Saturated fats and type 2

[bulkbiker]

Interesting I hadn't read that particular piece but this bit stood out to me

"Storage of liver fat can only occur when daily calorie intake exceeds expenditure. Sucrose overfeeding for 3 weeks has been shown to cause a 30% increase in liver fat content"

The obvious conclusion is its not calories but sucrose.. unfortunately Prof T is so stuck in his caloric reduction mode that he misses the wood for the trees...

 

[bulkbiker]

He also says in the same piece

"Chronic exposure of β-cells to triacylglycerol or fatty acids either in vitro or in vivo decreases β-cell capacity to respond to an acute increase in glucose levels" Not that they are dead...

 

[Oldvatr]

"Histological studies of the pancreas in type 2 diabetes consistently show an ∼50% reduction in number of β-cells compared with normal subjects (66). β-Cell loss appears to increase as duration of diabetes increases (67). The process is likely to be regulated by apoptosis, a mechanism known to be increased by chronic exposure to increased fatty acid metabolites (68). Ceramides, which are synthesized directly from fatty acids, are likely mediators of the lipid effects on apoptosis "Prof Taylor. I have already given you the reference for this but obviously you didn't bother reading it before making rash and inaccurate statements about it.

Apoptosis:
Apoptosis: A form of cell death in which a programmed sequence of events leads to the elimination of cells without releasing harmful substances into the surrounding area. Apoptosis plays a crucial role in developing and maintaining the health of the body by eliminating old cells, unnecessary cells, and unhealthy cells.

In other words it is the natural rhythm of life and is not cell death by lipids.

Histological:
The study of cells in microscopy using thin slices of tissue. Assumes biopsy or mortem has previously occurred, Not necessarily in vivo during a study. So again, did Taylor do this procedure during his study to prove beta cell death?

It would be better to use post mortem results from the population in general, but this does not seem to be published in the journals. So again, how is Taylor justifying his stance that fats kill beta cells in T2D. I am happy that Taylor seems to demonstrate that recovery and reduction of IR is possible. I am not happy with this assertion that beta cell death is caused by fatty liver and that his magic diet reverses cell death.

 

[Oldvatr]

Interesting I hadn't read that particular piece but this bit stood out to me

"Storage of liver fat can only occur when daily calorie intake exceeds expenditure. Sucrose overfeeding for 3 weeks has been shown to cause a 30% increase in liver fat content"

The obvious conclusion is its not calories but sucrose.. unfortunately Prof T is so stuck in his caloric reduction mode that he misses the wood for the trees...

Also missed the natural process of glucose storage in the liver which occurs when bgl levels are higher than needed for immediate energy, i.e. the natural process by which our bodies protect themselves from possible future starvation. So the liver and adipose tissue stores both excess lipids and excess carb, so it is not surprising a high carb intake leads to liver size increasing. Long Live the Liver Dump. There are two pathways to fat storage.

 

[Mbaker]

Around 1912 there were the first reports of symptomatic heart disease. Sugar was more available and vegetable fats / oils was invented. Cut it anyway you want, human populations throughout the world were better off before these "refined" items not for 1 week, 50 years but millions of years. Man and woman kind had issues with communicable diseases such as cholera, tythoid and the like - not food issues. With some

Fats around the liver/pancreas do inhibit insulin production. But it is debatable whether it kills pancreas....

Unfortunate that Dr Roy Taylor studies shy away from measuring ketones or consider absolute water fasting as comparison to a 3 month long 800 calorie diet. I wonder why the fixation with 800 calories...

It was already observed in 1966 that in extended 14 day fast, "the glucose tolerance test approached normal".
https://pmj.bmj.com/content/postgradmedj/44/507/58.full.pdf

And fasting up to 200+ days are not unheard of...
https://www.sciencedirect.com/sdfe/pdf/download/eid/1-s2.0-S0140673666929254/first-page-pdf

View attachment 29357

Nice work.

 

[Mbaker]

Watched an interesting documentary on Netflix "salt fat acid heat". If you have a subscription have a look at the "Fat" part of the series, focuses a lot on Tuscany; I wonder how Ancel Keys missed the amount of saturated fat (and meat) used in this region. I feel a yeah but moment.

 

[lindisfel]

Per Seventh Dayers, the Bible contradicts itself right left and centre, it is the ultimate cherry picking source.

