Are we really wrong about fat?

[ghost_whistler]

Chris Kresser and Dr Joel Khan, a vegan i believe, had a discussion online. General consensus was that the former won. Naturally vegans and low fat fans were not happy. However I came across this which seems to offer a particularly detailed analysis of the sience regarding sat fats. I'm deeply concerned about this. Unfortunately this is a huge video so ive tried to find the relevant part. I don't care that Zoe Harcombe wrote diet books (she's mentioned first). I care that she's right. Unfortunately also I am not a research scientist, I have no idea if, when you get into the guts of a study, that things can be missed or misinterpreted when you look at the really technical analytical tools. Like most people I'm a layman, but I do not want to play games with my hearlth. If sat fat is unhealthy and cholesterol does cause heart attacks, I want to know. I do not thinkt he community treats this seriously enough. Can we be sure the science is as settled as people claim?

 

[Guzzler]

Science is never settled, it grows like a living breathing animal.
Which community doesn't take things seriously? Us? Here? We are here specifically because we want to learn as much as we can about our health and how we can improve it.
I have spent almost as much time reading/listening to information on cholesterol/saturated fat as I have on Type 2 Diabetes, beleive me I take this stuff seriously.

 

[ghost_whistler]

The keto community at large.

This isn't aimed at individuals, but that there is a trend, IMO, toward not addressing claims like this.

This is a particularly thorough sounding refutation and as such it needs to be addressed and that is what I'm looking for.

If we are wrong about fat then that is a big problem. That's not to say everyone who eats eggs and butter will drop dead, but that there are serious enough risks involved, more than just the 'everything is a risk' variety. That's what this guy is saying by pointing out, rightly or wrongly, that the high fat interpretation is based on flawed reading of the data. So for example he mentions controlling for serum cholesterol in such a way that it renders the study flawed because you've taken it out of the equation. Is that true? I don't know.

I even tweeted zoe harcombe about this but i doubt she'll respond as she's likely busy and I'm nobody famous

 

[Guzzler]

From the single comment you mention I wouldn't like to comment as I have not heard it said in context.

I think I dropped lucky in that I sought out the biology first rather than opinion/interpretation of data. I did no decision making until I understood and was comfortable with my knowledge base. I too am a lay person but even I understood that the diet/heart hypothesis promulgated by Ancel Keys was flawed and even the sat fat detractors no longer quote it.

 

[NicoleC1971]

I will watch this and try to do so with an open miind. I am not a scientist either but have enough of a brain to understand the quality of some research. Denise Minger wrote a great chapter on how to decode this type of research in her book 'Death by food Pyramid'.
However I really like the N of 1 idea that you would try a way of eating and see how your own body responds by looking at key markers such as trigs/HDL, inflammation (CRP), your HBA1c, liver function, blood pressure, feeling of well being and see how the approach you have chosen is working for you. Any approach you take will have pros and cons as will choosing not to change but sticking to the low fat and high carb approach may be more dangerous but if you are doing so as part of a vegan diet then it is likely you will be cutting out sugar and eating many more vegetables. There is a lot in common between seemingly diverse approaches.

 

[zand]

Like you @ghost_whistler I am not a research scientist. I have no way of knowing who is right in the sat fats argument and as I am 60 years old now I doubt the argument will be fully settled before I die. All I do know is that being overweight isn't good for my health. Now I am eating sat fats again I am losing weight and that's good enough for me to continue doing what I am doing.

Like @NicoleC1971 I look at my blood tests results and these have all improved since I started LCHF and brought butter and lard back into my life. Of course at the same time as doing that I stopped eating a lot of carbs, so I don't really know which side of the equation has helped me. I would guess that it's both?

 

[Guzzler]

If there is one piece of advice on fats that I would give all members it would be to read up and listen up to the evidence on fats that we should be avoiding and they are trans fats (man made) and more especially the man made polyunsaturated fats such as those in cooking (vegetable/seed) oils.

 

[NicoleC1971]

Like you @ghost_whistler I am not a research scientist. I have no way of knowing who is right in the sat fats argument and as I am 60 years old now I doubt the argument will be fully settled before I die. All I do know is that being overweight isn't good for my health. Now I am eating sat fats again I am losing weight and that's good enough for me to continue doing what I am doing.

