Carbs Carbs Carbs and the press

[Celeriac]

I don't use weedkillers at all, we use a weed wand and hand weed if really dry. Luckily the garden isn't huge but we keep ourselves supplied with herbs, figs, grapes and don't suffering losses or masses of weeds.

 

[donnellysdogs]

Yep, I won't use chemical weedkillers at all either. I got a natural pond with frogs for my slugs n snails. Natural woodchips too as they don't like those either and copper wire around strawberry, courgette and lettuce beds with broken up egg shells added all year round.
Oh and picking off any slugs or snails that do attempt anything.
The only thing I can't find a cure for is the cabbage caterpillar. They just appear and detroy over night!!

Back to carbs, carbs, carbs??

 

[Okjilly67]

I totally agree. I know so many people who work on the principle that all fat is bad, and all carbohydrates good. I've a friend who eats rice cakes like they're going out of fashion, and has meringue, and fruit and cream every day for dessert. I've lost a stone since cutting down on carbs

Me too !! It's the only "diet" that I ever stuck at..... because it is so rewarding to have all my blood test results come back with reduced numbers.

 

[IanD]

Both statements come from the document.
Angels on pinheads?
To go back to the original propostition
"Sweden is the only country where the government health organisation advocates LCHF."
People now have all the original documents (well all the officially translated ones) to decide if Sweden has really done this.

Low-carbohydrate diet in type 2 diabetes: stable improvement of bodyweight and glycemic control during 44 months follow-up

• Jörgen V Nielsen and Eva A Joensson

Nutrition & Metabolism 2008

This Swedish article (in English) was cited by Diabetes UK in their "Position Statement of Low Carb diets" 2011. AFAICS it is no longer referenced. It certainly wasn't quoted to support LCHF, but if I remember rightly, to say that the weight loss wasn't maintained.

To quote from the discussion -

There is now little evidence for the claim that a fat-reduced diet for weight reduction has any particular value beyond caloric counting [10]. On the other hand, six randomised studies have shown that carbohydrate restriction with ad-libitum energy intake confers a significant benefit with regard to weight loss in obese persons [11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16]. The current study is consistent with these reports and suggests that high-starch, high-carbohydrate diets excessively stimulate appetite and disturb energy balance in patients with the metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes [3]. A reduction of carbohydrates normalises the balance, reduces insulin concentrations and favours utilization of stored fat as fuel as well as significantly reducing insulin resistance [3]. Considering the solid evidence for the negative effect of hyperglycemia on diabetes complications as well as cardiovascular disease the present high-carbohydrate dietary advice resulting in unnecessary hyperglycemia and insulin resistance seems difficult to support [17, 18, 19] and for diabetes patients, current dietary recommendations seem to be a major part of their problem rather than being part of the solution. Carbohydrate restriction, however, reverses or neutralises all aspects of the metabolic syndrome [20, 21].

Summary: A reduced carbohydrate diet is effective in motivated patients and can be recommended for overweight patients with type 2 diabetes. There has been no sign of a negative cardiovascular effect.

 

[IanD]

Now 10 years on Low Carb, Healthy Fat, with no complications.

 

[Rachox]

Low-carbohydrate diet in type 2 diabetes: stable improvement of bodyweight and glycemic control during 44 months follow-up

• Jörgen V Nielsen and Eva A Joensson

Nutrition & Metabolism 2008

This Swedish article (in English) was cited by Diabetes UK in their "Position Statement of Low Carb diets" 2011. AFAICS it is no longer referenced. It certainly wasn't quoted to support LCHF, but if I remember rightly, to say that the weight loss wasn't maintained.

To quote from the discussion -

I think this is Diabetes.uk’s latest statement on low carb:
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/profess...style/low-carb-diets-for-people-with-diabetes

 

[carol43]

fruits, wholegrains, pulses

They are still not getting it right.

 

[NicoleC1971]

I think it will change once high quality* research about LCHF is published, accepted and promoted. I think there is some promising research currently underway?

*Usually the writers of guidelines will only accept large scale randomised controlled trials, not small studies or case reports, and the studies should be published in "high impact" journals, rather than lesser-known, less reliable publications.

Normally I only accept this level of evidence too. But in this case I accept the anecdotal evidence of the hundreds of people I've seen post in this forum, plus my own anecdotal experience of what my BG meter and my body are telling me. In short, we know it works, but to get the approach into formal guidelines, it has to be proven in a certain way. This system prevents ineffective and potentially harmful treatments being approved. The downside is that when there is a potentially helpful treatment, it takes a long time to get it approved.

