Newbie from across the pond.

TonyKeto

Newbie
Messages
3
Hello all.
I found this forum while searching for more information on the Dawn Phenomenon. A few months ago in July, my GP told me to watch my BG, because my fasting BG was too high.

At that point, I was already fooling around with the ketogenic diet but decided to make an earnest commitment to address not only the BG, but also weight, and blood pressure. ( have hypertension and take meds for this).
Got my myself some blood meters for both BG and ketones, and began testing and dieting in earnest. I also added moderate exercise to help lower liver glycogen levels.

What I found through testing several times a day, is that in the early morning right after I awoke, my BG would be around 6.54 (I used a calculator to change DLs to MMLs for you Europeans) and would persist for several hours in the morning, and would normalize later in the day to about 4.4 (these are all fasting or before meal levels). So, I realized, after some research, that I was suffering from the Dawn Phenomenon, which I now believe to some degree is normal. The body goes through a wake-up cycle according to your Circadian rhythm. Part of this cycle, involves your liver dumping glycogen into your blood, to help you wake up and provide energy to begin your day. And of course, this is when the doctor tests you. They want you to fast after dinner the night before, and not eat anything when you come in early in the morning. So, my doctor gave me 3 months to "fix" this, or he was going to put me on drugs.

So, with my meters and my diet, I did some testing on myself to see if I could address the dawn effect. The diet was able to lower my overall BG to about 3.8, but I still woke up with the elevated BG, that I was sure my doctor would call me on.
One thought was to change my appointment to the afternoon when my BG was in the normal range. As a keto guy, fasting is not difficult for me, and I had already done several 24 and 48-hour fasts as body hacking experiments. But still, the dawn effect persisted.

I finally hit upon the formula, I was able to completely deplete my liver of glycogen with a 72 hour fast. Now my waking BG level was like 3.8. Armed with this information, I fasted for 72 hours prior to my October deadline appointment with my Dr. I was feeling good, I knew my BG was down, and I had also lost a few pounds down from 185 to 165 Lbs (sorry I did not convert this. I'm a yank)

So, of course, The Dr did do the full pallet of blood tests. He called me up the following day with the results, he was ecstatic. "Your BG looks great! You don't have to worry about your blood sugar any more" (Not sound advice, we all know we need to keep doing what we are doing to stay healthy, not forget about it like my Dr. seemed to imply). He went on "Your weight is great, you've reached your target, but your cholesterol is through the roof!" Great I thought, just frigging great. " I'll give you three months to get it down or I'm gonna put you on statins. Back off this keto thing, eat less fat, go more like a Mediterranean diet".

OK, I get it, this is diagnosis by numbers! So, I did some research in the Keto community, Did more reading, books like Cholesterol Clarity, Jimmy Moore, and Dr. Fung's books. There is much evidence that weight loss during Ketosis will increase your LDL cholesterol, as you process your own body fat. This condition should be temporary and should subside after about 6 months of a stabilized weight. In fact, your HDL should go up, Triglycerides should drop. But my Dr, was only giving me 3 months! What was I going to do? I did not want my Med records to show a statin prescription because here in the USA, your insurance company will hound you to take the meds forever!

Solution,
Change Doctors! I found a Dr in my area, that is Keto savvy, and has experience with Chinese medicine. He had no problem ordering me the advanced Lipid test Jimmy Moore talks about, as well as a CT scan to see if I actually have any buildup in my heart.
So, That's my story.
Thanks for listening. :)
 
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Member496333

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Welcome along, Tony. Excellent opening post! You’ll find a great deal of likeminded keto advocates around here. Great work on taking control of your health before it got out of hand, and even better work at being smart enough to resist the idea of statins.

