Advice on trends

Boozon

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47
Type of diabetes
LADA
Hi - Yesterday I started using a libre and would like to gauge people's opinions on the results so far.

Attached is the last 24 hrs where a number of ups and downs occurred.

- Went to bed about 8 and overnight my levels came down to approx 6 when I woke. Does this mean my basal seems correct?
- At lunch today I injected 4 units for approx 40 grams of carbs and went up to about 11 for a short period but then came down below 9 after 2 hrs. Does this mean I didn't inject enough insulin or is it that I injected too near my food?

Thanks

Rob
 

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porl69

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I would say you injected too close to your food
 
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novorapidboi26

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Looks like overnight basal could be a bit too high....

as for the meal time dose......as @porl69 states, giving the dose a bit longer to work means that the insulin's peak and the peak or the food will match more closely....
 
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Draco16

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182
Type of diabetes
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I'd give it a few more days to observe trends before making changes to your basal, because as we know there are so many other variables at work: who knows you may find other nights you go to bed at 8 and wake at 10 on your current basal dose. On that one days evidence it might be a touch too high though.

On the mealtime spike you have just had the OMG / jaw dropping / life changing / scary / shocking / you've been tango'd moment that shows the need to pre-bolus that you realise when you start using Libre.
 
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Boozon

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47
Type of diabetes
LADA
Thanks @porl69 @novorapidboi26 and @Draco16 - much appreciated.

Tried bolusing 15mins before food last night.....think it worked but took too much insulin.

Taking my Tresiba at about 9 each night.
 

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Draco16

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182
Type of diabetes
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Thanks @porl69 @novorapidboi26 and @Draco16 - much appreciated.

Tried bolusing 15mins before food last night.....think it worked but took too much insulin.

Taking my Tresiba at about 9 each night.
With effective pre bolusing you may well find you need to reduce your bolus dose (because as you’re no longer rocketing up perhaps well into double figures, the bolus doesn’t have to do so much to drag you down from those highs).

Putting aside all the other things we need to consider when injecting: tired, stressed, well exercised, time of day etc with the Libre you can move on from

Y carbs = x dose

To

Type of carbs (fast / slow release) = dose calculated based on current level, trend arrow behaviour, amount of time of pre bolus.

As mentioned above it is all about marrying up the carb release profile with the insulin release profile. Libre and Dexcom are complete life changers for this.

15 mins as a first go may have been a little brave! I’d experiment with small tweaks, eg 5 minutes, 10, then 15, then 20 etc. Also then tweaking dose as you may need less. And always keep hypo treatments to hand as experiments can go wrong!

You’ll maybe find your pre bolus time varies by time of day. Eg for me (generalisations, other factors all tweak these)

Insulin / morning / lunch / night
Novarapid / 50 mins / 20 / 15
Fiasp / 15 / 5 / 5

Good luck!
 

Boozon

Well-Known Member
Messages
47
Type of diabetes
LADA
With effective pre bolusing you may well find you need to reduce your bolus dose (because as you’re no longer rocketing up perhaps well into double figures, the bolus doesn’t have to do so much to drag you down from those highs).

Putting aside all the other things we need to consider when injecting: tired, stressed, well exercised, time of day etc with the Libre you can move on from

Y carbs = x dose

To

Type of carbs (fast / slow release) = dose calculated based on current level, trend arrow behaviour, amount of time of pre bolus.

As mentioned above it is all about marrying up the carb release profile with the insulin release profile. Libre and Dexcom are complete life changers for this.

15 mins as a first go may have been a little brave! I’d experiment with small tweaks, eg 5 minutes, 10, then 15, then 20 etc. Also then tweaking dose as you may need less. And always keep hypo treatments to hand as experiments can go wrong!

You’ll maybe find your pre bolus time varies by time of day. Eg for me (generalisations, other factors all tweak these)

Insulin / morning / lunch / night
Novarapid / 50 mins / 20 / 15
Fiasp / 15 / 5 / 5

Good luck!
Thanks @Draco16.......Yes 15 mins may have been a bit brave. Needed a digestive and two munchies as felt like going to low.

Also went for a 20 min walk after dinner.....which I'm sure helped in some respects but not others :0)
 

Scott-C

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,474
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Hi, @Boozon , glad you're enjoying libre, it's been a total game changer for many of us.

The graph on the reader can look a bit uppy downy because the screen size is so small.

There's a piece of software which is more useful for detailed analysis:

www.freestylelibre.co.uk/libre/discover/your-data.html

I entered my bolus doses and carb counts and after a week or two it was useful to look over the daily graphs and see which meals worked out best in terms of post-meal peaks - it marks it on the graphs.

That let me work out ratios and a rough and ready pre-bolus time of about 20 mins.

I could then add a few bells and whistles. If I saw from the reader graph I was trending up, I'd lengthen the pre-bolus to give the insulin more time to get to work before hitting it with food, and vice-versa if the graph was already trending down.

And I'd adjust depending on whether the meal was low or high GI.

The software also produces an AGP graph - ambulatory glucose profile. You select a time period, a few weeks or so, and it strips out the top and bottom 10% as outliers, then collates the daily graphs into a single typical day.

That way, rather than trying to assess trends from the daily graphs, it's easier to see recurring trends over a period of time, such as declining during the night, which suggests basal needs tweaked, or post-lunch spikes, which suggests a ratio or timing adjustment.

Once you see a definite recurring trend in the AGP, you can then have a look at the daily graphs for the time of day it's recurring to see if those give any more clues about dosage etc.

