Meat And Insulin Production/diabetes And Also Inflammation

[Guzzler]

I follow a generally low carb diet, (perhaps not quite as low as most people on here because I do not worry about below ground veg), because big white carbs and indeed big brown carbs are usually high in calories and I am trying to go low calorie. I shall now keep meat for special occasions and prefer fish, eggs and pulses as sources of protein. I do not propose to go vegan or even veggie as I enjoy meat and animal foods.

My mistake, I thought you followed ND.

Edited to add. Just realised, you follow a lower carb diet so this makes you a low carber.

 

[JohnEGreen]

I follow a generally low carb diet, (perhaps not quite as low as most people on here because I do not worry about below ground veg), because big white carbs and indeed big brown carbs are usually high in calories and I am trying to go low calorie. I shall now keep meat for special occasions and prefer fish, eggs and pulses as sources of protein. I do not propose to go vegan or even veggie as I enjoy meat and animal foods.

A lower carb diet is pretty meaningless lower than what 100 gms 200 gm 300gm 500 gm per day or a 1000 gms could you be more specific please.

 

[LooperCat]

Then I strongly urge you to read the links I posted above, since beans, lentils and some fish are more insulinogenic than red and white meats.

I need to inject a lot for white fish, so I suspect it’s quite insulinogenic for people with pancreases...

 

[lucylocket61]

I myself believe what he is saying about meat causing inflammation and shall heed his warning.

even thought the science behind it is dodgy?

I assumed the title of this thread meant you wanted to open up a discussion about the subject, based on the linked article. I was wrong. You were making a statement of your belief, and are not open to looking at it. Which is your choice and right.

 

[Geoffno6]

I am interested in nutrition and sometimes come across an article I think might be of interest to forum members. As inflammation is a major cause of cardiovascular disease and atherosclerosis I thought members might be keen to avoid it.I personally am neither vegan nor even vegetarian and never would be - I like meat too much. But having read this, I intend to treat it like chocolate and other things I love, but are bad for me, and save it for high days and holidays. I hadn't heard of meat causing insulin resistance but this doesn't sound too good either. I don't think everything a person says is necessarily wrong, just because he is a vegan, any more than everything any of you say is wrong just because you are low carbers.

There’s one big difference between this Mr Vegan and some of us. I personally didn’t think of it as a choice when the doctor didn’t tell me I had high blood sugar in 2013, I ignored all the symptoms because I’d had a blood test, then 6 weeks back find out that I have some very nice neuropathy, cataracts, blurred vision, weight loss and a Hba1c of 120.
I could ‘choose’ to eat porridge, fruit, cauliflower, salad etc but it doubles my blood sugar increasing the damage already done. Unlike not wanting animals killed and not wanting cows and hens in captivity because ‘I don’t like it’ this is natural survival instinct kicking in and being a normal human and avoiding going blind or having limbs amputated.

Frightening people not to do something that protects them because your giving them a ‘frying pan or fire’ option based on some reactions of mice, is not only bad science but irresponsible.

I’ll get off my soapbox now and unlike this vegan guy apologise if my research is bad and some of my facts are wrong. I’ve only picked up on the content of this thread.

P.S. is inflammation worse for your heart than pumping vein rotting, sugary blood through it?

 

[Tannith]

A lower carb diet is pretty meaningless lower than what 100 gms 200 gm 300gm 500 gm per day or a 1000 gms could you be more specific please.

Sorry i can't, I don't weigh it. I mostly avoid grains altogether, but as I said don't worry about below ground veggies or pulses. My purpose is to eat a low calorie diet. That happens to turn out to be low carb.

 

[TonyHancock]

Sorry i can't, I don't weigh it. I mostly avoid grains altogether, but as I said don't worry about below ground veggies or pulses. My purpose is to eat a low calorie diet. That happens to turn out to be low carb.