I doth my cap to you sir :pompous:
 
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Rachox

Oracle
Retired Moderator
Messages
15,905
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Welcome to the forum and well done on your achievements so far!
I guess you’ll have already seen @daisy1 ‘s welcome post, but a refresher is always good.
On my type 2 diagnosis I didn’t go completely keto but cut my carbs right down, I’m currently eating 50g/day to maintain non diabetic levels. I lost a shed load of weight and dropped one of my BP meds as my BP normalised. The fly in the ointment always seems to be cholesterol. My total number has gone up but my ratios have improved. I’ll tag in @bulkbiker who can explain more for you.
I have been offered Statins a few times now but have declined!
 

daisy1

Legend
Messages
26,457
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Tablets (oral)
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Cruelty towards animals.
@TonyKeto
Hello Tony and welcome to the Forum :) Here is the Basic Information we give to new members and I hope you will find it useful, if you haven't seen this before.

BASIC INFORMATION FOR NEW MEMBERS

Diabetes is the general term to describe people who have blood that is sweeter than normal. A number of different types of diabetes exist.

A diagnosis of diabetes tends to be a big shock for most of us. It’s far from the end of the world though and on this forum you'll find well over 235,000 people who are demonstrating this.

On the forum we have found that with the number of new people being diagnosed with diabetes each day, sometimes the NHS is not being able to give all the advice it would perhaps like to deliver - particularly with regards to people with type 2 diabetes.

The role of carbohydrate

Carbohydrates are a factor in diabetes because they ultimately break down into sugar (glucose) within our blood. We then need enough insulin to either convert the blood sugar into energy for our body, or to store the blood sugar as body fat.

If the amount of carbohydrate we take in is more than our body’s own (or injected) insulin can cope with, then our blood sugar will rise.

The bad news

Research indicates that raised blood sugar levels over a period of years can lead to organ damage, commonly referred to as diabetic complications.

The good news

People on the forum here have shown that there is plenty of opportunity to keep blood sugar levels from going too high. It’s a daily task but it’s within our reach and it’s well worth the effort.

Controlling your carbs

The info below is primarily aimed at people with type 2 diabetes, however, it may also be of benefit for other types of diabetes as well.

There are two approaches to controlling your carbs:
  • Reduce your carbohydrate intake
  • Choose ‘better’ carbohydrates
Reduce your carbohydrates

A large number of people on this forum have chosen to reduce the amount of carbohydrates they eat as they have found this to be an effective way of improving (lowering) their blood sugar levels.

The carbohydrates which tend to have the most pronounced effect on blood sugar levels tend to be starchy carbohydrates such as rice, pasta, bread, potatoes and similar root vegetables, flour based products (pastry, cakes, biscuits, battered food etc) and certain fruits.

Choosing better carbohydrates

The low glycaemic index diet is often favoured by healthcare professionals but some people with diabetes find that low GI does not help their blood sugar enough and may wish to cut out these foods altogether.

Read more on carbohydrates and diabetes.

Over 145,000 people have taken part in the Low Carb Program - a 10 week structured education course that is helping people lose weight and reduce medication dependency by explaining the science behind carbs, insulin and GI.

Eating what works for you

Different people respond differently to different types of food. What works for one person may not work so well for another. The best way to see which foods are working for you is to test your blood sugar with a glucose meter.

To be able to see what effect a particular type of food or meal has on your blood sugar is to do a test before the meal and then test after the meal. A test 2 hours after the meal gives a good idea of how your body has reacted to the meal.

The blood sugar ranges recommended by NICE are as follows:

Blood glucose ranges for type 2 diabetes
  • Before meals: 4 to 7 mmol/l
  • 2 hours after meals: under 8.5 mmol/l
Blood glucose ranges for type 1 diabetes (adults)
  • Before meals: 4 to 7 mmol/l
  • 2 hours after meals: under 9 mmol/l
Blood glucose ranges for type 1 diabetes (children)
  • Before meals: 4 to 8 mmol/l
  • 2 hours after meals: under 10 mmol/l
However, those that are able to, may wish to keep blood sugar levels below the NICE after meal targets.

Access to blood glucose test strips

The NICE guidelines suggest that people newly diagnosed with type 2 diabetes should be offered:
  • structured education to every person and/or their carer at and around the time of diagnosis, with annual reinforcement and review
  • self-monitoring of plasma glucose to a person newly diagnosed with type 2 diabetes only as an integral part of his or her self-management education

Therefore both structured education and self-monitoring of blood glucose should be offered to people with type 2 diabetes. Read more on getting access to blood glucose testing supplies.

