Carb treat: on its own or with a meal?

[LalaALH]

I'm trying to take a scientific approach to understanding my T2 diabetes and am on a fresh food version of the Newcastle diet (powders don't agree with me - not enough fibre, even with the green veg).

I'm wondering how best to manage occasional carb treats. IFor example, does it make any difference whether I have a slice of my wholemeal spelt and seed loaf and butter with my main meal, or later in the day on its own?

I've discovered that a good way to reduce any spikes is a brisk walk immediately afterwards. But I'm just wondering if having a meal at the same time - bringing down the average carbs of the food - also moderates blood sugars?

I'm making good progress with my blood sugars thanks to a great lady at my Diabetes clinic who gave me a testing kit. Have lost 4.5 kg, 24 to go.

But I would love at some stage when I've lost all the excess weight I'm carrying, to be able to go with a friend to a tea shop and have a slice of cake or jam & cream scone! I'm certainly not going to have this until I've tried my damnedest to tame my weight, fitness and T2D - but It would help to know that at the end of the road this is not an impossible dream!

Any tips for controlling the impact of an occasional treat would be welcome.

 

[Rachox]

If and when you do this, of the two options you cite I suspect the scone with cream option would be better as the fat in the cream would slow the spike, however the jam might counteract that as it’s high percentage sugar.
Personally I’m 17 months from diagnosis and when I go to coffee shops I go armed with a protein bar (like phd smart bar or Carb Killa bar)

 

[Hiitsme]

I did do an afternoon tea about 4 months in. My nurse told me to go ahead so I did. I didn't eat lunch 4.8 before tea and 9 after 2 hours. Back down to normal when I got home and the following day. I haven't tried this again but have had an occasional treat.

 

[Raygower]

In the great scheme of things, an occasional spike is not going to do any harm.

So it rather depends upon how 'occasional' occasional is.
If it is once or twice a week, then a slice of bread and butter with dinner is not going to make any noticeable difference.
Once a month and you will get away with a piece of cheesecake.

 

[Resurgam]

be prepared for a disappointment if the 'treat' is sweet - you could find yourself retching at the awful sweetness of it.
I find that normal food is oversweetened after almost two years eating low carb with very little sweetening from anything either artificial or natural.

 

[LalaALH]

Thanks Rachox for the idea of protein bars - though I think I'd feel deprived! But the cream in the scone is a good point. Maybe take my own fresh raspberries instead of jam! Hiitsme - that's useful to know, there is hope then. And I'm planning on very occasional, Raygower. The bread is really helpful in getting my fibre up, so I've been having a piece each day with my single meal (currently doing 1 meal a day) and a walk after, resulting in readings from 5.4-6.5. I just wondered if there was any rule like don't eat carbs on their own.

 

[Ribbet]

Hey there LalaALH

You sound like you’ve got the right attitude and you making good progress too - well done!

Any addition of carbs in a meal will increase the chances of a spike ie if the Spelt bread is high, it will likely cause an increase in BG even if eaten with other lower carb foods. That is my experience anyway. On it's own would likely be worse depending on what your BG is at the time.

Regarding the spelt bread. My approach to that would be firstly to look at the carb content, then decide if I wanted to do that or not. If the carbs are high, then I’d explore other alternatives for bread that are lower in carbs that satiate that need in the same way but prevent the BG spike. So that may mean making your own if that is an option, but bear i mind it’s a good lifestyle change too if it works for you. So perhaps something to consider. If you search Low Carb Bread, you should find plenty of options, often using a mixture of almond and coconut flour, seeds and the like. Some are petty good and my preference is often toasted as it enhances the flavour of some of them as well.

Regarding the brisk walks - an excellent move! For me, the way I work that is give myself enough time to let the food get into my blood stream so that the walk burns off some of the processed carbs. I find that more effective than immediately after a meal where the food is still processing and thus can still impact my BG even after a walk. Each to their own though, do what works for you.

