Type 1 Explain difference in DKA, pump and MDI

EllieM

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So, I understand that folk on insulin pumps can get DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis) very quickly if their pump disconnects (hours rather than days?). I'm on MDI (nightly lantus plus humalog before meals). If I forgot my nightly lantus would I be at risk by morning? Presumably by then I'd have had several hours of zero insulin in my system....

There've been a few occasions where I've thought "Did I have my lantus?" (it's fatal to read in bed before doing night time insulin) and I usually err on the side of not doing an extra injection...

Or is there so much latency in basal insulin that you'd have to go an additional 24 hours before it is completely out of your system???
 
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Knikki

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Lantus should last in your system anywhere between 15-24 hours so missing a 'last thing at night injection', I very much doubt would lead to DKA unless you were running very high blood sugars all night

Yes there is fair amount of latency in long lasting insulins especially for the MDI users.

Problem with the pump, no expert, never used one, is that they have an almost continuous drip into them, instead a larger does done by the MDI which might be the reason why they may end up in DKA quicker.

I'm NO expert in these things but will give @kitedoc a tag as he seems to know a fair bit about these things.
 
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Jaylee

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Hi,

Interesting question.. I don't pump.
But, if I'm a couple of hours late with my basal? (Lantus. Normaly taken @11pm.) for instance, after 12 or 13 hours fasting prior to a gig which treks on a little late. Can be held in a "holding pattern" due to the tailing off & stay in comfortable BG parameters of 4.5/5.5Mmol? But that's just me...

Oddly, I did forget to take my Lantus the other night ("school night," I had a work day ensuing.) woke up 6 hours later in my mid teens, blood wise...(but I had bolused 9? Hours prior for an evening meal..) it's not often I forget, but it can happen. In these cases after ascertaining if I had? I normally take 3/4s the amount of basal. But it canbe a slow recovery back to normal BGs with a little correction dose in addition...

Historically? The only time I officially suffered severe DKA was on diagnosis as an 8'year old..

Edited to add, tag in @Juicyj & @himtoo for a perspective.
 

Nicola M

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You are at a much greater risk of DKA on an insulin pump purely due to the fact that you are essentially being drip fed insulin every hour. The rule of thumb for insulin pumps is to try not to stay disconnected for more than an hour. Insulin stays in the body for around 4 hours but because it's at such minuscule amount being given after a couple hours your sugars will more than likely begin to rise. I was once told that within around 5-6 hours of being without insulin on a pump you could start going into DKA. Most people will tend to catch it before it gets too serious as with a rise in sugars comes certain symptoms, the majority if not all pump systems will also alarm if there's a problem. Yes you're more at risk on an insulin pump but if you're checking your glucose regularly it shouldn't really happen.
 

EllieM

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You are at a much greater risk of DKA on an insulin pump purely due to the fact that you are essentially being drip fed insulin every hour. The rule of thumb for insulin pumps is to try not to stay disconnected for more than an hour. Insulin stays in the body for around 4 hours but because it's at such minuscule amount being given after a couple hours your sugars will more than likely begin to rise. I was once told that within around 5-6 hours of being without insulin on a pump you could start going into DKA. Most people will tend to catch it before it gets too serious as with a rise in sugars comes certain symptoms, the majority if not all pump systems will also alarm if there's a problem. Yes you're more at risk on an insulin pump but if you're checking your glucose regularly it shouldn't really happen.

Thanks, that's really interesting. I've never had a DKA (got diagnosed ultra early by a T1 mum) so not sure what the symptoms would be other than usual ones of high blood sugar. If your pump got disconnected soon after bed time could you be in trouble by the morning then? I'm assuming that low level DKA can be self treated just by reconnecting the pump?
 

tim2000s

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Thanks, that's really interesting. I've never had a DKA (got diagnosed ultra early by a T1 mum) so not sure what the symptoms would be other than usual ones of high blood sugar. If your pump got disconnected soon after bed time could you be in trouble by the morning then? I'm assuming that low level DKA can be self treated just by reconnecting the pump?
Basically, yes you could, but DKA as a result of a pump issue isn't THAT common. The longest I've gone without pump insulin was about 7 hours. I went to bed at 5 and woke up at 17. The difficulty is that we are all different, so you may end up in DKA, but you also may not ( I wasn't) but you will have a high glucose level.