You may also be interested to read questions to ask at a diabetic clinic.

Note: This post has been edited from Sue/Ken's post to include up to date information.
Take part in Diabetes.co.uk digital education programs and improve your understanding. Most of these are free.

  • Low Carb Program - it's made front-page news of the New Scientist and The Times. Developed with 20,000 people with type 2 diabetes; 96% of people who take part recommend it... find out why

  • Hypo Program - improve your understanding of hypos. There's a version for people with diabetes, parents/guardians of children with type 1, children with type 1 diabetes, teachers and HCPs.
 

Bluetit1802

Legend
Messages
25,216
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Hi and welcome aboard.

Great first post and great to see how proactive you are.

We understand lbs in the UK. It's kgs that I can't get my head round. They didn't exist when I was at school. But thanks for converting the mg/dl stuff.

@bulkbiker will put you right about cholesterol and statins. Have a look at his long, long, thread. You will need several hours to get through it all.
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/cholesterol-and-statins.156985/

At the end of the day, all any doctor can do is advise. He can't force feed you with medication. The decision is yours.
 
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bulkbiker

BANNED
Messages
19,575
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Hi and welcome.
I've been tagged here a couple of times but my partner in crime @Bluetit1802 has already linked to the fairly extensive thread on cholesterol I put together so please enjoy that one.. It may take some time...
Sounds like you have everything right and in your shoes I'd be very reluctant to take statins.. well I never will.
Be interesting to hear your CAC scan result. Mine was 40 after 30 years of heavy drinking, obesity and heavy smoking which I though was reasonable. Will have another in a year or so check check on hopefully the lack of progression.
 

TonyKeto

Newbie
Messages
3
Wow! Thanks for all the welcoming messages! Some of the keto forums in the US seem a little hostile to newbies and many of the users seem more interested in being sarcastic than helpful. Anyone find any validity in that? Maybe folks across the pond are just.., nicer? Anyway, your messages are refreshing and thanks to all the links to peeps and threads of interest.
I notice that a couple of you have posted your historic stats. Is that something a lot of people do here?
Anyway, I'm excited to find some goodhearted helpful and likeminded folks Thanks
 

Rachox

Oracle
Retired Moderator
Messages
15,905
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
....I notice that a couple of you have posted your historic stats. Is that something a lot of people do here?

It’s entirely up to you if you want to put stats in your signature. I like to do it to inspire others and to keep myself on the straight and narrow by declaring my numbers.
 
M

Member496333

Guest
Just to add that I don’t think you can see the option to add or edit a signature until you’ve progressed past newbie status :)

By the way I lived in the US for a while and on balance I found you guys to be far more polite and friendly than the majority of the British that I encounter. I think you’ll find most people here are so friendly because we all have extreme empathy for other diabetics, particularly the newly diagnosed :)
 
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kitedoc

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,783
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
Dislikes
black jelly beans
Hi @TonyKeto. Are you sure that your GP was just ordering the fasting BG and not what is called HBA1C (glycosylated haemoglobin A1C). The latter is a test which gives an average idea of what your BGs have been like over the previous 3 months.
The point about you fasting and then having the blood test for BG is that you are really just conning yourself and your doctor.
You are not going to be fasting for 72 hours all the time, so that good BSL you obtained the second time around is not representative of your usual day. Be honest with your doctor and yourself.
 
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JAT1

Well-Known Member
Messages
565
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
Welcome ! This is a great forum for information, support and good reading.
 

jjraak

Expert
Messages
7,500
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
Hello all.


....which I now believe to some degree is normal. The body goes through a wake-up cycle according to your Circadian rhythm.

...Part of this cycle, involves your liver dumping glycogen into your blood, to help you wake up and provide energy to begin your day.

....I did some testing on myself to see if I could address the dawn effect.
The diet was able to lower my overall BG to about 3.8, but I still woke up with the elevated BG,


....I finally hit upon the formula, I was able to completely deplete my liver of glycogen with a 72 hour fast.

....Now my waking BG level was like 3.8.
...and I had also lost a few pounds down from 185 to 165 Lbs

Hi @TonyKeto .

