Type 2 Diabetes: NHS to offer 800 cal diet

[Fleegle]

I think it is great the ND is getting some broader attention not least because it will raise awareness for those who it might work for - give insight from those where it doesn't and start to give scale data for processing.
It has also generated a load of debates on air - I have tuned in to several radio programmes talking of it. Lots of myths being debunked like the old one about metabolism. A very interesting Dr said that indeed your metabolic rate slows down in the first few weeks after your body enters protection mode - but after that different hormones start to work which start to get rid of that deep hard to lose fat.

Most importantly of all this is all raising awareness - some of it is scare mongering but if I had of known 5 years ago what I know now - I reckon I could have made the changes to avoid this (maybe, if avoidable).

 

[Fleegle]

I've tried Michael Mosleys 8 week blood sugar diet, along with kettlebells, I did it for 7 weeks, logged every morsel of food on fitness pal, and lost...wait for it...nothing!!!

WOW - that is interesting data. I had already lost a ton of weight when I did ND and thought I would not lose much more. I lost a further 3lbs on average every week including the last of the 8 weeks. Just keeps drawing a line under the fact that we are all different, no one thing is right or wrong and what works for you I guess.

 

[Fleegle]

Hi @NicoleC1971

I am VERY interested in this statement of yours.


I knew that some bariatric surgery subjects ‘reverse’, but hadn’t come across any info on it being universal.
Do you have any links for this? I would love to read more.

I agree - I am not sure it is everyone - but it is written up on the Newcastle University web site I am sure. It was first led to PROF Ts work.

 

[Guzzler]

Guzzler, I'm not a massive fan of the ND, but I can't let the assertion that it wasn't an important breakthrough stand without comment. I think one of the greatest impacts of the ND was it's challenge to the belief that T2 diabetes was chronic, progressive, irreversible and all that jazz.

When it became clear that the process of "reversing" (and let's not get into a squabble about what reversal/remission is, please) was repeatable in a material number of candidates, it began to help prize some very closed minds towards opening.

That for me is a fundamental breakthrough.

I'm not saying it wasn't an important breakthrough. I said that inroads have been made into understanding the mechanisms which is an integral part of the research. How many times have we heard Taylor and Lean say 'Diabetes gone' or some such comment? ND results were held back until a 'Grand Reveal' was done and when the reveal came was it worthy of the hype? No one could argue that ND is a brand new concept, what it has achieved is a greater understanding (not to be sneered at) but it is still a restricted calorie, short term diet.

To the uninitiated the term 'Diabetes gone' equates to cure. ND is not a cure, pure and simple, it is at best a management tool just the same as LCHF/Keto, drug treatments, insulin etc.

 

[Fleegle]

I'm not saying it wasn't an important breakthrough. I said that inroads have been made into understanding the mechanisms which is an integral part of the research. How many times have we heard Taylor and Lean say 'Diabetes gone' or some such comment? ND results were held back until a 'Grand Reveal' was done and when the reveal came was it worthy of the hype? No one could argue that ND is a brand new concept, what it has achieved is a greater understanding (not to be sneered at) but it is still a restricted calorie, short term diet.

To the uninitiated the term 'Diabetes gone' equates to cure. ND is not a cure, pure and simple, it is at best a management tool just the same as LCHF/Keto, drug treatments, insulin etc.

Umm. I am not so sure. Cure, well probably not, difficult to know yet but perhaps a start. But it isn't maintenance is it? I am not intending to eat 800 calories everyday of my life - where as if I were KETO I would face into less than 20 carbs a day for the most part.

No I think what the ND showed if nothing else was here is a huge shock to your system which may be enough to free BETA cells from fat stored in the Pancreas. That is new news, big news (may also not be true, might be nothing to do with 800 calories and may not last long we just dont know) and worthy of a huge amount of attention IMHO. I would have gone further and knighted him but I suspect that is just as a result of the life changing impact it had on me personally.

Just the same as the work on fast mimicking diet which may yield great results and medium length fasting causing autography. There isn't just one thing.

BTW - I dont think Low Carb gets the attention it deserves either but that shouldn't take the shine of some truly remarkable work by Prof T in our life time.

 

[Guzzler]

Umm. I am not so sure. Cure, well probably not, difficult to know yet but perhaps a start. But it isn't maintenance is it? I am not intending to eat 800 calories everyday of my life - where as if I were KETO I would face into less than 20 carbs a day for the most part.

