Type 1 Humalin M3

Barkingmad2

Member
Messages
14
My blood sugar is not good, it's in double figures with a HbAlc of 75.
At the moment I'm on Novorapid 20 units 3 X day and Lantus 60 units at night. I'm 72 and have been diabetic for 40 years.
On Sunday with Humulin M3, has anyone made this change, or using Humulin. Thanks
 

rochari

Well-Known Member
Messages
154
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
My blood sugar is not good, it's in double figures with a HbAlc of 75.
At the moment I'm on Novorapid 20 units 3 X day and Lantus 60 units at night. I'm 72 and have been diabetic for 40 years.
On Sunday with Humulin M3, has anyone made this change, or using Humulin. Thanks

Yes, I made the change almost exactly as described by you. I’d been on many insulins over 50 years since diagnosis and when the one I was using was taken off the market the clinic put me onto Novorapid before meals and Levemir, once a day. That regime didn’t work for me although I know for the majority of folks it does.

The consultant then moved me onto M3 twice a day and I’m fine with it. In many ways it mirrors the insulins I’d used years ago and that makes me more comfortable. I’ve good sugar levels too. But, I’m retired, perhaps you are too and I think that’s why it works for me. My life now is more structured, meals eaten at the same time each day and I more or less have the same foods and volumes of it. Not sure but maybe that’s why M3 suits me best.

Bill
 
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kitedoc

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,783
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
Dislikes
black jelly beans
My blood sugar is not good, it's in double figures with a HbAlc of 75.
At the moment I'm on Novorapid 20 units 3 X day and Lantus 60 units at night. I'm 72 and have been diabetic for 40 years.
On Sunday with Humulin M3, has anyone made this change, or using Humulin. Thanks
Hi @Barkingmad2, As a T1D of 52 years, not as medical advice or opinion: I have been prescribed insulin similar in effect to Humulin M plus later Novorapid and a long acting insulin with similar effects to Lantus insulin
It sounds like you were prescribed a regular, fixed dosage of Novorapid and Lantus which is not how most people use it. The dose of Novorapid is usually tailored to deal with the particular meal. So X amount of carbs requires Y units of insulin.
When on multiple doses of insulin per day I found that I needed more insulin per amount of carbs in the morning than for lunch or dinner. And I could miss lunch if I was busy by just omitting the before lunch Novorapid dose.
Doctors who encourage their patients and work with them to find the best doses are like fine craftpersons. You learn with them how to fine tune doses of insulin AND food so there is less trouble. Not shonky joints or planing.
Then there is diet. The more carbs you eat the more insulin you need and the more chance of a mismatch and BSLs going too high or low.
Humulin M is a mixture of insulins. You cannot vary the dose to solve one trouble with blood sugar without affecting the other part of the 12 hours or so. I am assuming you are prescribed it for injection twice per day.
That is before breakfast and before dinner.
Below is a graph of how effective in lowering the blood sugar the Humulin M is over time. The higher the line is on the graph the more the effect on getting Blood sugar down. The following is a bit of guess work based on the Humulin M graph.
Each of us is a bit different in how insulin affects our blood sugars and when so this is also why the following is only a rough draft plan, so to speak. A guess only.
Mostly the blood sugar from a meal rises up to a maximum by about 2 hours after a meal.
You will notice that Humulin M taken just before, say breakfast, only reaches its maximum effect nearer 4 hours so it is late to the party. So you might discuss with your prescribing doctor whether you eat differently, or accept that your blood sugar might rise even higher than on the Novorapid x 3/Lantus x1 regime ? (Novorapid peaks in effect about the 2 to 3 hour mark).
The 4 hour peak of the morning Humulin M might subside slowly enough to see you through a small early lunch.
The other peak of the Humulin is smaller in lowering blood sugar and happens about 8 to 10 hours after injection. That completely misses lunch but might have some small effect for dinner at say 6 pm.
Now that might sound fine and dandy for dealing with daytime, what about the Humulin M taken before dinner? Blood sugars go up before the Humulin M can catch them (again). A dose injected at say 7 pm will peak in its blood-lowering effect about 11 pm when you are likely to be turning in for the night (unless you are a night owl like me)!!
Also that smaller 9 to 10 hours peak threatens to lower your blood sugar about 4 to 5 am. When asleep it is much more difficult to recognise a hypo or low blood sugar event. (and I can vouch for that)!!
Because we do not tend to dine in the middle of the night Humulin M is often prescribed at a smaller dose in the evening. That fits with most long-action part of insulins used in the evening.
If your doctor increases the evening dose of Humulin M3t o do something about that pesky high blood sugar after your evening meal all that might do is makes you more at risk of low blood sugars when you are trying to or are asleep.
I appreciate that @rochari has adapted back to older insulins but as he points out he has had to be careful with when and what he eats to cater for this change and there can be very little variation. I would bet (if I were a betting man) that he would be taking a supper to try and ward off low blood sugars at night. Certainly when I was on similar insulin way back that was a necessity !!
So I wish you well and I hope your doctor will work with you to get the blood sugars as good as possible.
As prescriber he has that responsibility.

