Stop Keto Now - The Mice Have Spoken!

[Mr_Pot]

Chick peas are 61% carb.

You worried me there as I had some chick peas with my lunch. According to my Napolina Chick Peas tin, 100g drained weight contains 15.7g carbs. That doesn't detract from your argument, just mentioned it in case it puts anyone off chick peas. You would have to check with a budgerigar about the millet.

 

[lucylocket61]

You worried me there as I had some chick peas with my lunch. According to my Napolina Chick Peas tin, 100g drained weight contains 15.7g carbs. That doesn't detract from your argument, just mentioned it in case it puts anyone off chick peas. You would have to check with a budgerigar about the millet.

I dont know much about chick peas. I a quarter of a can an average serving and would it be sufficient for the plant based diet? I cant work out how much one would need to get the protein requirements?

Let me know what your budgie says ; )

 

[Indy51]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkins_diet
There are others but I am going back to the early days of Atkins, when the internet was not so actively used, and most early posts were not stored for posterity. Nowadays there are techniques to swamp out bad press and adverse comment

This is what Webmd has to say about the ORIGINAL diet (#1)

https://www.webmd.com/diet/features/how-safe-is-atkins-diet#1

The revamped diet reduces the protein and increases the vegetable content, and also is higher fat,

Even Wikipedia classed that article as problematic. The anonymous author lost me at "Atkins is classed as a low carbohydrate fad diet". Very poorly written over all.

The Webmd article also lost me when it started quoted that well-known vegan doctor, Neil Barnard on the socalled "dangers". The next critic was a sports trainer, ***.

Total beatup.

Edited to add: I've seen mentioned elsewhere that Webmd is a WFPB front organisation. Not sure if it's true, but I'll be treating them as a biased source from now on, especially after reading that hatchet job on Atkins.

 

[Tannith]

I have just looked up WFPB diet and i couldnt even go there: https://www.forksoverknives.com/whole-food-plant-based-diet/#gs.2zz4O44

I cant eat fruit (sugar spikes)
tubers and starch veg (ditto)
wholegrains( ditto except a couple of slices of wholemeal bread a day)
legums(sugar spikes)

And NO fats at all. Even I, in my very limited knowledge, know humans need some oils/fats in our diet.

From the NHS website:

it basically a high carb vegan diet. For example, Chick peas are 61% carb. Millet is 73% carbs.
It would finish me off faster than the Eatwell plate would. Perhaps its Ok for non T2's, apart from the potential vitamin deficiency of fat soluble vitamins, but not for me.

I had no idea there were people out there recommending such a dangerous diet for T2's

edited to add: so this diet is not wrong because it contains a lot of veg, but because it contains virtually nothing else, and is very high carb.

Yes it does sound a bit extreme - even though it only minimises meat dairy and oils - you can apparently eat some.. Still I wouldn't want to eat it.

 

[Tannith]

@lucylocket61
Well from my limited experience keto for me would be fewer than 20g of carbs per day as a start.
That seems to be the level that virtually guarantees nutritional ketosis in 99% of people. Once in ketosis (and if wanting to stay there) then carbs could be re-introduced in a staged way to see when ketosis stops.
Or, and the way I do it, is to carry on with fewer than 20g of carbs per day as that seems to be the way my body responds best.
I have never really bothered with the protein or fat macros although I do record them and eat well over the recommended protein amounts daily. This has been especially the case since going 95% carnivore (I still may sometimes have avocado or olives although rarely).
I rarely measure my ketone levels due to the cost but whenever I do I seem to be between 0.5 and 1.5 so comfortably within the range. I try to keep things simple so eat 1 or 2 meals a day usually after 1 pm and before 9 pm so have a nice fasting window too.
I'm happy to answer any further questions but can't think of anything else at the mo.
Hope that helps.
Mark

So it seems I was right in thinking the almost non existent veg and high fat were part of the keto. Each to his own. That may suit you but a diet low in veg is not for me. My granny always told me to eat my greens - she would turn in her grave!

 

[lucylocket61]

So it seems I was right in thinking the almost non existent veg and high fat were part of the keto. Each to his own. That may suit you but a diet low in veg is not for me. My granny always told me to eat my greens - she would turn in her grave!

They are part of @bulkbiker 's choice in how to eat keto. I think you are confusing the different ways people choose to eat keto. Keto is finding the carb level in which ones body uses fat as its preferred energy source. And that figure will vary for different people.

 

[lucylocket61]

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/180858.php very informative article on ketosis.

ketosis, and ketoacidosis are two different things. T2's not on any drugs but metformin will not get ketoacidosis. I have learned so much today.

paging @Tannith lots of lovely veggie available if eating keto: https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto/vegetables

I totally recommend reading around the diet doctor website.