If you need more fibre, then a teaspoon of psyllium husk spread across a meal or in with a drink each day keeps things moving nicely for me if I’m not getting sufficient from the food I’m consuming. It’s also extremely high fibre so won’t affect BG.

For me regarding treats, I was really strict for the first 6 months of my journey and never gave myself any outing treats such as you described. It’s important if you can do that because during that process the body adjusts so less sugar intake and a lot of the kinds of cravings you describe heavily reduce. Then after that a once a month treat was all I gave for the next 6 months. Just bear in mind though that when you bump the carbs all of a sudden like that, it stimulates the whole body to want more, so beware - you will need lot of self control afterwards to say no and stay on track!

As an alternative, and from a lifestyle point of view, when you get closer to your target weight and the calorie count can come up, I would suggest exploring a low carb higher fat diet and adopting it as a lifestyle as there are plenty of ways low carbers can access treats in their normal every day diet without impacting BG and still maintain healthy blood sugar levels. That dynamic will curb the need for treats on outings, and in fact you will genuinely find yourself not wanting that type of food because the body and mind changes and the right foods have such a positive impact on health and body that you end up not wanting them. I kid you not!
The other thing to bear in mind is a low carb higher fat diet where the carbs are kept quite lo will have a natural effect of causing you to lose weight. I don't want to dissuade you from what you are doing now though. But if you find it becomes too difficult to maintain the very low calories over a longer period of time, consider a LCHF diet instead with carbs below 50g per day and while the weight may take a bit longer to lose, the long term effect will be the same and it will be more maintainable as well.

 

[ickihun]

If I did have a carb treat I had to do a veg only meal afterwards to counter-act the spike.
Try and find or bake the low carb version as the full sugar version trains your mind to a high sugar (high mood) reward. Psychologists do this basic psychy in gcse learning. Learn and response.

 

[LalaALH]

@Ribbet - lots of useful stuff here! Thank you so much. It’s more or less along the lines of my own thinking, too. I’m going for 8 weeks of 1 meal a day low calorie (800-900 cals) which is also an LCHF diet. I find I need 25-30gms fibre a day even when drinking 3.5 litres of water a day. This is really hard to fit into the calories while also getting 60gm protein and a decent mix of veg and nutrients plus under 50 carbs. I’m managing it but it's tough! This is to simulate the sudden calorie restriction of gastric bypass surgery as per the Newcastle diet. After that it will be much more slow loss and maintenance (I have 30 kg to lose.)

My bread is home made with lots of flaxseed and chia and pumpkin seed. I quite like having a small amount of grains or pulses rather than going ketogenic. I will look into switching to the nut flours if I can find them. I already use almond milk with All-Bran and raspberries when needed.

Thanks for all the ideas!

 

[LalaALH]

@ickihun - I’m really hoping to find this reaction and have started training myself. While I agree on the food tbh - I’m already feeling so many things are too sweet - there are some lovely tea spots near me and I love the ambiance, such a pleasant place to be for an hour. But I’m sure they’d warm up something of my own for a good tip!

 

[ickihun]

@Ribbet - lots of useful stuff here! Thank you so much. It’s more or less along the lines of my own thinking, too. I’m going for 8 weeks of 1 meal a day low calorie (800-900 cals) which is also an LCHF diet. I find I need 25-30gms fibre a day even when drinking 3.5 litres of water a day. This is really hard to fit into the calories while also getting 60gm protein and a decent mix of veg and nutrients plus under 50 carbs. I’m managing it but it's tough! This is to simulate the sudden calorie restriction of gastric bypass surgery as per the Newcastle diet. After that it will be much more slow loss and maintenance (I have 30 kg to lose.)

My bread is home made with lots of flaxseed and chia and pumpkin seed. I quite like having a small amount of grains or pulses rather than going ketogenic. I will look into switching to the nut flours if I can find them. I already use almond milk with All-Bran and raspberries when needed.

Thanks for all the ideas!

All-Bran may be counter productive, for some. Do you not spike on that cereal?