Don't blame the Bible, blame the cult groups that rip texts out of context for sectarian reasons.
I am guessing, your not an Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic scholar and neither am I.
D.

 

[lindisfel]

If we every get another Ice age, which perhaps is unlikely since we are messing up the planets atmosphere, we would see how veganism would fair.
When they got hungry they would be the first at the reindeer steak burger joint.
Veganism was not the survival diet for mankind.

 

[derry60]

Greger is a vegan prophet (and I use that description advisedly). He has form for misrepresenting things and some of the statements he makes in that article and neither proven nor likely to ever be proven.
Myth number one
"Diets rich in saturated fats not only cause obesity and insulin resistance" He is claiming that they cause which is completely unproven in any study ever... causation is very rare association is as far as most will go.

He then gets a bit more correct
"may also cause beta cell death and may thus contribute to the progressive beta cell loss we see in type 2 diabetes."
The may is because he cannot prove what he is saying...

"You can kill pancreatic cells right in a petri dish." I'm sure you can but to say that is what happens in the body is a completely false analogy and again unprovable as we cannot even measure beta cell life at the moment in the living.

"The fats found predominantly in meat and dairy—chicken and cheese are the two main sources in the American diet—are considered nearly “universally toxic.” "
So foods that we have eaten for millennia are "universally toxic" so that's why we have survived so long....?

Do I need to say more.. the whole piece is written to further the vegan agenda.

Yes and they are certainly pushing the Vegan thing now. It's becoming fashionable. There was a report in the news that Vegans wanted to kill the staff who sell Turkeys, as they think that it's cruel. Mad people

 

[bulkbiker]

Yes and they are certainly pushing the Vegan thing now. It's becoming fashionable. There was a report in the news that Vegans wanted to kill the staff who sell Turkeys, as they think that it's cruel. Mad people

I guess we should say that "some" vegans but not all think that way..

 

[lindisfel]

This is getting out of hand. It crept into Dr. Who the other week when they wouldn't kill the mutant oversized spiders.
At our local nature reserve they apparently cannot kill the rat plague at the bird feeders and have to get their ecologist permission.

If rats came to my feeders I would borrow my neighbours .22 air rifle with a telescopic sight and blast them. He gave me six pellets last time and I gave him five back cos I got it in one.
D.

 

[Bluetit1802]

If rats came to my feeders I would borrow my neighbours .22 air rifle with a telescopic sight and blast them. He gave me six pellets last time and I gave him five back cos I got it in one.

We had a lone rat a few years ago, hoovering up the spilled bird food. He was a loner. Loners are those that for some reason have been turfed out of the social group. They have no mates or friends. We enjoyed watching him for months. He was fascinating. No way could I ever have harmed him. He had it tough enough as it was. He disappeared eventually.

 

[Guzzler]

Don't blame the Bible, blame the cult groups that rip texts out of context for sectarian reasons.
I am guessing, your not an Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic scholar and neither am I.
D.

I'm blaming the cherry pickers. You can keep guessing what I am all day long.

 

[Tannith]

He also says in the same piece

"Chronic exposure of β-cells to triacylglycerol or fatty acids either in vitro or in vivo decreases β-cell capacity to respond to an acute increase in glucose levels" Not that they are dead...

I would say that the de differentiation that has passed the point of no return after 10 years means that they are as good as dead. Their owner is probably going to have to be on insulin.
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/39/11/2080
"Critically, the β-cell dedifferentiation produced by long-term excess nutrient supply is reversible. Weight loss in humans permits restoration of first-phase insulin secretion associated with the return to normal of the elevated intrapancreatic triglyceride content. However, in type 2 diabetes of duration greater than 10 years, the cellular changes appear to pass a point of no return. "

 

[bulkbiker]

I would say that the de differentiation that has passed the point of no return after 10 years means that they are as good as dead. Their owner is probably going to have to be on insulin.
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/39/11/2080
"Critically, the β-cell dedifferentiation produced by long-term excess nutrient supply is reversible. Weight loss in humans permits restoration of first-phase insulin secretion associated with the return to normal of the elevated intrapancreatic triglyceride content. However, in type 2 diabetes of duration greater than 10 years, the cellular changes appear to pass a point of no return. "

Possibly but that is quite different from the statement you made at the start of this discussion. Again it cannot be "proven".