 

[zand]

@Tannith I have already told you that I eat a plateful of veggies for my one meal a day most days and am doing keto. You said you do the same so have been eating keto without realising it...then you say keto isn't for you! Maybe @bulkbiker s version of keto isn't for you, but your diet seems very like mine and I have been in ketosis for 20 days now and lost 13 lbs. I suspect that when you did the ND you were in ketosis for some of the time too. Being in ketosis is keto. It doesn't matter what you eat to get there as long as you find your personal carb limit and eat below that limit. I think mine is around 30g, but prefer to stay at the 20g level if I can.

Since you have already lost your excess weight I do agree with you that keto probably isn't for you. You don't need to be as strict as those of us who still have weight to lose.

 

[bulkbiker]

So it seems I was right in thinking the almost non existent veg and high fat were part of the keto. Each to his own. That may suit you but a diet low in veg is not for me. My granny always told me to eat my greens - she would turn in her grave!

Not at all.. you are misunderstanding.. 20g of carbs can fit in quite a lot of veg if you want. 1 kilo of broccoli contains 18g of carbs.. is that enough veg for you?

 

[Robbity]

As I understand it ketone production is perfectly natural and under normal circumstances quite safe and how our bodies should behave. And it's a means to an end and not an end in itself. (A prime example is breast fed babies who live on a diet of fatty milk and are apparently in ketosis as a result).

Ketones only become an issue (i.e. ketoacidosis /DKA) if

• there is a severe shortage of available insulin (i.e. usually T1 or insulin dependent T2)
  
• glucose levels are very high
• ketone levels are very high

which results in an uncontrollable buildup of acids in the blood, which can cause coma and even death if untreated.

Our bodies were designed to work in a dual fuel mode using both carbohydrates (in the form of glucose) and fats for fuel, but with high carbohydrate diets while we can still store carbs in fatty form but we appear to lose the abilty to retrieve them as fuel. Carbs are short term, quick access fuel but since we can't store them in large amounts in easily retrievable form we need to top up regularly. But we have an abilty to store and retrieve vast quantities of fatty fuel, but can only access these if/when we're keto/fat adapted - and not relying all the time on our easy quick access carby fuel.

Eating a ketogenic diet (i.e. few enough carbs for a long enough period) will persuade our bodies back into being able to access stored fat again - we become keto or fat adapted. While it's generally recommended that going very low carb e.g. under 20-25g carbs a day to guarantee ketosis quickly, once we've "re-configured " it's not lways necessary to maintain this low level of carby consumption, so what we eat is entirely a matter of sensible low carb choices. Our meters will help tell how we manage this.

I've said previously I think many low carbers who lose weight and/or reduce glucose levels and maintain them, have plenty of energy, are not hungry all the time and have a decent level of mental clarity will be in ketosis whether they are aware of it or not.

And finally when we're properly fat adapted we may not be "in ketosis" all the time, we can pop in and out depending on different fuel levels and how or what we're actually eating or burning.

(Very strict ketogenic diets are used for therapeutic purposes - e.g. managing epiliepsy in children but we don't necessarily need to eat at this level to manage our diabetes.)

Robbity

 

[Mr_Pot]

As I understand it ketone production is perfectly natural and under normal circumstances quite safe and how our bodies should behave. And it's a means to an end and not an end in itself. (A prime example is breast fed babies who live on a diet of fatty milk and are apparently in ketosis as a result).

Ketones only become an issue (i.e. ketoacidosis /DKA) if

• there is a severe shortage of available insulin (i.e. usually T1 or insulin dependent T2)
  
• glucose levels are very high
• ketone levels are very high

which results in an uncontrollable buildup of acids in the blood, which can cause coma and even death if untreated.

Our bodies were designed to work in a dual fuel mode using both carbohydrates (in the form of glucose) and fats for fuel, but with high carbohydrate diets while we can still store carbs in fatty form but we appear to lose the abilty to retrieve them as fuel. Carbs are short term, quick access fuel but since we can't store them in large amounts in easily retrievable form we need to top up regularly. But we have an abilty to store and retrieve vast quantities of fatty fuel, but can only access these if/when we're keto/fat adapted - and not relying all the time on our easy quick access carby fuel.

Eating a ketogenic diet (i.e. few enough carbs for a long enough period) will persuade our bodies back into being able to access stored fat again - we become keto or fat adapted. While it's generally recommended that going very low carb e.g. under 20-25g carbs a day to guarantee ketosis quickly, once we've "re-configured " it's not lways necessary to maintain this low level of carby consumption, so what we eat is entirely a matter of sensible low carb choices. Our meters will help tell how we manage this.

I've said previously I think many low carbers who lose weight and/or reduce glucose levels and maintain them, have plenty of energy, are not hungry all the time and have a decent level of mental clarity will be in ketosis whether they are aware of it or not.

And finally when we're properly fat adapted we may not be "in ketosis" all the time, we can pop in and out depending on different fuel levels and how or what we're actually eating or burning.

(Very strict ketogenic diets are used for therapeutic purposes - e.g. managing epiliepsy in children but we don't necessarily need to eat at this level to manage our diabetes.)

