My doctor was angry with me...

torchman2

Well-Known Member
Messages
75
This is not too far from what has generally been suggested here...which is adequate carbs reduction, eat to your meter. Not complete carbs elimination...but there is always those who looks for faster weightloss etc that is where the discussion leads to keto, if and extended fasting.

And the Randle Cycle don't appear to be all about glucose metabolism...so it is always cycling between glucose or fatty acids...is it not?

Fair enough, but remember the above is starting point. I can eat 250/300/350 carbs (basically glucose from tubers and fructose from fruit) without having BG spikes, if I eat in the right way. The higher amount if I Exercise. If I eat the wrong way, I can't handle 150.

And the Randle Cycle don't appear to be all about glucose metabolism...so it is always cycling between glucose or fatty acids...is it not?
Agreed, it's a sliding scale throughout the day. Particularly at night or rest, it moves towards Fatty Acids. Any moderate activity should slide it more towards glucose. But if you eat 150 grams of fat, it will stay on the Free Fatty Acid metabolism for more of day.
 

tomtom 2

Well-Known Member
Messages
64
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Nice, so you mean you can now eat any carbs, or only resistant starch?
I can now eat any carbs as long as they are not greater than about 60 grams.
I do tend to stay away from refined carbs although I do stray sometimes but as long as I dont take an excessive amount it wont raise my BG too much.
Made a mistake a few months ago eating Irwins Irish Batch bread and my BG went up to 10.5 after 2 hours, I later calculated the starch I had eaten it was around 78 grams.
I've had takeaway chinese, indian meals and they have not taken me any higher than 7's.
Funny you mentioned about the unripe banana spiking you I have one every morning semi green and I'm fine with that.
The more unripe the banana the higher the RS.

Tom
 

HSSS

Expert
Messages
7,465
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Thanks for the comments. I only put the sciencey bits and links to studies to show I'm not just making it up. "magnesium helps T2 diabetes" really needs links to studies to show this.

Background--> I did low carb from around 2011-2013. Then Keto, then had hypothyroidism diagnosed around end of 2013. Started eating too many carbs, got fatter. No one told me I had to reteach my body to use carbs! Can't remember exact dates.

Main thing LCHF did for me was to get to 10% ish body fat, and have abs. I worked out a lot, did cardio etc. I felt good for about a year, then it tapered off but there are many related things: psychological effect of feeling "ripped", eating meals at the same time and recording calories etc. There was consistency to my eating, sleeping, training. So it can't all be attributed to just "LOW CARBS".

But I was also skinny considering how strong I was, now I see why.. the body was breaking down muscle tissue to make glucose. After a while, hair loss/thinning, bad sleep, freezing hands, as described above. I would wake up lots per night, need to pee a lot, etc.

At the time, I wanted to keep blood sugar low, so I had a BG meter. At one stage I had a neck issue that caused nerve pinching and numb fingers, and before this was diagnosed someone said it may be diabetes, so I used the meter to check that (this is 5/6 years ago). It wasn't diabetes, it was nerve issues, possibly from low Thyroid.

I pulled the meter out about a month ago (maybe even 5-6 weeks, guess it was first week of Nov), after being ill, and I was regularly hitting 10-12 FBG (12 FBG ***!!!), and 10 after eating. This went on for a few weeks. I was pretty shocked. For 2 weeks I don't think FBG was below 8. According to interwebs, I HAD DIABETES. Well, thankfully I had read enough to know I could do something about it. Was quite an interesting time, I was initially super freaked. I think I'd basically been eating too few meals per day, and eating close to 1000 calorie meals, with too much fat, and too much bread (sandwiches) and pasta. Plus being sick.

Just from eating regular, small meals, and taking magnesium and some B vitamins, (and few other things listed above, like aspiring and Vit K.. but mainly Mag and B complex) it's now within normal range again. I also upped my Thyroid hormone (t3). I'm testing BG 5+ times a day, there are little strips all over my house. I could see over the course of 2 weeks, I watched the FBG drop from 10, to 8s, to 7s, to 6s, to 5s.

So I can see what affects me: I can handle root vegetables, roasted or boiled, and most fruits. Bananas I can't, they're not ripe in UK and so have too much starch. I can't handle pasta or bread or pizza, it spikes post meal BG and the next day's FBG. I can do 50-60grams of carbs per meal (4 meals a day), and stay within 7-7.5 postprandial, and quickly drops to 5.5.

I ate a snack earlier after work today of 150-200grams of 5% Fage greek yogurt, and 30-40 grams of bonne mamon strawberry jam (2 tablespoons), so around 25-30grams of sugars... and tested 30 mins later... was 5.6 :)

The things I listed above are Thyroid, magnesium, salt, calcium, Vit D, potassium, all the B vitamins (biotin, niacinamide, P5P, Thiamine etc), succinic acid, all held glucose clearance. Magnesium is the best for me, just having some at night before bed improves FBG.

Thanks for your detailed answer.