I bumped into your post while surfing the forum.
Just wanted to say welcome and Fascinating first post.

I have SOOO much reading to do, and it's posts like this that signpost the way for me..Thank you.

I do not have the experience to offer any advice, so i'll leave that to the others.

The crew on here as you've found out are knowledgeable AND friendly..
( I'm new-ish and haven't come across anything but helpful advise and curtesy. )

I'm with @Bluetit1802 with the KG thing...Stones i can easily imagine what THAT looks like, slowly coming to the more american i think. LBS..so i get that too...But KG's..Not a Scoobie Doo, what that would look like until i convert it to LBS..LoL

And i DO find it helpful and inspiring the Numbers that @Rachox puts up as Sig <Respects>...
It's Nice to see a 'Goal' that IS achievable, with the right dedication and guidance.

Forgive the intrusion, and i'll now retire into the background again to soak up the knowledge you all have.

Cheers
 
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JoKalsbeek

Expert
Messages
5,980
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Hello all.
I found this forum while searching for more information on the Dawn Phenomenon. A few months ago in July, my GP told me to watch my BG, because my fasting BG was too high.

At that point, I was already fooling around with the ketogenic diet but decided to make an earnest commitment to address not only the BG, but also weight, and blood pressure. ( have hypertension and take meds for this).
Got my myself some blood meters for both BG and ketones, and began testing and dieting in earnest. I also added moderate exercise to help lower liver glycogen levels.

What I found through testing several times a day, is that in the early morning right after I awoke, my BG would be around 6.54 (I used a calculator to change DLs to MMLs for you Europeans) and would persist for several hours in the morning, and would normalize later in the day to about 4.4 (these are all fasting or before meal levels). So, I realized, after some research, that I was suffering from the Dawn Phenomenon, which I now believe to some degree is normal. The body goes through a wake-up cycle according to your Circadian rhythm. Part of this cycle, involves your liver dumping glycogen into your blood, to help you wake up and provide energy to begin your day. And of course, this is when the doctor tests you. They want you to fast after dinner the night before, and not eat anything when you come in early in the morning. So, my doctor gave me 3 months to "fix" this, or he was going to put me on drugs.

So, with my meters and my diet, I did some testing on myself to see if I could address the dawn effect. The diet was able to lower my overall BG to about 3.8, but I still woke up with the elevated BG, that I was sure my doctor would call me on.
One thought was to change my appointment to the afternoon when my BG was in the normal range. As a keto guy, fasting is not difficult for me, and I had already done several 24 and 48-hour fasts as body hacking experiments. But still, the dawn effect persisted.

I finally hit upon the formula, I was able to completely deplete my liver of glycogen with a 72 hour fast. Now my waking BG level was like 3.8. Armed with this information, I fasted for 72 hours prior to my October deadline appointment with my Dr. I was feeling good, I knew my BG was down, and I had also lost a few pounds down from 185 to 165 Lbs (sorry I did not convert this. I'm a yank)

So, of course, The Dr did do the full pallet of blood tests. He called me up the following day with the results, he was ecstatic. "Your BG looks great! You don't have to worry about your blood sugar any more" (Not sound advice, we all know we need to keep doing what we are doing to stay healthy, not forget about it like my Dr. seemed to imply). He went on "Your weight is great, you've reached your target, but your cholesterol is through the roof!" Great I thought, just frigging great. " I'll give you three months to get it down or I'm gonna put you on statins. Back off this keto thing, eat less fat, go more like a Mediterranean diet".

OK, I get it, this is diagnosis by numbers! So, I did some research in the Keto community, Did more reading, books like Cholesterol Clarity, Jimmy Moore, and Dr. Fung's books. There is much evidence that weight loss during Ketosis will increase your LDL cholesterol, as you process your own body fat. This condition should be temporary and should subside after about 6 months of a stabilized weight. In fact, your HDL should go up, Triglycerides should drop. But my Dr, was only giving me 3 months! What was I going to do? I did not want my Med records to show a statin prescription because here in the USA, your insurance company will hound you to take the meds forever!

