Type 2 Eat to the meter, or play the long game?

[Member496333]

Poor choice of words on my part, not yours.

And I got the last example on my list backwards (now edited)

 

[Daphne917]

I believe they ARE DIFFERENT.

Eating to the meter is like being a nicotine addict trying to pack up fags, but still having a crafty drag now and then.

Using a meter to check the effect of good food choices is one thing, but using a meter to monitor whether or not we can get away with (e.g.) porridge and bananas is quite another.

We all know that carbs are not good for us (read poison) yet how many times have T2D members reported having a crafty pizza, Chinese take-away, Ritz cracker, etc. when accounting for their high glucose readings.

I don't wish to offend anyone, but Jim's question is a very good one and is subtly ferreting out whether we want to manage T2D or cure ourselves of it.

You sound as though you want all T2 diabetics to conform to your way of thinking ie very low carb or keto is the only way to manage their BS and that we should not eat foods that we have tested for and doesn’t raise our BS too much just because it has more carbs others find acceptable or will eat. My average carb intake is approx 100g per day although I will be the first to admit that I sometimes exceed this level however, it is by testing that I know what I can eat and yes I often eat bread, albeit low carb, potatoes and occasionally pizza, rice or pasta. I also feel that having maintained a non diabetic hba1c (mostly between 34 and 37) for over 5 years my diabetes is well managed, probably in remission and possibly reversed. I have managed to achieve this by ‘eating to my meter’ and experimenting with foods that are higher carb but which I like to eat - scampi is still my nemesis though so have given up on it for the moment.

 

[Member496333]

One thing that does seem certain here is that the most effective approach for the individual depends greatly on the progression and severity of the condition upon diagnosis. In my view lending further credence to the glucose overflow hypothesis. The longer you’ve had diabetes the longer it takes to return to normal and the more intensive the intervention required to do so.

I would also just like to ask again that we all take the default outlook that opinions expressed in this discussion are merely from people sharing their own views and experiences. This is very much not meant to be about defending one’s own position or questioning that of others. Thanks

 

[jillsymes66]

I'm a bit of both. Mainly I eat keto but on some occasions I'll say sod it and eat something that know I'll need extra insulin for. I've been T1 since 1992 and I think if I didn't have the occasional splurge I'd would probably rebel and eat whatever I wanted all the time and ****** the consequences but that's just me

 

[BloodThirsty]

You sound as though you want all T2 diabetics to conform to your way of thinking ie very low carb or keto is the only way to manage their BS and that we should not eat foods that we have tested for and doesn’t raise our BS too much just because it has more carbs others find acceptable or will eat. My average carb intake is approx 100g per day although I will be the first to admit that I sometimes exceed this level however, it is by testing that I know what I can eat and yes I often eat bread, albeit low carb, potatoes and occasionally pizza, rice or pasta. I also feel that having maintained a non diabetic hba1c (mostly between 34 and 37) for over 5 years my diabetes is well managed, probably in remission and possibly reversed. I have managed to achieve this by ‘eating to my meter’ and experimenting with foods that are higher carb but which I like to eat - scampi is still my nemesis though so have given up on it for the moment.

Apologies if I sounded prescriptive... I just wanted to distinguish between managing T2D and attempting to reverse it.

Nonetheless, there is no doubt it my mind (and many others) that minimising carbs is the solution to the latter.

YMMV however and I totally respect yours and others' viewpoints.

 

[Ponchu]

Perhaps I should clarify.

Eating to the meter = testing before and after food. Or knowing that the food you’re eating is putting glucose into your body but you’re happy with that.

Long game = not needing to test before or after. Keeping your toe in the water with occasional or daily fasting checks, but otherwise knowing that you are depleting glucose, not putting some in.

In my mind there’s a distinct difference between the two and I have extensive experience of both approaches. Anyway thanks for the responses so far

Does the former lead to the latter?

The more you test the less you test?