 

[Guzzler]

Lots of 'probably' and 'suggest' and 'may' tells me that researchers either do not want to commit themselves or they are unable to because they do not have definitive data.
And I agree that saying that it is a matter of genetics is a bit of a cop out when it comes to peoples of differing culture or race, imo it has more to do with exposure.

 

[HSSS]

I’m sure there’s plenty out there thinking us low carbers are every bit as weird if not more so than some consider the vegans to be.

 

[Tannith]

The reason I keep banging on about Newcastle is that we know that if you get the fat off the pancreas soon enough, while the beta cells are just moribund and have not yet "differentiated" permanently, the beta cells can be restored to their original function again. But there is only a limited window of opportunity.This varies between people (possibly depending on how fat they are, and how sensitive their beta cells are to fat but certainly on how long they have had T2). After that, losing the pancreatic fat won't help. I hope to give people on here the heads up before they reach the point where their beta cells could no longer recover whatever they do.
https://www.endocrineweb.com/profes...-beta-cells-getting-closer-reversing-diabetes
Even though many questions remain, Dr. Taylor expressed certainty of that the timing is right for endocrinologists and primary care practitioners to take a more aggressive approach with regard to weight managed in their patients—more urgently in those who are newly diagnosed with type 2—to emphasize the urgency to lose the excess weight immediately.
Despite the initial effect of diet and oral therapy to lower glucose, observational studies have shown that disease progression is associated with inexorably declining β-cell function and progression to insulin commencement, with relatively minor changes in underlying insulin resistance.

 

[Guzzler]

The reason I keep banging on about Newcastle is that we know that if you get the fat off the pancreas soon enough, while the beta cells are just moribund and have not yet "differentiated" permanently, the beta cells can be restored to their original function again. But there is only a limited window of opportunity.This varies between people (possibly depending on how fat they are, and how sensitive their beta cells are to fat but certainly on how long they have had T2). After that, losing the pancreatic fat won't help. I hope to give people on here the heads up before they reach the point where their beta cells could no longer recover whatever they do.
https://www.endocrineweb.com/profes...-beta-cells-getting-closer-reversing-diabetes
Even though many questions remain, Dr. Taylor expressed certainty of that the timing is right for endocrinologists and primary care practitioners to take a more aggressive approach with regard to weight managed in their patients—more urgently in those who are newly diagnosed with type 2—to emphasize the urgency to lose the excess weight immediately.

That is sometimes dependant on exactly when you are diagnosed and does not address the question of those for whom weight gain was not a symptom and may have been insulin resistant for decades.
By this premise I should be quite able to put back on all the weight I lost quite safely, no? Because I was carrying no extra weight on diagnosis and this was by HCPs/NICE etc guidelines.

What makes me slightly sceptical about ND is that it is fundamentally a restricted calorie diet and these diets have been around for for donkeys, the only difference is that ND is led by doctors but the basic tenet is the same as WW or SW. It was hailed as a 'breakthrough' but I think it may die a slow death just as those that have gone before it.

 

[bulkbiker]

The reason I keep banging on about Newcastle is that we know that if you get the fat off the pancreas soon enough, while the beta cells are just moribund and have not yet "differentiated" permanently, the beta cells can be restored to their original function again. But there is only a limited window of opportunity.This varies between people (possibly depending on how fat they are, and how sensitive their beta cells are to fat but certainly on how long they have had T2). After that, losing the pancreatic fat won't help. I hope to give people on here the heads up before they reach the point where their beta cells could no longer recover whatever they do.
https://www.endocrineweb.com/profes...-beta-cells-getting-closer-reversing-diabetes
Even though many questions remain, Dr. Taylor expressed certainty of that the timing is right for endocrinologists and primary care practitioners to take a more aggressive approach with regard to weight managed in their patients—more urgently in those who are newly diagnosed with type 2—to emphasize the urgency to lose the excess weight immediately.
Despite the initial effect of diet and oral therapy to lower glucose, observational studies have shown that disease progression is associated with inexorably declining β-cell function and progression to insulin commencement, with relatively minor changes in underlying insulin resistance.

That's why keto is I believe more effective as the Virta trials have shown... they can take longterm Type 2's and get them off most of their meds(even long term insulin users) with a ketogenic diet. No pre-selection of trial subjects as happened in the DiRECT study