No I think what the ND showed if nothing else was here is a huge shock to your system which may be enough to free BETA cells from fat stored in the Pancreas. That is new news, big news (may also not be true, might be nothing to do with 800 calories and may not last long we just dont know) and worthy of a huge amount of attention IMHO. I would have gone further and knighted him but I suspect that is just as a result of the life changing impact it had on me personally.

Just the same as the work on fast mimicking diet which may yield great results and medium length fasting causing autography. There isn't just one thing.

BTW - I dont think Low Carb gets the attention it deserves either but that shouldn't take the shine of some truly remarkable work by Prof T in our life time.

While I agree that the Profs. work has been absolutely invaluable to widening our understanding of obesity and the mechanism of reversal (a term I am coming to really dislike along with remission) of excessive body weight and T2 I would prefer that the terminology be couched so that clarity reigns.

 

[DCUKMod]

I'm not saying it wasn't an important breakthrough. I said that inroads have been made into understanding the mechanisms which is an integral part of the research. How many times have we heard Taylor and Lean say 'Diabetes gone' or some such comment? ND results were held back until a 'Grand Reveal' was done and when the reveal came was it worthy of the hype? No one could argue that ND is a brand new concept, what it has achieved is a greater understanding (not to be sneered at) but it is still a restricted calorie, short term diet.

To the uninitiated the term 'Diabetes gone' equates to cure. ND is not a cure, pure and simple, it is at best a management tool just the same as LCHF/Keto, drug treatments, insulin etc.

All research will be kept under wraps, then released on either a given date, or published in a planned way in some journal or the other. If research findings are dribbled out over time, they can lose their impact, but alos interested parties at some distance to it get bored and disengaged, often deciding it's so slow coming to fruition that there's "nothing to see here. Move along."

Coincidentally, I have just spent the last 3 days communing with academic researchers from all over the world, discussing, for a goodly chuck of the time, how research is published/revealed/released and the issues and challenges of engaging the public in an research process. (Most of the researchers were academic and only a minority anything to do with healthcare.)

Let's not forget, a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. I don't think Professor Taylor or anyone else for that matter has claimed they know the whole answer yet.

 

[Guzzler]

All research will be kept under wraps, then released on either a given date, or published in a planned way in some journal or the other. If research findings are dribbled out over time, they can lose their impact, but alos interested parties at some distance to it get bored and disengaged, often deciding it's so slow coming to fruition that there's "nothing to see here. Move along."

Coincidentally, I have just spent the last 3 days communing with academic researchers from all over the world, discussing, for a goodly chuck of the time, how research is published/revealed/released and the issues and challenges of engaging the public in an research process. (Most of the researchers were academic and only a minority anything to do with healthcare.)

Let's not forget, a journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. I don't think Professor Taylor or anyone else for that matter has claimed they know the whole answer yet.

I think that the media had a lot to do with the hype esp wrt dumbing down the results so far as to be twisting the truth, however, the term 'Diabetes gone' sticks in my craw. As I said in my last comment the work is invaluable both in terms of the people who have seen success on ND and in terms of the knowledge gained by the professionals but to intimate that a restricted calorie diet is the be all and end all of T2 Diabetes is disingenuous imo it perpetuates the stereotypical T2 we see in the very media that hails ND as a light bulb answer.

 

[Oldvatr]

I'm not saying it wasn't an important breakthrough. I said that inroads have been made into understanding the mechanisms which is an integral part of the research. How many times have we heard Taylor and Lean say 'Diabetes gone' or some such comment? ND results were held back until a 'Grand Reveal' was done and when the reveal came was it worthy of the hype? No one could argue that ND is a brand new concept, what it has achieved is a greater understanding (not to be sneered at) but it is still a restricted calorie, short term diet.

To the uninitiated the term 'Diabetes gone' equates to cure. ND is not a cure, pure and simple, it is at best a management tool just the same as LCHF/Keto, drug treatments, insulin etc.

ND as a diet is not a new concept since there are many others based around the 800cals/day regime using meal replacement shakes. What was new and the real nugget in the ND study was adapting the MRI scanner to give measurement of the extent of fatty liver, and using this to demonstrate scientifically that the diet reduced the fatty liver around the pancreas AND that this fat reduction also was directly linked to improvement in Insulin Response. It is the proving of this linkage that ND should be rewarded for since it will lead to improved understanding of T2D and better treatments. It will also incidentally save many of us from bariatric surgery since it does closely mimic that procedure and will lead to cheaper and less invasive treatments
instead.