 

[Member496333]

Does the former lead to the latter?

The more you test the less you test?

Stands to reason. That’s not how it really planned out for me personally though. I just reached a stage where enough was enough and decided to go full-keto. I found doing deals with meals was becoming depressing and restrictive. A pervasive feeling of deprivation. Fairly quickly afterwards, I didn’t need to test anything other than fasting and maybe before the evening meal. This is a measure of my insulin resistance rather than a measure of the effects of my meals

 

[Mr_Pot]

Stands to reason. That’s not how it really planned out for me personally though. I just reached a stage where enough was enough and decided to go full-keto. I found doing deals with meals was becoming depressing and restrictive. A pervasive feeling of deprivation. Fairly quickly afterwards, I didn’t need to test anything other than fasting and maybe before the evening meal. This is a measure of my insulin resistance rather than a measure of the effects of my meals

But you still eat vegetables which contain some carbs. So you are no different from anyone else on a low carb diet except that you have set your carb limit very low.

 

[Member496333]

But you still eat vegetables which contain some carbs. So you are no different from anyone else on a low carb diet except that you have set your carb limit very low.

Yes indeed I do eat a lot of overground fibrous vegetables but I would think that the fibre essentially cancels out the net effect. The difference between low carb and lower carb is the difference between using glucose and ketones as your primary fuel source, so actually it’s quite profound. But again it’s not a competition

 

[lucylocket61]

Yes. This is the crux of it, except to say that “subtly ferreting out” probably implies judgement, which was not my intention at all. To reframe the choice;

Eat to the meter vs. long game.
Low carb vs. keto.
Manage vs. reverse.

Call it what you will

again, all those choices are very black and white, with no room for ideas about different uses of our meter, ideas about managing multiple illnesses, or managing food choices. Its all far more individual than the choices make out.

 

[lucylocket61]

I would also just like to ask again that we all take the default outlook that opinions expressed in this discussion are merely from people sharing their own views and experiences. This is very much not meant to be about defending one’s own position or questioning that of others. Thanks

I dont see defensiveness, and questions are vital is a discussion, otherwise it is a sounding board, not a discussion. As is the sharing of personal experiences.

I see explanations, factual points raised, and personal experiences and methods shared in this discussion.

 

[Member496333]

again, all those choices are very black and white, with no room for ideas about different uses of our meter, ideas about managing multiple illnesses, or managing food choices. Its all far more individual than the choices make out.

To be fair, the difference between the metabolic pathways of glycolysis and ketosis is fairly black & white. I guess ultimately that is what is being asked in the titular question

 

[Ponchu]

Stands to reason. That’s not how it really planned out for me personally though. I just reached a stage where enough was enough and decided to go full-keto. I found doing deals with meals was becoming depressing and restrictive. A pervasive feeling of deprivation. Fairly quickly afterwards, I didn’t need to test anything other than fasting and maybe before the evening meal. This is a measure of my insulin resistance rather than a measure of the effects of my meals

I’m likely on a similar path and am here:

“I can tolerate ________, but do I really need/want it?”


Unless I try something new, I don’t need to test much, if at all. More curiosity, methinks, than necessity.

 

[Mr_Pot]

Yes indeed I do eat a lot of overground fibrous vegetables but I would think that the fibre essentially cancels out the net effect. The difference between low carb and lower carb is the difference between using glucose and ketones as your primary fuel source, so actually it’s quite profound. But again it’s not a competition

In what way does fibre cancel out the effect of carbohydrates?

 

[Member496333]

In what way does fibre cancel out the effect of carbohydrates?

Much of the carbohydrate in green overground vegetables is fibre. The fibre is largely indigestible and passes through us without a glucose response.

 

[Brunneria]

Like @Burg i prioritise insulin levels and insulin resistance over blood glucose.

I can keep OK blood glucose levels eating 40-60g carbs a day, spread out through the day. It seems a fine way of existing - for a while. Lots of interesting food, variety and very easy socially.