IMG_4474.jpg
 
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rochari

Well-Known Member
Messages
154
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
I agree with all you say kitedoc. In so many ways (and as a happy user of M3) its performance is good for me but, as I've said, I feel sure it is because of my more sedentary lifestyle now and my diet. I grew up with a mother and grandmother who were also type 1's and in our household all those years ago the diet sheet ruled and with no variations. Possibly that's why I've always stuck to the same simple foods, amounts and eating times. My youngest, now in his 50s does not believe me when I say I have never, ever felt hungry since diagnosis in 1963. It's true.

>I appreciate that @rochari has adapted back to older insulins but as he points out he has had to be careful with when and what he eats to cater for this change and there can be very little variation. I would bet (if I were a betting man) that he would be taking a supper to try and ward off low blood sugars at night. Certainly when I was on similar insulin way back that was a necessity !!<

Spot on! Although my sugar level is perfect late evening I must take supper because, as you say, that drop WILL happen. Also, I am very aware of the early evening drop you mention and monitor it closely. In the days of urine testing that 'isophane effect', when I was on a different insulin (can't remember its name), once added to a very bad hypo a few hours after I'd taken my second shot of the day. I keep a small supply of Novorapid to let me take a few units if the same level is high.

I really hope things get better for Barkingmad2 because the stress of dealing with what's happening will be difficult.

Bill
 

kitedoc

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,783
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
Dislikes
black jelly beans
Thank you Bill,
I remember the 'good, old' Isophane days. I used to mix it with Soluble Insulin (could that be the one you were thinking of)?
In the long acting variety there as Lente as an alternative to Isophane.
I am glad the Humulin M suits you. It is bit like the old dilemma: does Mohamend go to the mountain, or does the mountain come to Mohamed ? That juggle between insulin and food !!
Best Wishes,
Tony
 

rochari

Well-Known Member
Messages
154
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
It was indeed Soluble, Tony. So many memories too of times, sitting in train station or restaurant toilets with a glass syringe, two bottles of insulin and 2 needles (daft, but you'll remember we were always told, one needle into the bottles replaced by one needle into you!). Once shaken and mixed into the syringe you then had to be an acrobat in trying to put everything down (or anywhere) as you held firmly onto the syringe, ready to inject. In those situations even the wee blue rigid case didn't help much and more often or not it got in the way. I'd to travel a lot due to my job in those days and how great it was to begin using the insulin pen with a pre-mixed cartridge inside it.

Lente was my first insulin and I am sure I injected it only once a day. Again, I may be wrong.

Bill
 

kitedoc

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,783
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
Dislikes
black jelly beans
Yes Bill I recall injecting whilst on a moving train and timing the injection between the bouncing up and down. Finding a quiet bench in a park of a town. The carrying of the glass syringe and needles in a container full of metho and then on the stove boiling up syringe and needle within a basket fashioned of (new) flyscreen inside an aluminium container which had once contained a medicinal powder. The syringe and needles at home were kept in the fridge in a butter container filled with metho. I had to also make my own distilled water for use on the stove and for flushing metho out of the syringe and needles. !!
Compared to today it seems like we were on the frontier of civilisation!!
 