So you were low carb but not diabetic and then Hypothyroid. Which causes weight gain, hair loss, poor sleep and circulation issues. But you decided it was low carb not hypothyroidism causing this? And it also caused the leanness, not your rigorous eating regime and serious exercise?

A month ago your blood sugars showed high levels. Were you medically diagnosed or was it on the basis of your fingerprick tests? You were ill at the time. This is a normal reaction to illness I understand. Whilst eating high carb meals ? You simultaneously ate smaller (lower carb?) meals, changed your thyroid meds, overcame your illness and took supplements. A positive result was bgl became normal. How can you attribute which action had which part in the results? You seem to have found which carbs spike your bgl and which you believe don’t. I am assuming your testing was a various intervals after eating to cover delayed spikes?

Your snack of sugary jam with fatty yogurt gave a resonable result 30mins later. What about 90mins or 2 hrs or even 3hrs? Fat with carbs slows their absorption. Did you miss the spike or not have one?

I have a number of issues with your experience that leave huge gaps in your assertions as above. That said I will still be reading the links you gave as every weapon in an arsenal to help above and beyond low carb is worth considering. But I won’t be giving it up just yet.
 
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HSSS

Expert
Messages
7,465
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
My argument is not that dietary glucose reverses hyperglycaemia. So maybe I explained myself badly.

This is my argument:

- diabetes is the inability to clear/process glucose.
- if you "have diabetes", it's not forever, and you can still improve glucose clearance.
- many factors affect glucose clearance, not just carb intake and insulin: there are many insulin-like co-factors, such as sodium, magnesium, potassium, calcium. Insulin industry wants people to focus on insulin, and spend their billions of dollars on that.
- removing glucose does not cure diabetes, it simply hides and manages the problem. If you go Keto, you (probably) make insulin resistance worse. Eat a big carb meal and see what happens to your BG!
- if you don't take in glucose, of course you won't get glucose spikes. Your body produces it, however, and that is a stressful response. Better to take in small, manageable, consistent amounts of carbs and teach your body to process them
- different types of carbs are worse than others - bread, pasta etc

Most people who are diagnosed with diabetes, have been eating hugely excessive modern western/American diet, of 100s of grams of carbs per meal, mixed with tons of fat, and hugely excessive calorie consumption, over too few meals, combined with sedentary, desk-based lifestyle. There are so many factors.

The answer is not only to stop all carbs!

I agree with a number of these points but my experience of one was I didn’t eat to excess, I naturally shunned most carbs, was very sugar aware and was obediently avoiding fats. I ate little and often and still was overweight probably due to insulin resistance that I have traced back at least a decade before diagnosis.
 
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HSSS

Expert
Messages
7,465
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Check Thyroid levels. Check Vit D levels. Check lactate.

I thought we were talking real world! Lactate has never been on my extensive blood checks and getting drs to look at thyroid beyond standard “it’s in range so must be fine” is a joke.
 

Brunneria

Guru
Retired Moderator
Messages
21,889
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
@torchman2
So (in a nutshell) you went low carb and high fitness, developed hypothyroidism, ate terribly, got some glucose dysregulation while ill, sorted out your eating, took some supplements, and feel better?

I totally agree with you that we all do better when well nourished.
And there are plenty of forum members who find that dietary changes allow their bodies to ‘reverse’ glucose dysregulation (in some cases, notably some cases of T2). Members report that multiple approaches help with tackling T2, including LCHF (with or without weight loss), the Newcastle Diet, weight loss by other means, better overall nutrition, and ceasing dietary bad habits, increased exercise and fitness, fasting, supplementation with a variety of supplements and herbs (cinnamon, bitter melon, amla, berberine, etc.).

Another feature often mentioned on the forum is how stress, pain, infections (i.e. illness) often raise blood glucose levels, which then lower upon recovery.

It looks to me as though you have utilised/experienced a few of these in your journey.
In your case your glucose dysregulation has improved (for now) allowing you greater carb tolerance.
This doesn’t always happen, but I am delighted that it has for you.
Although you have not mentioned any formal medical testing that shows you had diabetes.

I REALLY do not wish to belittle your experience.
Myself, I have a long history of medical issues that were not confirmed for decades by my health care professionals. So I know how frustrating it is to not have test results that stop people from declaring your symptoms don't exist.
But I hope you can appreciate that you are posting on a forum that is filled with people who have trodden this path before you, and who have tried (with varying degrees of success) many of your suggestions.

I would argue that you do not have sufficient data to show which of your many behavioural changes and dietary changes have contributed to your blood glucose changes. It may even have simply been your illness. You have no way of showing how each change has impacted, because you have not recorded their impact in isolation. Unless you have detailed records on each individual protocol?

By your own admission, you went from a bad diet to a better one.
Maybe that was enough for you. Some members find this.
Maybe it was the illness? In which case your blood glucose would have returned to normal anyway, irrespective of your changes.

I had a look at the studies you linked to.