But while my bg may seem fine, my insulin requirements are larger. With the knock on result that my insulin resistance increases. And eventually, my bg drifts gently upwards too.
With the result (increasing with time) of raised risk of more metabolic syndrome (raised cholesterol, raised bg, raised bp, apple shape)
https://bestpractice.bmj.com/topics/en-us/212

Kraft and Cummins both strongly link increased insulin and insulin restance to heart disease (including atherosclerosis) and several of the other chronic diseases of modern society.
http://www.thefatemperor.com/blog/2015/9/7/kraft-summary-re-post-for-those-who-missed-it

I find their opinions utterly convincing, with the added experience of years of observing my own experiences of raised IR.
I get aches, lethargy, apathy, carb cravings, brain fog and blunder through life without joie de vie.
We have Alzheimers in the family. Brain IR is a huge risk factor.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12467491
Diabetics are at significantly increased risk of Alzheimers than the general population.

The way I look at it, is that keeping bg ‘in target’ is like placing a sticking plaster over a cut.
Its a good thing. Very good. I encourage everyone to do it.

Keeping insulin and insulin resistance levels low, is like wearing protective gloves and using the right tools in the first place - so you don’t get cut.
I need to be keto or carnivore to achieve that.

Am I perfect? Do i achieve this all the time? Hell no. I love food too much for that. But i definitely play a long game.

Edited to add the Alzheimers stuff.

 

[Resurgam]

Much of the carbohydrate in green overground vegetables is fibre. The fibre is largely indigestible and passes through us without a glucose response.

Then is isn't carbohydrate - not by my definition and the rules used by the UK food industry.
In the US they include the fibre in the carb count - but that just means it has to be subtracted from the tally - it doesn't actually reduce the 'real' carb count.

 

[Resurgam]

Yes indeed I do eat a lot of overground fibrous vegetables but I would think that the fibre essentially cancels out the net effect. The difference between low carb and lower carb is the difference between using glucose and ketones as your primary fuel source, so actually it’s quite profound. But again it’s not a competition

I think that you have that wrong - I eat a low carb diet, but I am in ketosis most of the time. I am definitely not using glucose as a primary fuel source - my body fat is reducing each week.

 

[Member496333]

I find this whole thing extreme, now we shouldnt eat to our meter, just eat so few carbs we dont need to? Lol

This is great if you enjoy life eating a very restrictive diet but have to say that this will likely put off more people from going low carb than encourage it as a doable lifestyle, I therefore see this kind of discussion on here as counterproductive.

The people who really matter are the folks coming here after a diagnosis, having no idea how to control this thing, do you honestly think that suggesting we should only eat carbs that come from above ground vegetables will in someway help more than 1% of newly diagnosed people?

Eating to a meter is an awesome method to control diabetes, for a huge majority, this will save many lives and avoid most of the nasties along the way.

A reduction in carbs is the message needed, not keto, keto is an extreme choice that people that eat low carb diets should decide to choose.

Its like saying to a smoker, “stop smoking cigarettes then get an oxygen tank and wear the mask 24 hours a day” rather than “stop smoking”.

This competition is self obsessed, and frankly dangerous.

I should add I have eaten LCHF and Keto for many years, I am not anti LC

Just my opinion. No offence intended.

Ill get my coat.

It’s an open discussion among adults. You are free to eat as you wish, but please do not judge others for choosing a different path. I respectfully guide you back to the first paragraph of the first post. If you think the discussion is inappropriate then you should report it to the moderating team.

 

[bulkbiker]

In an open discussion, should I not be able to say I find it inappropriate?

I dont think I am judging others, there is judgement going on though

Do you mean you find the whole discussion inappropriate and would rather it didn't take place ?
That smacks a bit of censorship..

Also you talk about being non judgemental while using phrases like " self obsessed, and frankly dangerous." "keto is an extreme choice" which sounds pretty judgemental to me...