 

[LalaALH]

I spiked to 7.4 when I had it with milk, but with almond milk and a brisk 40 min walk my bs was 6.3 2 hours later - so I think I can incorporate it. Nothing else works anything like as well.

 

[Bluetit1802]

You say you already use Flaxseed in your bread, but it can be used in other ways. I use milled flaxseed daily, sprinkled on my food quite generously. I sprinkle it on tomatoes, tinned salmon, egg mayo and in Fage yogurt with a couple of strawberries. It works well for me like that.

As for afternoon tea, when on holiday I treat myself to a piece of Victoria Sponge cake (my favourite) and ask for cream on the side. There is already cream in the cake, along with the jam. Any cream will help with the spike. As long as it is occasional the social and psychological benefit may outweigh any disadvantages. Having said that, I don't need to lose weight and my BS levels are normal so I am not in the same position as you.

I would eat the bread with a meal rather than as a snack. The fewer times we make our pancreas work hard, the better.

 

[LalaALH]

@Bluetit1802 - I have flaxseed so I’ll try pounding it and using it as you suggest. The cream is a useful idea too which I will squirrel away.

The idea behind my one meal a day is to give my pancreas and liver a rest. Before, I was constantly grazing so my base rate was high and I was spiking from that. I’m really encouraged to see the fasting has made a difference - when I fell to a mini binge I was back down to the 6s fast. Having the bs meter means I can see that sharp hunger pangs AREN’T always dangerously low blood sugar. And I discovered that I could go to sleep even with not eating from lunchtime onwards. Very freeing.

 

[bulkbiker]

@Bluetit1802 - I have flaxseed so I’ll try pounding it and using it as you suggest. The cream is a useful idea too which I will squirrel away.

The idea behind my one meal a day is to give my pancreas and liver a rest. Before, I was constantly grazing so my base rate was high and I was spiking from that. I’m really encouraged to see the fasting has made a difference - when I fell to a mini binge I was back down to the 6s fast. Having the bs meter means I can see that sharp hunger pangs AREN’T always dangerously low blood sugar. And I discovered that I could go to sleep even with not eating from lunchtime onwards. Very freeing.

Can I just ask what are you eating? You haven't really said?

 

[brassyblonde900]

Thanks Rachox for the idea of protein bars - though I think I'd feel deprived! But the cream in the scone is a good point. Maybe take my own fresh raspberries instead of jam! Hiitsme - that's useful to know, there is hope then. And I'm planning on very occasional, Raygower. The bread is really helpful in getting my fibre up, so I've been having a piece each day with my single meal (currently doing 1 meal a day) and a walk after, resulting in readings from 5.4-6.5. I just wondered if there was any rule like don't eat carbs on their own.

Why not supplement with Inulin powder
You kill 2birds with one stone
You get fibre plus you are eating a pre biotic that is excellent for your gut flora. Without risking spikes.

 

[Ribbet]

@Ribbet - lots of useful stuff here! Thank you so much. It’s more or less along the lines of my own thinking, too. I’m going for 8 weeks of 1 meal a day low calorie (800-900 cals) which is also an LCHF diet. I find I need 25-30gms fibre a day even when drinking 3.5 litres of water a day. This is really hard to fit into the calories while also getting 60gm protein and a decent mix of veg and nutrients plus under 50 carbs. I’m managing it but it's tough! This is to simulate the sudden calorie restriction of gastric bypass surgery as per the Newcastle diet. After that it will be much more slow loss and maintenance (I have 30 kg to lose.)

My bread is home made with lots of flaxseed and chia and pumpkin seed. I quite like having a small amount of grains or pulses rather than going ketogenic. I will look into switching to the nut flours if I can find them. I already use almond milk with All-Bran and raspberries when needed.

Thanks for all the ideas!

No worries!

Yes I can appreciate the difficulty in achieving some of the dietary requirements, it not doubt requires a bit of creative thinking!

If you're fond of seeds, one tip I’d give that’s a real flavour enhancer on meals is to roast them. It induces a really toasty aromatic flavour from the seed that’s a substantial upgrade on having them just plain. It likely would also be a useful disguiser if you decide to spread psyllium across a meal as well for extra fibre. It’s a really simple thing to do with great flavour returns and one that seems well suited in cohesion with your current dietary requirements.