So I give it 5-10 years before we will be able to tell our GPs and nurses to check their guidelines. By then, hundreds of thousands of people will have suffered poorer health than necessary, and will have cost our countries millions.

It won't happen overnight, but it will happen.

I understand that NICE has never actually reviewed low carb dies but when they do they will find that it stacks up well compared to the standard diet and the low fat diet; apparently the Predimed study re the Med diet (whatever that really is) has had to be withdrawn too. There is debate about the merits of RCTs in the area of nutrition given the difficulties of long term studies possible under tightly controlled conditions. If we could find a technical solution to adding in all of our 'N of 1' anecdotes that might be useful.
There is a strong campaign by Nina Tceishow (can't spell or pronounce name - sorry) to get the US dietary guidelines due out in 2020 changed and there have been movements there to be more relaxed about the quantity of fat in the diet though the jury still seems to be out on saturated fat.

 

[Rachox]

fruits, wholegrains, pulses

They are still not getting it right.

No, I know!

 

[zand]

fruits, wholegrains, pulses

They are still not getting it right.

They don't want to get it right, if they did, they would.

 

[dbr10]

They don't want to get it right, if they did, they would.

It has to be deliberate; not investigating because it will give the answer they don't want.

 

[bulkbiker]

It has to be deliberate; not investigating because it will give the answer they don't want.

They are just giving time for Tesco to develop their "Low Carb Processed ****" range in time for Christmas...

 

[IanD]

I think this is Diabetes.uk’s latest statement on low carb:
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/profess...style/low-carb-diets-for-people-with-diabetes

That's the simplified version.

This is a link to the PDF version giving the references. I've followed up a number of these. There is an instructive rabbit trail ....

Ref 8 "A critical review of low-carbohydrate diets in people with Type 2 diabetes." is quoted in the PDF to prove -

Studies on very low-carb ketogenic diets have suggested that these may not be sustainable over a medium to longer term as carbohydrate intake in the different diets within studies often converged toward a more moderate level [8].

The actual report concludes -

Total energy intake remains the dietary predictor of body weight. A LCarbD appears no different from a high-carbohydrate diet in terms of metabolic markers and glycaemic control. Very LCDs may not be sustainable over a medium to longer term as carbohydrate intake in diets within studies often converged toward a more moderate level. The variable quality of studies included in earlier meta-analyses likely explains the previous inconsistent findings between meta-analyses.

© 2015 The Authors. Diabetic Medicine © 2015 Diabetes UK.

BUT - note that it is a DUK report.

But a citation in that Ref 8 report gives a rather different conclusion - "Effect of low-calorie versus low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet in type 2 diabetes."

.....
The initial dose of some antidiabetic medications was decreased to half and some were discontinued at the beginning of the dietary program in the LCarbKetoD group. Dietary counseling and further medication adjustment were done on a biweekly basis.
RESULTS:
The LCalorieD and LCarbKetoD had beneficial effects on all the parameters examined. Interestingly, these changes were more significant in subjects who were on the LCKD as compared with those on the LCD. Changes in the level of creatinine were not statistically significant.
CONCLUSION:
This study shows the beneficial effects of a ketogenic diet over the conventional LCD in obese diabetic subjects. The ketogenic diet appears to improve glycemic control. Therefore, diabetic patients on a ketogenic diet should be under strict medical supervision because the LCKD can significantly lower blood glucose levels.

Not only did the LCKD keto diet improve glycemic control, it allowed the reduction in medication. I suggest that the "strict medical supervision" is because the diet is so effective that medication can be reduced.
BUT
where do we find our "strict medical supervision" ?!? We need to self test & of course self testing is discouraged by our doctors.

 

[IanD]

Looking at my footnote -
Type 2 in 2000, 3x500 metformin, reduced carb diet
HBA Jan 08 - 6.7, July 09 - 6.2, January 10 - 5.9, October 12 - 6.3
No diabetic complications.

My HbA1c has drifted up over the 10 years & steadied at 6.7.
My average readings - fasting/before/after meals were 7.3 at the end of April. I then reduced my carbs towards keto & the average is now 6.9.

My interest in keto is for my 5 y-o granddaughter Ava who is suffering from epilepsy. Her parents think she is also suffering from side effects of powerful medication. The hospital at last is advising a keto diet for her.

It seems that the dietitians are seeking to maintain strict control & advise against trying it without their strict supervision. Parents have been aware of the diet for months - not just from me - but a non-keto diet is the typical high carb/sugar, low fat diet that is bad for everyone.