The first one had dubious relevance (in the context) since, by its own statement, its purpose was to show that
Ultimately, a better understanding of the pathophysiology of type 2 diabetes will aid the development of new and complementary drug targets.
And focused heavily on conventional understanding of insulin resistance, much of which is not supported by personal experience of forum members, as reported here on the forum, and by other research used by Ivor Cummins and Jason Fung, to name a couple.

The other links you posted show that good nutrition helps people to regulate blood glucose, while nutritional deficiencies do not.

To be frank, I am not seeing anything that is new and not discussed all over the forum on a daily basis, except that your presentation of the information seems to imply that you have discovered new information that others have failed to notice - despite your suggestions being utilised, daily, by forum members.
 
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lindijanice

Well-Known Member
Messages
433
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Interesting discussion, but I wonder where the OP's feeling about all this!! Is it helpful to you at all, @memememeiii ?! Any take away thoughts from you? Hope you are getting the advise you were looking for/L
 
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kokhongw

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,394
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Your experience with the recent restoration of your glucose metabolism is certainly interesting. But your interpretation and assertions on certain points regarding fats/glucose/LCHF/Keto metabolism are debatable when applied to the general experience of T2D members of this forum.

Perhaps start a separate thread so that we do not further derail the OP's initial dilemma...

Thanks for the comments. I only put the sciencey bits and links to studies to show I'm not just making it up. "magnesium helps T2 diabetes" really needs links to studies to show this.

Background--> I did low carb from around 2011-2013. Then Keto, then had hypothyroidism diagnosed around end of 2013. Started eating too many carbs, got fatter. No one told me I had to reteach my body to use carbs! Can't remember exact dates.

Main thing LCHF did for me was to get to 10% ish body fat, and have abs. I worked out a lot, did cardio etc. I felt good for about a year, then it tapered off but there are many related things: psychological effect of feeling "ripped", eating meals at the same time and recording calories etc. There was consistency to my eating, sleeping, training. So it can't all be attributed to just "LOW CARBS".

But I was also skinny considering how strong I was, now I see why.. the body was breaking down muscle tissue to make glucose. After a while, hair loss/thinning, bad sleep, freezing hands, as described above. I would wake up lots per night, need to pee a lot, etc.

At the time, I wanted to keep blood sugar low, so I had a BG meter. At one stage I had a neck issue that caused nerve pinching and numb fingers, and before this was diagnosed someone said it may be diabetes, so I used the meter to check that (this is 5/6 years ago). It wasn't diabetes, it was nerve issues, possibly from low Thyroid.

I pulled the meter out about a month ago (maybe even 5-6 weeks, guess it was first week of Nov), after being ill, and I was regularly hitting 10-12 FBG (12 FBG ***!!!), and 10 after eating. This went on for a few weeks. I was pretty shocked. For 2 weeks I don't think FBG was below 8. According to interwebs, I HAD DIABETES. Well, thankfully I had read enough to know I could do something about it. Was quite an interesting time, I was initially super freaked. I think I'd basically been eating too few meals per day, and eating close to 1000 calorie meals, with too much fat, and too much bread (sandwiches) and pasta. Plus being sick.

Just from eating regular, small meals, and taking magnesium and some B vitamins, (and few other things listed above, like aspiring and Vit K.. but mainly Mag and B complex) it's now within normal range again. I also upped my Thyroid hormone (t3). I'm testing BG 5+ times a day, there are little strips all over my house. I could see over the course of 2 weeks, I watched the FBG drop from 10, to 8s, to 7s, to 6s, to 5s.

So I can see what affects me: I can handle root vegetables, roasted or boiled, and most fruits. Bananas I can't, they're not ripe in UK and so have too much starch. I can't handle pasta or bread or pizza, it spikes post meal BG and the next day's FBG. I can do 50-60grams of carbs per meal (4 meals a day), and stay within 7-7.5 postprandial, and quickly drops to 5.5.

I ate a snack earlier after work today of 150-200grams of 5% Fage greek yogurt, and 30-40 grams of bonne mamon strawberry jam (2 tablespoons), so around 25-30grams of sugars... and tested 30 mins later... was 5.6 :)

The things I listed above are Thyroid, magnesium, salt, calcium, Vit D, potassium, all the B vitamins (biotin, niacinamide, P5P, Thiamine etc), succinic acid, all held glucose clearance. Magnesium is the best for me, just having some at night before bed improves FBG.
 
M

Member496333

Guest
Got sick.
Self diagnosed diabetes.
Became scientist.
Fixed diabetes with glucose and magnesium.
 

Brunneria

Guru
Retired Moderator
Messages
21,889
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I wholeheartedly agree with @lindijanice that this discussion has drifted way off @memememeiii 's original topic, and deserves its own thread. And I apologise for my part in the derailing discussion.

If anyone would like to continue the discussion with @torchman2 then please start a new thread to do so.

Meanwhile, hopefully Memememeiii will return and give an update on how she is doing.