide ranging health impact it has on the participants.


There is a section with a Dr put on trial for ethics, for a year after tweeting someone should go LCHF. He had to legally prove that the recommended "healthy balanced diet" has been medically proven to be bad advice.
He was acquitted.

I believe the full program is linked in on this thread if you're interested and don't have Netflix.
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/the-magic-pill.144252/page-2#post-1769843

...bag...

The Magic Pill is great and so is That Sugar Film! I totally agree that many people would upgrade their diets if they went from eating crisps, fast food and sugary pop to the Eatwell Plate.. This film takes a healthy guy who eats low carb and gets him to go high carb by eating the standard 'healthy diet' (high carb, low fat and no sweets) to show that this was not healthy for him. its very entertaining too!
Re Slimming World, I went and whilst people do lose weight on their low fat diet and eat lots of fruit and veggies, they do put it back on in most cases. My class was full of very hungry people who were coming back for their 2nd and 3rd rodeos as they fell on and off the bulls**t diet.

 

[eggs11]

True @Debandez - and sorry didn't mean to derail your thread with a rant - I guess I'm just frustrated on behalf of all patients who have tried their best, but to have ultimately have failed on low fact/high carb guidelines that are in fact not going to help. The whole issue is infinitely more complex than my own experiences but there we go.... and breathe!

Wow bit of of a Freudian slip there - I meant low fat/high carb - not low fact - or did I?!

 

[Debandez]

True @Debandez - and sorry didn't mean to derail your thread with a rant - I guess I'm just frustrated on behalf of all patients who have tried their best, but to have ultimately have failed on low fact/high carb guidelines that are in fact not going to help. The whole issue is infinitely more complex than my own experiences but there we go.... and breathe!

You don't have to apologise! I love the fact that people can air and share all their views in this forum. Its all good.

 

[dbr10]

Wow bit of of a Freudian slip there - I meant low fat/high carb - not low fact - or did I?!

The World is on a fact free diet now

 

[JenniB]

The bible is 2000 years old and hardly based on fact. Nuff said.

Absolutely agree. Tried to tick for 'like' but site won't let me - but I do like this and agree

 

[ickihun]

Thanks rachox. Im just wondering if there is a thread showing tbose who had actually reversed it like my sister

No thread I know of promoting bariatric surgery remissions..... Yet!
If there isn't one by the time I achieve that goal. I'll start one.
Why is your sister not on this forum? She's in remission and totally reversed her diabetes.... for now so doesn't need us, I'd of thought.

Would anyone come back to heavy reminders once 'cured'?

I don't believe my type2 is curable but definitely managed into remission. One day.

 

[Debandez]

No thread I know of promoting bariatric surgery remissions..... Yet!
If there isn't one by the time I achieve that goal. I'll start one.
Why is your sister not on this forum? She's in remission and totally reversed her diabetes.... for now so doesn't need us, I'd of thought.

Would anyone come back to heavy reminders once 'cured'?

I don't believe my type2 is curable but definitely managed into remission. One day.

My sister might one day join us but for the ti.e being she is happy not to. She never looked back after her op. Yes I agree with you that remission is the ultimate goal. The beast can be tamed which is the main thing i feel.

 

[Kyambala]

I refuse to have an argument about the veracity of the bible or about religion in general.
Enjoy the rest of your evening.

Thanks Guzzler - I was merely correcting your misinformation which is quite common amongst people who have never read the Bible - I can't understand what they are afraid of - reading the truth never hurt anybody.

Thank you also for your best wishes.