I regard ND as being the Boot Camp of the diabetes world, i.e. a short sharp shock to reset the pancreas, The fact that it can be reset shows that in T2D our beta cells fail not because they are killed off aka T1D but go dormant - thus giving hope for an eventual cure for T2D.

 

[Guzzler]

ND as a diet is not a new concept since there are many others based around the 800cals/day regime using meal replacement shakes. What was new and the real nugget in the ND study was adapting the MRI scanner to give measurement of the extent of fatty liver, and using this to demonstrate scientifically that the diet reduced the fatty liver around the pancreas AND that this fat reduction also was directly linked to improvement in Insulin Response. It is the proving of this linkage that ND should be rewarded for since it will lead to improved understanding of T2D and better treatments. It will also incidentally save many of us from bariatric surgery since it does closely mimic that procedure and will lead to cheaper and less invasive treatments
instead.

I regard ND as being the Boot Camp of the diabetes world, i.e. a short sharp shock to reset the pancreas, The fact that it can be reset shows that in T2D our beta cells fail not because they are killed off aka T1D but go dormant - thus giving hope for an eventual cure for T2D.

Isn't that what I said?

Edited typo.

 

[Oldvatr]

Isn't that what I said?

Edited typo.

Same page, but slightly different emphasis.

 

[Resurgam]

Contains gelatin, so not suitable for vegans then.

I am not sure that the gelatin set ones have made it across the decades - the tests were for the making and storing of ingredients, at a time when the diet was only available under the direct supervision of the doctors - I think it was a Dr Howard and - maybe Dr Baird? I don't think the diet was 'on the market' until five or more years later.
When I was working with them I had a 24 inch waist and wore skirts about the size of a handbag, and was very fit, so they might have contributed to that.....

 

[ickihun]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46363869

Its a trial only

I'm not part of any trials but I'm on it, via diabesity clinic.

 

[Oldvatr]

I'm not part of any trials but I'm on it, via diabesity clinic.

Please report back here on the level of support and follow up you receive since this seems to be a point for concern in how it is going to be implemented. I presume you are talking ND rather than this new rollout by NHS, Is this instead of the bariatric surgery you had been considering?

 

[ickihun]

Please report back here on the level of support and follow up you receive since this seems to be a point for concern in how it is going to be implemented. I presume you are talking ND rather than this new rollout by NHS, Is this instead of the bariatric surgery you had been considering?

I will continue tomorrow as settled for sleep now but no. Mine is additional to surgery. I've been told February time for my op so loads of time to lose weight but still only averaging 0.5lb a week loss. Off and on. Water retention is a huge influence.
Drinking loads of flavoured water and watery veg with sugary 200cal milkshakes. Hunger is subdued by munching raw carrots. Having to take multivitamins with minerals, including Iron supplements.
Ps. Because I'm on insulin I see unit or my gp practice every week.

 

[dawnmc]

WOW - that is interesting data. I had already lost a ton of weight when I did ND and thought I would not lose much more. I lost a further 3lbs on average every week including the last of the 8 weeks. Just keeps drawing a line under the fact that we are all different, no one thing is right or wrong and what works for you I guess.

but it didn't work for me though.

 

[ickihun]

Like bariatric surgery the 800cals once stopped or not restricting calorie intake then weight is most likely readded. Increased IR too.
It is a tool and a tool to make a start on proving your body can lose weight and reduce its own IR level.

Many feel the 800cal diet is only necessary due to reduced metabolic rate from previous calorie restricted diets. So in future may be 600cals.

My 800cals is soon to be increased on Friday. I'll be interested to see how my body reacts. I'm in unfamiliar ground on increased cals to 1000 for a period as in 1986 I stopped milkshakes onto regular food and readded 8st after a further 15yrs of low fat and excessive exercise routines, off and on.
I've always averaged 0.5-1.0 lb loss from any diet. Even appetite suppressants which are now band due to heart problems. The only diet which eventually achieved more loss, quicker (for me); was metformin on low carb+ low fat and r-ala supplements.
Cheese, nuts and cream don't help me loss weight.