Robbity

You seem to be saying there is a threshold of ketosis, that when crossed makes you "fat adapted", a bit like passing your driving test and being able to drive on your own.
Others have said everyone passes in and out of ketosis daily depending on the availability of glucose and it is a normal bodily function.
I don't know which of these is correct, maybe it doesn't matter if people are achieving their bg or weight targets, but I would be interested to know.

 

[bulkbiker]

You seem to be saying there is a threshold of ketosis, that when crossed makes you "fat adapted", a bit like passing your driving test and being able to drive on your own.
Others have said everyone passes in and out of ketosis daily depending on the availability of glucose and it is a normal bodily function.
I don't know which of these is correct, maybe it doesn't matter if people are achieving their bg or weight targets, but I would be interested to know.

It depends what you want to achieve. Being in ketosis constantly allows you to become fat adapted where you are running almost exclusively on dietary or body fat (an protein obviously) which is where the "effortless" weight loss can come from. If you are simply dipping in and out of ketosis by say fasting overnight then you are still not able to access your fat stores for energy all the time. Once "fat adapted" and without eating carbs to knock you out then fasting becomes far easier which will burn stored fat fairly quickly. It is a factor of a "threshold" and time. It can take weeks for some people to access their fat stores. It would also be something to do with having low enough levels of insulin to switch from "storage" mode to burn mode. Again a process which is negatively impacted by carb consumption.

 

[Mr_Pot]

It is a factor of a "threshold" and time. It can take weeks for some people to access their fat stores.

How is it then that the general public in their non keto state don't just get fatter and fatter if they can store fat but not access it?

 

[bulkbiker]

How is it then that the general public in their non keto state don't just get fatter and fatter if they can store fat but not access it?

Because they have a regular insulin function.

 

[JohnEGreen]

How is it then that the general public in their non keto state don't just get fatter and fatter if they can store fat but not access it?

To a degree is that not what is happening as we seem to be in the midst of an epidemic of obesity.

 

[rab5]

Even Wikipedia classed that article as problematic. The anonymous author lost me at "Atkins is classed as a low carbohydrate fad diet". Very poorly written over all.

The Webmd article also lost me when it started quoted that well-known vegan doctor, Neil Barnard on the socalled "dangers". The next critic was a sports trainer, ***.

Total beatup.

Edited to add: I've seen mentioned elsewhere that Webmd is a WFPB front organisation. Not sure if it's true, but I'll be treating them as a biased source from now on, especially after reading that hatchet job on Atkins.

I couldn’t agree more awful links. Sorry

 

[Birdwoman]

@lucylocket61
Well from my limited experience keto for me would be fewer than 20g of carbs per day as a start.
That seems to be the level that virtually guarantees nutritional ketosis in 99% of people. Once in ketosis (and if wanting to stay there) then carbs could be re-introduced in a staged way to see when ketosis stops.
Or, and the way I do it, is to carry on with fewer than 20g of carbs per day as that seems to be the way my body responds best.
I have never really bothered with the protein or fat macros although I do record them and eat well over the recommended protein amounts daily. This has been especially the case since going 95% carnivore (I still may sometimes have avocado or olives although rarely).
I rarely measure my ketone levels due to the cost but whenever I do I seem to be between 0.5 and 1.5 so comfortably within the range. I try to keep things simple so eat 1 or 2 meals a day usually after 1 pm and before 9 pm so have a nice fasting window too.
I'm happy to answer any further questions but can't think of anything else at the mo.
Hope that helps.
Mark

Thanks for telling us your take on Keto. I know every person is different and what their body works best to, is also different but you have just smashed my thoughts totally!! I am still trying to sort out my mid morning numbers and my thought were coming to the conclusion that I must be having too much protein! Now I don't know!!

 

[rab5]

I don’t think protein is a problem.

 

[bulkbiker]

Thanks for telling us your take on Keto. I know every person is different and what their body works best to, is also different but you have just smashed my thoughts totally!! I am still trying to sort out my mid morning numbers and my thought were coming to the conclusion that I must be having too much protein! Now I don't know!!

What's the problem with your mid morning numbers? What kind of stuff are you eating?

 

[Tannith]

@Tannith I have already told you that I eat a plateful of veggies for my one meal a day most days and am doing keto. You said you do the same so have been eating keto without realising it...then you say keto isn't for you! Maybe @bulkbiker s version of keto isn't for you, but your diet seems very like mine and I have been in ketosis for 20 days now and lost 13 lbs. I suspect that when you did the ND you were in ketosis for some of the time too. Being in ketosis is keto. It doesn't matter what you eat to get there as long as you find your personal carb limit and eat below that limit. I think mine is around 30g, but prefer to stay at the 20g level if I can.

Since you have already lost your excess weight I do agree with you that keto probably isn't for you. You don't need to be as strict as those of us who still have weight to lose.

Thank you. Well done with the weight loss