Some people roast them in the oven - but I pan fry them as it really brings out the toasty aromatics amazingly well! I use a combo of Pumpkin Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Sunflower Seeds & Linseeds (1/4 cup of each) mixed them all together in a dry pan on a low heat, stirring reasonably often so they cook evenly. I use the sesame seeds as a guide for doneness, taking them to a light to medium browned state, then off the heat to cool and dry off their natural moisture, then into a jar and in the fridge for frequent access and use!!! Excellent on just about anything! One tip though, some of the sesame seeds pop a little during cooking, so keep the heat reasonably low. You should be hearing light pops now and then making the cooking process well manageable. If it starts getting too hot the pops get a bit crazy and messy so low heat works best! For the little effort it takes it’s really rewarding.

Sprinkled across a meal 5g to 10g is sufficient. As a suggestion you could use digital scales on first use as a future gauge for volume if you have them.

There’s also no reason why you couldn’t use more of one and less or omit another (eg linseeds are higher in fibre) but I personally like the variety for flavour and texture. Don’t omit the sesame seeds though, they bring it all together!

Here’s the maths on dietary info if you want to mess with volumes. 5g and 10g servings are summarised at the bottom.

Enjoy!

- - - - - - - - -

Pumpkin Seeds [572Cal / 2.2g Carb per 100g] 1/4 cup-37g - 1/4 cup = 212Cal / .9gCarb per 100g

Sesame Seeds [603Cal / 5.7g Carb per 100g] 1/4 cup-35g - 1/4 cup = 211Cal / 2gCarb per 100g

Sunflower Seeds [615Cal / 3.1g Carb per 100g] 1/4 cup-36g - 1/4 cup = 222Cal / 1.2gCarb per 100g

Linseeds [514Cal / 3.8g Carb per 100g] 1/4 cup-37g - 1/4 cup = 191Cal / 1.4gCarb per 100g

1 cup totals 145g - 836Cal / 5.5g Carb 145/10g servings = 14.5 servings

- - - - - - - - -

10 g serving = 58 cal / .4g Carbs

5 g serving = 29 cal / .2g Carbs

ps: psyllium absorbs moisture so it's a good idea to have a glass or water with meals too.

 

[LalaALH]

@bulkbiker - What I’m eating is 8-900 calories low carb high fibre each day as 1 meal (or one meal plus a snack). Aiming for 25 gms fibre.

Breakfast - 2x psyllium husk capsules plus water and a mug of bouillon.
Lunch - chicken breast and 2 rashers of back bacon with 3-400 gms of green veg, always including brussels sprouts as at least half of this. I was having a small slice of home made spelt and seed bread and butter but I wasn’t getting enough fibre so instead I also have at lunch 40g All-bran with 150 ml of almond milk and 50g raspberries. 2 more psyllium tablets with 2 large glasses of water.
Evening - repeat of breakfast plus a light snack if I’m hungry - Edam slice or 6 pecans, or a bowl of Prawns radishes and harrissa paste.

Yesterday all my readings were in the 5s! Partly because I left it the advised 2 hours after eating before testing and had walked off the sugar. Also I tested on waking so didn’t get Dawn phenomenon.

 

[LalaALH]

@brassyblonde900 - thanks for the idea! I’ll look into inulin powder. My main interest in posting is figuring out how to blunt sugar spikes when needed - eg I eat something ‘not allowed’ - this is not for now, but in future when I get to the right weight. So far I have - add fibre to it; cream/fat can slow the spike; take a brisk walk afterwards and use exercise to use up the sugar, especially around 30-70 mins from starting to eat - when the sugar is getting into the bloodstream.

 

[LalaALH]

@Contralto - that recipe looks awesome! I am definitely going to try it once I’m through this ‘fresh Newcastle diet’ stage. Have bookmarked it. You must be a terrific baker!