I followed the Blood Sugar Diet, sticking to 800 Calories a day and found that I finished up being on a low carb diet effectively. I didn't specifically count carbs but it became clear I was taking between 20 and 50g per day.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

"Science Says All Meat Causes Inflammation"

I sincerely wish people would stop posting vegan propaganda on this forum. It's just plain silly.

 

[JohnEGreen]

Sorry i can't, I don't weigh it. I mostly avoid grains altogether, but as I said don't worry about below ground veggies or pulses. My purpose is to eat a low calorie diet. That happens to turn out to be low carb.

Still tells me little about what you define as low carb especially as you say you only count calories and don't know how many carbs you eat also how do you determine how many calories you eat by the way.

 

[JohnEGreen]

Of course you may be lucky enough to have access to one of these maybe

 

[Guzzler]

Of course you may be lucky enough to have access to one of these maybe

View attachment 27940

A tea urn and thumb screws, well who'd a thunk!

 

[bulkbiker]

A tea urn and thumb screws, well who'd a thunk!

That's probably what most of the WFPB science is based on...

 

[lucylocket61]

Sorry i can't, I don't weigh it. I mostly avoid grains altogether, but as I said don't worry about below ground veggies or pulses. My purpose is to eat a low calorie diet. That happens to turn out to be low carb.

its not the weight of the food, its the carbs that food contains which we count.

how do you know you eat a low carb diet if you have no idea how many carbs you are eating? If I said I have no idea how much fat I ate, but said I ate a low fat diet because i dont eat butter, for example, you would ask me the same question. Below ground veg and pulses can add up to a lot of carbs.

As you appear to be basing your view that your are low carbing on the amount of calories you are consuming, how many calories do you eat,

 

[Tannith]

its not the weight of the food, its the carbs that food contains which we count.

how do you know you eat a low carb diet if you have no idea how many carbs you are eating? If I said I have no idea how much fat I ate, but said I ate a low fat diet because i dont eat butter, for example, you would ask me the same question. Below ground veg and pulses can add up to a lot of carbs.

As you appear to be basing your view that your are low carbing on the amount of calories you are consuming, how many calories do you eat,

I'm not claiming to eat a classic low carb diet such as you probably do. Just pointing out that for me, my lowish cal diet (about 1300 -1400 cals) amounts to a kind of low carb diet because I cut most of my "missing" calories by cutting carbs rather than fats. I cut right down on saturated fats because I believe they are bad for me, but eat plenty of monounsaturated in the form of olive oil on my salad, and avocado.
Incidentally does anyone have any evidence that the guy who wrote the article is wrong about meat being inflammatory, other than that he is a vegan? No one has come up with any so far. I was hoping people might know some more about the inflammatory or otherwise properties of meat and perhaps be able to direct me to some evidnce one way or the other.

 

[JohnEGreen]

Here you go.

"In conclusion, the results of this study suggest that a modest increase in the intake of lean red meat in iron-replete individuals is unlikely to increase oxidative stress or inflammation. This conclusion is limited to the short term when lean red meat provided to participants partially replaces carbohydrate in the diet. Our results do not support the suggestion that higher red meat intake leads to increased risk of heart disease and type 2 diabetes via effects of iron to increase oxidative stress and inflammation."

https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/137/2/363/4664544

 

[AlcalaBob]

This is really unscientific stuff, quite disingenuous. It uses a few true scientific statements which are not relevant together with tendentious claims that are not evidenced.

The seven reasons given all fall apart:
1. Meat elevates levels of C-reactive protein. Meat 'associates' with elevated CRP. That means nothing. Drowning is associated with increased consumption of ice cream. Unless there's a credible claim of causality, we should ignore the statement.

2. Meat causes insulin resistance. What is cited here is in fact that eating things causes insulin release. There are many well-established mechanisms for this, none specifically related to meat alone. There is no evidence given to support the claim. It's just an unsubstantiated claim.

3. Meat raises insulin-like growth factor 1, IGF1. There are many things that do this and it's not at all necessarily bad. IGF1 is apparently 'linked to' - see above about ice cream and drowning. This is not a scientific argument.