Another really useful thing is the Active Insulin Calculator. It's tucked away in the Professional Options, the code to access it is CAA1C. After you set it up, each time you enter a bolus, a gingerbread man will appeae on screen, tap it and it'll tell you how much insulin you've still got on board. It's very useful if you're deciding whether to do an inter-meal correction bolus. If I'm going too high between meals, and I see I've only got 1u IOB, I might reckon that's not enough to bring back down so might do a correction, whereas if there's 5u, I'll leave it.

There's a useful book on kindle which helped me a lot after I got libre, Sugar Surfing, Stephen Ponder. Lot of useful tips on how to interpret cgm graphs. One of his main themes is that diabetes and the action of insulin is so unpredictable that there is no such thing as a reliable fixed ratio, so if a meal is starting to spike you more than it should do, there's nothing wrong with doing a 1 or 2u inter-meal nudge down to keep in range. Or a quick 5g of glucose when you see it trending down to steer it clear long before it gets anywhere near hypo.

Once you've got familiar with libre, many of us have found it useful to add a small transmitter, like blucon or miaomiao, on top of it, which turns it into full on cgm. The transmitter pings a reading every 5 mins to a phone app, xDrip+ for android, or Spike for iPhone. The graphs are way more detailed, and you get hypo/hyper alerts and predictions.

Good luck!
 

DunePlodder

Well-Known Member
Messages
861
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
Thanks @Draco16.......Yes 15 mins may have been a bit brave. Needed a digestive and two munchies as felt like going to low.

Also went for a 20 min walk after dinner.....which I'm sure helped in some respects but not others :0)

Since you have the Libre 15 minutes is fine - that dose probably won't do anything much for 40 minutes or more. Did you do a blood test to check that you really were going low? If you see a drop in that 15 minutes, it's from earlier insulin or perhaps exercise.
I often walk pretty soon after a meal too and that can be tricky to deal with. My method is to split the dose - you need some active insulin for when the food takes effect, so pre bolus as you have been, but delay the rest until later. For a 20 minute walk I would probably inject the remainder before walking but you need to experiment. The Libre allows you to do this.
Looking at your graph, I'd say you've made a very good start.
 

Boozon

Well-Known Member
Messages
47
Type of diabetes
LADA
Since you have the Libre 15 minutes is fine - that dose probably won't do anything much for 40 minutes or more. Did you do a blood test to check that you really were going low? If you see a drop in that 15 minutes, it's from earlier insulin or perhaps exercise.
I often walk pretty soon after a meal too and that can be tricky to deal with. My method is to split the dose - you need some active insulin for when the food takes effect, so pre bolus as you have been, but delay the rest until later. For a 20 minute walk I would probably inject the remainder before walking but you need to experiment. The Libre allows you to do this.
Looking at your graph, I'd say you've made a very good start.

Thanks @DunePlodder. Yes I did a finger prick. Was pretty much same as libre so knew I was going to go too low.

Will we how it goes over the next few days and split the dose if necessary.
 

Boozon

Well-Known Member
Messages
47
Type of diabetes
LADA
Hi, @Boozon , glad you're enjoying libre, it's been a total game changer for many of us.

The graph on the reader can look a bit uppy downy because the screen size is so small.

There's a piece of software which is more useful for detailed analysis:

www.freestylelibre.co.uk/libre/discover/your-data.html

I entered my bolus doses and carb counts and after a week or two it was useful to look over the daily graphs and see which meals worked out best in terms of post-meal peaks - it marks it on the graphs.

That let me work out ratios and a rough and ready pre-bolus time of about 20 mins.

I could then add a few bells and whistles. If I saw from the reader graph I was trending up, I'd lengthen the pre-bolus to give the insulin more time to get to work before hitting it with food, and vice-versa if the graph was already trending down.

And I'd adjust depending on whether the meal was low or high GI.

The software also produces an AGP graph - ambulatory glucose profile. You select a time period, a few weeks or so, and it strips out the top and bottom 10% as outliers, then collates the daily graphs into a single typical day.

That way, rather than trying to assess trends from the daily graphs, it's easier to see recurring trends over a period of time, such as declining during the night, which suggests basal needs tweaked, or post-lunch spikes, which suggests a ratio or timing adjustment.

Once you see a definite recurring trend in the AGP, you can then have a look at the daily graphs for the time of day it's recurring to see if those give any more clues about dosage etc.

Another really useful thing is the Active Insulin Calculator. It's tucked away in the Professional Options, the code to access it is CAA1C. After you set it up, each time you enter a bolus, a gingerbread man will appeae on screen, tap it and it'll tell you how much insulin you've still got on board. It's very useful if you're deciding whether to do an inter-meal correction bolus. If I'm going too high between meals, and I see I've only got 1u IOB, I might reckon that's not enough to bring back down so might do a correction, whereas if there's 5u, I'll leave it.

There's a useful book on kindle which helped me a lot after I got libre, Sugar Surfing, Stephen Ponder. Lot of useful tips on how to interpret cgm graphs. One of his main themes is that diabetes and the action of insulin is so unpredictable that there is no such thing as a reliable fixed ratio, so if a meal is starting to spike you more than it should do, there's nothing wrong with doing a 1 or 2u inter-meal nudge down to keep in range. Or a quick 5g of glucose when you see it trending down to steer it clear long before it gets anywhere near hypo.

Once you've got familiar with libre, many of us have found it useful to add a small transmitter, like blucon or miaomiao, on top of it, which turns it into full on cgm. The transmitter pings a reading every 5 mins to a phone app, xDrip+ for android, or Spike for iPhone. The graphs are way more detailed, and you get hypo/hyper alerts and predictions.

Good luck!

Thanks @Scott-C. Will take a look at the software this evening. Currently using a combination of my phone and reader to do the scanning......shame they are not aligned.

I did see Sugar Surfing referenced on a couple of websites bit wasn't sure what it was so will check it out.