Like @NicoleC1971 I look at my blood tests results and these have all improved since I started LCHF and brought butter and lard back into my life. Of course at the same time as doing that I stopped eating a lot of carbs, so I don't really know which side of the equation has helped I would guess that it's both?

That is why it is so hard to know which part of the lifestyle is working but I'd say it is likely that had you gone low carb and low fat then you'd have found the diet unsustainable thus the fat is vital to getting carbs low. I think it is daft to say people can walk up to the keto buffet table and eat as many fat bombs with BP coffee as they desire and l dislike the trend to invent keto junk food which does not resemble anything we evolved to eat but there seems to b little evidence that it leads to either raised cholesterol or heart disease in most people. Hence those dietary guidelines that started with low fat and low cholesterol, then just low fat and now just low in saturated fat will hopefully continue to evolve.

 

[bulkbiker]

From the comments beneath the video

"Avi is an invaluable resource to the vegan community"

so he's going to be completely unbiased then..?

 

[bulkbiker]

Some interesting re-appraisal of one of the most pro vege / vegan studies.. the China study

https://twitter.com/fralongva/status/1046108905707896832

 

[Hotpepper20000]

I think there is a big misconception that Keto is HIGH fat. There is no need for fat bombs and massive amounts of butter.
When I eat full fat dairy, small knobs of butter on some things. And I feel better for it.

 

[ghost_whistler]

I will watch this and try to do so with an open miind. I am not a scientist either but have enough of a brain to understand the quality of some research. Denise Minger wrote a great chapter on how to decode this type of research in her book 'Death by food Pyramid'.
However I really like the N of 1 idea that you would try a way of eating and see how your own body responds by looking at key markers such as trigs/HDL, inflammation (CRP), your HBA1c, liver function, blood pressure, feeling of well being and see how the approach you have chosen is working for you. Any approach you take will have pros and cons as will choosing not to change but sticking to the low fat and high carb approach may be more dangerous but if you are doing so as part of a vegan diet then it is likely you will be cutting out sugar and eating many more vegetables. There is a lot in common between seemingly diverse approaches.

Thanks.

What does Denise say about this sort of research? I haven't read any of her books.

N=1 is all well and good, but health issues can manifest over time. Diabetes for example if you spend years eating junk sugar. That's how I believe i got hypogycmia

 

[ghost_whistler]

Like you @ghost_whistler I am not a research scientist. I have no way of knowing who is right in the sat fats argument and as I am 60 years old now I doubt the argument will be fully settled before I die. All I do know is that being overweight isn't good for my health. Now I am eating sat fats again I am losing weight and that's good enough for me to continue doing what I am doing.

Like @NicoleC1971 I look at my blood tests results and these have all improved since I started LCHF and brought butter and lard back into my life. Of course at the same time as doing that I stopped eating a lot of carbs, so I don't really know which side of the equation has helped me. I would guess that it's both?

Right, that's what's so frustrating about this. I have no alternative. High carb? No thanks that wrecked my metabolism; pasta rice bread were staples for so long that I couldn't see how you could eat differently. That and of course relying on junk food to deal with carb crashes. That's certainly not ideal. Would a vegan diet be any better? Maybe vegan low carb, but that would be so restrictive as to be too difficult, sourcing ingredients. Vegan in general? Plant food just isn't satiating. You'd have to eat loads and loads of nuts and avocados (which isn't so bad, but nothing else). good luck findinf fermented soy!

 

[johnme]

You can’t help noticing that if you follow a low carb diet your shopping tends to veer away from processed food and towards whole ingredients. A low carb diet might as well be described as a low processed diet. It really is remarkable. As someone in his mid 60s I’d have to say too that (apart from bread and Spuds) it’s what we ate when I was a kid. Quite a number of us (me) got overweight in between. It would be perverse to think the two things aren’t connected.