Solution,
Change Doctors! I found a Dr in my area, that is Keto savvy, and has experience with Chinese medicine. He had no problem ordering me the advanced Lipid test Jimmy Moore talks about, as well as a CT scan to see if I actually have any buildup in my heart.
So, That's my story.
Thanks for listening. :)


You've had a load of useful posts already, so I'll just say two things; "Welcome!" And "You decide whether you start on statins or not. He can't stand beside you every morning with a glass of water". (In other words, you have a choice. Especially knowing the rise is temporarty due to weight loss. Maybe bring some documentation about that phenomenon with you at the next appointment? ;) )
 
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Brunneria

Guru
Retired Moderator
Messages
21,889
Type of diabetes
Type 2
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Diet only
Hi Tony.

There is quite a lot of information about nowadays on how fasting and diet prior to a cholesterol test can affect the outcome (and potentially freak medical professionals :( )

One point is that a fast of over 10 hrs (yours was72 hrs) can raise LDL levels significantly.

Another point is that The Feldman Protocol of a 3 day VERY high fat diet prior to the test can make significant changes to the outcome too.

@Guzzler recently posted an excellent vid on this subject, but I am on my phone at the mo and cannot find it for you. Maybe she will drop the link in here, if we ask nicely ;)

I do, however, agree with @kitedoc that manipulating test results isn’t a good thing, especially if there will be treatment decisions as a result.

On the other hand, if regular extended fasts and keto is your ongoing lifestyle, then you are getting your current lifestyle tested. :)
 
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T2#Me

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Messages
136
Hello and welcome ... excellent first post ... I love your expression "diagnosis by numbers", I think I may steal it.
I also doff my cap to you, and wish you continued success :)
 
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Guzzler

Master
Messages
10,577
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Type 2
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Hi Tony.

There is quite a lot of information about nowadays on how fasting and diet prior to a cholesterol test can affect the outcome (and potentially freak medical professionals :( )

One point is that a fast of over 10 hrs (yours was72 hrs) can raise LDL levels significantly.

Another point is that The Feldman Protocol of a 3 day VERY high fat diet prior to the test can make significant changes to the outcome too.

@Guzzler recently posted an excellent vid on this subject, but I am on my phone at the mo and cannot find it for you. Maybe she will drop the link in here, if we ask nicely ;)

I do, however, agree with @kitedoc that manipulating test results isn’t a good thing, especially if there will be treatment decisions as a result.

On the other hand, if regular extended fasts and keto is your ongoing lifestyle, then you are getting your current lifestyle tested. :)

Hi Brunneria, I can't find a recent video from Dave that I posted but the OP will surely find it in Bulkbikers excellent thread entitled Cholesterol and Statins.
I think this one was the most recent offering from Dr. Paul Mason and I think it's worth a repost.

To the OP. Welcome to the forum, this video may shed some light for you but does not mention the Feldman Protocol in any detail. Enjoy!

 
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Brunneria

Guru
Retired Moderator
Messages
21,889
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Hi Brunneria, I can't find a recent video from Dave that I posted but the OP will surely find it in Bulkbikers excellent thread entitled Cholesterol and Statins.
I think this one was the most recent offering from Dr. Paul Mason and I think it's worth a repost.

To the OP. Welcome to the forum, this video may shed some light for you but does not mention the Feldman Protocol in any detail. Enjoy!


Thanks
That is the vid I was thinking about. Thank you!
 

Smallbrit

Well-Known Member
Messages
284
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
By the way I lived in the US for a while and on balance I found you guys to be far more polite and friendly than the majority of the British that I encounter. I think you’ll find most people here are so friendly because we all have extreme empathy for other diabetics, particularly the newly diagnosed :)

I lived in the US for 15 years and would sort of agree with that. But also I had the luck of being advised wholeheartedly by ob-gyns and nutritionists and midwives (that one is fairly radical as there aren't many midwives in the US) in carb counting/testing to meters approaches when I had gestational diabetes. Which put me in a good position when I returned to the UK and was diagnosed with type 2, as I didn't realise that was not the general viewpoint of the NHS for type 2 treatment.

It took me ages to get used to UK vs US differences (in everything, but measurements in particular) so thanks for the conversion!