There isn't really any such thing as "low level DKA". DKA is the point at which your blood chemistry has changed to become too acidic and by the time you've reached that stage, you need urgent medical assistance. High glucose levels with limited ketones, on the other hand, are manageable at home with insulin. They do require regular checks though.
 

kitedoc

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Hi @EllieM and thank you @Knikki for the tag! As a T1D, not as professional advice or opinion:
Important take-home message is (according to my DNE who was very insistent I understood)
With injecting a long acting insulin like Lantus the depot or reservoir of insulin is under your skin.
In an insulin pump, the depot or reservoir of insulin is in the pump
.
The drug company will quote from their studies how soon say, Lantus or other long acting insulin, appears in the blood stream (of a human), whether and when it reaches a peak of effect (or not) and for how long the insulin stays active in the body.
Also some pharmaceutical reports by the company will show that the higher the dose of say, Lantus, the longer it has an effect in the body.
You can google this under 'pictures and insulin profiles' and drug company monographs and compare Lantus's profile to that of one of the short-acting insulins used in an insulin pump. These results are going to be averages of sorts, so for some people Lantus might last 30 hours, in others longer or shorter per same dose
So you forget to take your 10 pm evening dose of Lantus and let us assume that your last dose was about the same time, 24 hours ago. Drug company profiles for Lantus suggest (but not prove) that after the time of the missed dose there will be a low trickle of 'left-over' insulin activity over ? 4 ? 6 ? longer hours
Whether that activity is enough to stop ketones forming depends on many things such as when and what one last ate, the dose of Lantus 24 hours ago, any short-acting insulin taken the evening of the missed dose of Lantus etc.
So by 6 am the next morning after the missed dose of Lantus some insulin may still be present in a truly insulin-dependent person. But not guaranteed.
On the other hand if my insulin pump stops delivering insulin altogether at 10 pm, it has the remnants of short acting insulin bolus for the evening meal, say at 6 pm. There may be only 2 and a bit hours worth of dwindling insulin effect from the bolus dose by 10 pm, as the insulin is short-acting in type. Add to that a small amount of basal insulin say approx. 5.7 units spread over hours 6 pm to 10 pm - so the insulin effect is likely to last to maybe 4 am. but that last gasp of insulin is, in my case, from 0.525 units of short-acting insulin delivered at 9.30 pm. Again the variables are as for missed Lantus dose but the last dose of short-acting insulin is quite small.
So which person is in more trouble? I would say I am as there is nothing there under the skin to be absorbed some hours before 6 am and if I have any DP effect that could exaggerate things.
The other variables which might apply are things that could change insulin resistance such as current illness, stress etc, and exercise in the past 24 hours approx.
I hope that helps explain things.
With insulin pumps my experience is that the most troublesome pump delivery troubles are that the cannula which is situated under the skin can become partially obstructed by becoming bent or kinked but not enough to trigger an alarm, or other times the insulin may leak from the cannula tip back up under the adhesive patch holding the needle port in place. Yes, accidental pulling out of cannulas or unsticking of needle ports can occur too. Pumps can fail but that is much less common.
So BSLs rise pretty quickly with the above most troublesome problems and provide the dilemma of whether to change the needle port/cannula or not. I have certainly started to develop ketones within 4 hours of the assumed bent cannula problem having tried larger than usual bolus pushes to see whether the issue might be something else.
Of course our wonderfully generous health systems could oblige by giving us pumpers each a special ultrasound device (with foolproof instructions in my case) to detect kinks and bends in the cannula and perhaps leaking cannulas, and special alert systems for detachment of cannulas!!! In a perfect world anything is possible.

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