 

[Bluetit1802]

I eat loads of butter, and fry/roast in either butter or other animal fats. I eat cream and a lot of mayo, eggs, salmon, cheese and FF yogurts. However, I don't, and never have, eaten the fat on meat. I buy lean cuts and cut off any visible fat before eating. (I don't like it). I don't like avocado, nuts of any sort, or olive oil. I am low carb. I also gauge things by my blood markers, blood pressure, blood sugars and weight. After 4 and a half years I seem to be doing pretty well for an un-medicated 70 year old. There aren't too many of us around.

 

[Brunneria]

I’m taking less and less interest in this kind of Fat Debate nowadays.

All the bickering between gurus and their acolytes gets really boring. And their point scoring by radio, video and twitter... yawn.

We ALL know what healthy food looks like, don’t we?
It is unprocessed, and as near fresh as possible.
The less ‘mucked about with’ the better.

Making that idea central to food choices means no processed fats. No processed meats. No chemical preserving. No silly packaging and endless lists of ingredients. It ain’t rocket science.

Both veganism and carnivory (and lots of other ways of eating) can fit into those parameters. Or they can go the other way into frankenfoods. We make the choice. Every day, by what we put on our plates.

As for fat... my body comes from lines of fishermen, butchers, and farm workers. They didn’t eat low fat. They ate oily fish, lamb, beef, pork, mutton, eggs and butter. And carbs, and veg. And they lived to their 80s on all 4 sides of the extended family. They also got T2 when their lives got less manual and more sedentary, and modern food trends shifted towards bigger carb portions, sugar intake rose, and fruit became available year round.

Fat debates are a red herring.

 

[ghost_whistler]

I will watch this and try to do so with an open miind. I am not a scientist either but have enough of a brain to understand the quality of some research. Denise Minger wrote a great chapter on how to decode this type of research in her book 'Death by food Pyramid'.
However I really like the N of 1 idea that you would try a way of eating and see how your own body responds by looking at key markers such as trigs/HDL, inflammation (CRP), your HBA1c, liver function, blood pressure, feeling of well being and see how the approach you have chosen is working for you. Any approach you take will have pros and cons as will choosing not to change but sticking to the low fat and high carb approach may be more dangerous but if you are doing so as part of a vegan diet then it is likely you will be cutting out sugar and eating many more vegetables. There is a lot in common between seemingly diverse approaches.

Thanks.

What does Denise say about this sort of research? I haven't read any of her books.

N=1 is all well and good, but health issues can manifest over time. Diabetes for example if you spend years eating junk sugar. That's how I believe I got hypoglycemia

 

[Lamont D]

Because of my research and discovering my food intolerance.
I have had to discover what happens when I cook something in different ways, using everything from oils, fats and because of my dairy intolerance, I can't eat loads of butter, or get my fats from dairy.
I found out quite early, that vegetable oils were really bad for me, and most of the other manufactured ingredients in production foods, were so bad and effected my health.
I had to get the right balance of fats, protein and vegetables, which are always fresh, and I cook in only saturated animal fats. Which I have found to be healthy for me. I repeat for me!
It is all about you, and what is healthy for you!
The argument is moot, if you experiment, and find that balance. Which improves your health, which is what you are looking for!

 

[TheFloppyOne]

I use butter, oil and cheese in moderation. The fat that I seek out is high quality animal fat such as bacon, ribeye steak and mackerel. Lean protein just makes my insulin jump and the outcome is excessive tiredness.

Butter is best used to soften vegetables in my opinion. A small amount say 10g is enough to shrink a 200g bag of curly kale to fill a 500ml container. As long as its used to enable a high intake of leafy greens I don't see a problem with it because the benefits of cleaning your liver outweigh the fat being held in your arteries.

If Butter is a problem use Avacado or Olive oil.

 

[pdmjoker]

Can we be sure the science is as settled as people claim?

This page by Dr Malcolm Kendrick discusses the history of the establishment view of sat. fat and also the process of fat digestion, which I found helpful. His language is colourful on a couple of occasions, but please don't hold that against him!

He explains why studies where saturated fats were replaced by polyunsaturated fats from plant oils show a decrease in LDL, but why that doesn't imply saturated fats raise LDL. Also, the (probably) unbiased BBC trial is surely of interest, and has since been published in the BMJ...

https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2018/...t-cannot-raise-cholesterol-levels-ldl-levels/