4. Meat produces trimethylamine-N-oxide. So what? We also produce 70% of our cholesterol in the body. We also produce formaldehyde... Again, so what? The long name tries to give scientific credibility to a non-statement. It's supposed to worry us.

5. Accumulation of 'persistent organic pollutants' - this is a cracker. Not only are these not specified, but instead we are treated to a list of 'dangerous' chemicals. This is just plain dishonest.

6. Advanced glycation end-products... This is just what you get when you cook something that contains proteins or fats. As they cook, they brown... In cooking it's called the Maillard reaction. This is not something sinister. It actually tastes nice.

7. Meat can cause an allergic reaction. Well... lots of things can but we have an immune system that generally deals with it. This is trying to tie into the popular worries and concerns about allergies. Nothing more.

Bottom line? This is a really dishonest piece of writing that a reputable scientist would never have written. A salesman probably would though. It's a shame that there's so much of this type of material around. It worries people and distorts our understanding of how human biology works, and all just to sell stuff.

 

[kokhongw]

I was hoping people might know some more about the inflammatory or otherwise properties of meat and perhaps be able to direct me to some evidnce one way or the other.

While this study did not focus on meat per say...it clearly shows that carbs are inflammatory...
Meal rich in carbohydrate, but not protein or fat, reveals adverse immunometabolic responses associated with obesity
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5131405/

Results
Expression of NF-κB and TNFα genes were greater; whereas that of TGFβ and IL-6 genes were lower, in the OIR compared to the LIS individuals. The differences were significantly greater after the HC meal, but not after the HP or HF meal. Similar results were obtained for plasma concentrations of TNFα and IL-6.
Conclusions
Our findings indicate that a single HC meal has a distinct adverse effect on immunometabolic responses in the OIR individuals. The cumulative effect of such adverse responses to meals rich in carbohydrate may predispose the OIR individuals to a higher risk of cardiovascular disease.

 

[Brunneria]

does anyone have any evidence that the guy who wrote the article is wrong about meat being inflammatory, other than that he is a vegan? No one has come up with any so far. I was hoping people might know some more about the inflammatory or otherwise properties of meat and perhaps be able to direct me to some evidnce one way or the other.

You are asking the wrong question.
Almost all foods cause inflammatory and insulinogenic responses. That is part of what happens when we eat.

The question you should be asking is does meat cause a greater inflammatory response than other foods?

And that question is quite simply NO, and plenty of evidence has been provided for you earlier up the thread, including 2 links that I provided, one that @JohnEGreen has provided, and numerous comments by others, including significant personal experiences.

In particular (as I posted above) the fish and beans that you propose to eat instead of meat are significantly more inflammatory than the meat you intend to avoid, since they provoke a higher insulin reaction which is in itself inflammatory.

If someone wishes to follow a vegan way of eating then they can do so, but using the article quoted in your original post, arguing that meat is bad for the reasons given, is illogical.

Additionally, I would like to point out that your olive oil intake is also inflammatory, since it contains polyunsaturated fatty acids, which are a well known cause of inflammation. In fact it contains more polyunsaturated fatty acids than butter, coconut oil, coconut butter and tallow. It also contains saturated fats that you say you believe are harmful.

https://www.palmoilandfood.eu/en/fatty-acid-composition

Blaming meat for inflammation is illogical, when there are so many other sources that we ingest on a daily basis, and other environmental, genetic and lifestyle causes that also factor in.

 

[lucylocket61]

other than that he is a vegan?

I repeat: no-one has said he is wrong because he is a vegan. he is wrong because he is wrong, regardless of his diet.

 

[lucylocket61]

I'm not claiming to eat a classic low carb diet such as you probably do.

you either eat a low carb diet, or you dont. Low carb is under 130g of carbohydrates a day maximum. If you dont know how many you are eating, you do not know if you are eating low carb or not.