I think the sustained use of a near keto diet by members of this forum offers a massive database of constructive experience that would be relevant to its use for epilepsy.

 

[zand]

Looking at my footnote -
Type 2 in 2000, 3x500 metformin, reduced carb diet
HBA Jan 08 - 6.7, July 09 - 6.2, January 10 - 5.9, October 12 - 6.3
No diabetic complications.

My HbA1c has drifted up over the 10 years & steadied at 6.7.
My average readings - fasting/before/after meals were 7.3 at the end of April. I then reduced my carbs towards keto & the average is now 6.9.

My interest in keto is for my 5 y-o granddaughter Ava who is suffering from epilepsy. Her parents think she is also suffering from side effects of powerful medication. The hospital at last is advising a keto diet for her.

It seems that the dietitians are seeking to maintain strict control & advise against trying it without their strict supervision. Parents have been aware of the diet for months - not just from me - but a non-keto diet is the typical high carb/sugar, low fat diet that is bad for everyone.

I think the sustained use of a near keto diet by members of this forum offers a massive database of constructive experience that would be relevant to its use for epilepsy.

In the case of childhood epilepsy isn't the period advised for keto restricted to something like 2 years? Sorry no references, just something I think I remember someone telling me. Could be wrong of course.

 

[IanD]

In the case of childhood epilepsy isn't the period advised for keto restricted to something like 2 years? Sorry no references, just something I think I remember someone telling me. Could be wrong of course.

This wiki-keto report is very thorough.

Relaxing the diet once it has been effective is normal. We need to maintain normal growth & development.

 

[Honeyend]

I think this is Diabetes.uk’s latest statement on low carb:
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/profess...style/low-carb-diets-for-people-with-diabetes

Well its better than nothing.

I am a HCP and I am feel like a stick trying to go against the flow of the tide. Even people who should know better just think sugar is the problem and ignore the role of carbohydrate, complex or not. Its disheartening to see people with high RBG eating very little because they are eating the wrong foods under advice from other HCP, and they have the 'supporting evidence' to go with it.
They are advised to have have healthy wholegrain **** for breakfast, and it goes down hill for the rest of the day. So then they binge on something sweet because my figures are rubbish so why not? Then the HCP gives the talk about eating healthy foods and the circle goes round. I would be happy if the circle would get a flat tyre, expecting someone to change the wheel I think is too much to expect at the moment.

 

[Resurgam]

Having brought up two children one rather more low carb than the other - the one with the higher carb intake is the shorter one and is not so robust as might be.
The taller one is well over 6 foot, slender but well made, got a degree in computer software at university and it seems that he only had to grin mischievously at his wife for her to fall pregnant - they have four offspring so far - so the idea that low carb is going to stunt the development of a child could be in error - perhaps the restrictions are extended to more than carbs to try to get as close to the accepted rules of a healthy diet?

 

[zand]

Having brought up two children one rather more low carb than the other - the one with the higher carb intake is the shorter one and is not so robust as might be.
The taller one is well over 6 foot, slender but well made, got a degree in computer software at university and it seems that he only had to grin mischievously at his wife for her to fall pregnant - they have four offspring so far - so the idea that low carb is going to stunt the development of a child could be in error - perhaps the restrictions are extended to more than carbs to try to get as close to the accepted rules of a healthy diet?

Yes me too! My child with the higher carb intake is the shorter one too.

 

[Daibell]

Well its better than nothing.

I am a HCP and I am feel like a stick trying to go against the flow of the tide. Even people who should know better just think sugar is the problem and ignore the role of carbohydrate, complex or not. Its disheartening to see people with high RBG eating very little because they are eating the wrong foods under advice from other HCP, and they have the 'supporting evidence' to go with it.
They are advised to have have healthy wholegrain **** for breakfast, and it goes down hill for the rest of the day. So then they binge on something sweet because my figures are rubbish so why not? Then the HCP gives the talk about eating healthy foods and the circle goes round. I would be happy if the circle would get a flat tyre, expecting someone to change the wheel I think is too much to expect at the moment.

Hi. As you may have gathered the food industry lobby is the problem on this. PHE advocates the 'bad' advice thru to the NHS and other bodies and if you dig down you find that PHE uses 'research' funded very much by the food industry and big pharma; the (in)famous Eat-Well Guide is a perfect example. PHE has no apparent desire to provide unbiased diet advice despite many of us lobbying ourselves over many years. At least this forum does it's bit in helping those who do end-up here.