RVyas

Newbie
Messages
3
Hi @Barkingmad2, As a T1D of 52 years, not as medical advice or opinion: I have been prescribed insulin similar in effect to Humulin M plus later Novorapid and a long acting insulin with similar effects to Lantus insulin
It sounds like you were prescribed a regular, fixed dosage of Novorapid and Lantus which is not how most people use it. The dose of Novorapid is usually tailored to deal with the particular meal. So X amount of carbs requires Y units of insulin.
When on multiple doses of insulin per day I found that I needed more insulin per amount of carbs in the morning than for lunch or dinner. And I could miss lunch if I was busy by just omitting the before lunch Novorapid dose.
Doctors who encourage their patients and work with them to find the best doses are like fine craftpersons. You learn with them how to fine tune doses of insulin AND food so there is less trouble. Not shonky joints or planing.
Then there is diet. The more carbs you eat the more insulin you need and the more chance of a mismatch and BSLs going too high or low.
Humulin M is a mixture of insulins. You cannot vary the dose to solve one trouble with blood sugar without affecting the other part of the 12 hours or so. I am assuming you are prescribed it for injection twice per day.
That is before breakfast and before dinner.
Below is a graph of how effective in lowering the blood sugar the Humulin M is over time. The higher the line is on the graph the more the effect on getting Blood sugar down. The following is a bit of guess work based on the Humulin M graph.
Each of us is a bit different in how insulin affects our blood sugars and when so this is also why the following is only a rough draft plan, so to speak. A guess only.
Mostly the blood sugar from a meal rises up to a maximum by about 2 hours after a meal.
You will notice that Humulin M taken just before, say breakfast, only reaches its maximum effect nearer 4 hours so it is late to the party. So you might discuss with your prescribing doctor whether you eat differently, or accept that your blood sugar might rise even higher than on the Novorapid x 3/Lantus x1 regime ? (Novorapid peaks in effect about the 2 to 3 hour mark).
The 4 hour peak of the morning Humulin M might subside slowly enough to see you through a small early lunch.
The other peak of the Humulin is smaller in lowering blood sugar and happens about 8 to 10 hours after injection. That completely misses lunch but might have some small effect for dinner at say 6 pm.
Now that might sound fine and dandy for dealing with daytime, what about the Humulin M taken before dinner? Blood sugars go up before the Humulin M can catch them (again). A dose injected at say 7 pm will peak in its blood-lowering effect about 11 pm when you are likely to be turning in for the night (unless you are a night owl like me)!!
Also that smaller 9 to 10 hours peak threatens to lower your blood sugar about 4 to 5 am. When asleep it is much more difficult to recognise a hypo or low blood sugar event. (and I can vouch for that)!!
Because we do not tend to dine in the middle of the night Humulin M is often prescribed at a smaller dose in the evening. That fits with most long-action part of insulins used in the evening.
If your doctor increases the evening dose of Humulin M3t o do something about that pesky high blood sugar after your evening meal all that might do is makes you more at risk of low blood sugars when you are trying to or are asleep.
I appreciate that @rochari has adapted back to older insulins but as he points out he has had to be careful with when and what he eats to cater for this change and there can be very little variation. I would bet (if I were a betting man) that he would be taking a supper to try and ward off low blood sugars at night. Certainly when I was on similar insulin way back that was a necessity !!
So I wish you well and I hope your doctor will work with you to get the blood sugars as good as possible.
As prescriber he has that responsibility.

View attachment 31581
 

RVyas

Newbie
Messages
3
My mother is on Humulin M3 40 units in the morning and 12 units in the evening. She states that she injects at 7:30 in the morning and 7:30 in the evening. When is the best times for her to eat her meals as I don't believe she is optimising the impact of the Insulin. Her Hb1ac is about 80 which is of concern.
 

rochari

Well-Known Member
Messages
154
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
RVyas, I've been on M3 for a long time and can only let you know how it works for me. Your mother's mileage may vary.

I take my first injection at 9am and the second 8pm. I've usually always maintained an 11 or 12 hour space between them although I've found it can be flexible if needed.

I eat 30 minutes after each injection (which if I remember correctly was the instruction given to me by the hospital). So, breakfast is 9.30am and always I have my lunch 4 hours later. Those times, for me, keep my sugar levels almost perfect. One thing your mother may know about (and felt!) is M3 also has a tendency to drop your sugar level around 7 hours after injection (at least for me it does). I always test around 4pm and usually am able to have a top-up snack. By 8pm my level is back to around 6 when I'm about to take my second injection of the day. Now I am retired I tend to be a late bedder so test before turning in and usually always have a snack then too. I know from experience that 8 hour dip also happens as I sleep.

For me, M3 keeps me stable but I feel it tends to suit folks who can have food at the same time each day. It definitely is not flexible. Also, I never have additional snacks throughout the day as the insulin isn't made to cope with those.

All in all the times I eat my meals suit me but I'm not sure about your mother. Does she wait 30 minutes after the injection before eating? Does she take 'extra' snacks during the day which the insulin may have difficulty dealing with? Perhaps a chat with the folks at her diabetic clinic may help her more.

Bill
 

RVyas

Newbie
Messages
3
RVyas, I've been on M3 for a long time and can only let you know how it works for me. Your mother's mileage may vary.

I take my first injection at 9am and the second 8pm. I've usually always maintained an 11 or 12 hour space between them although I've found it can be flexible if needed.

I eat 30 minutes after each injection (which if I remember correctly was the instruction given to me by the hospital). So, breakfast is 9.30am and always I have my lunch 4 hours later. Those times, for me, keep my sugar levels almost perfect. One thing your mother may know about (and felt!) is M3 also has a tendency to drop your sugar level around 7 hours after injection (at least for me it does). I always test around 4pm and usually am able to have a top-up snack. By 8pm my level is back to around 6 when I'm about to take my second injection of the day. Now I am retired I tend to be a late bedder so test before turning in and usually always have a snack then too. I know from experience that 8 hour dip also happens as I sleep.

For me, M3 keeps me stable but I feel it tends to suit folks who can have food at the same time each day. It definitely is not flexible. Also, I never have additional snacks throughout the day as the insulin isn't made to cope with those.

All in all the times I eat my meals suit me but I'm not sure about your mother. Does she wait 30 minutes after the injection before eating? Does she take 'extra' snacks during the day which the insulin may have difficulty dealing with? Perhaps a chat with the folks at her diabetic clinic may help her more.

Bill
Thanks Bill, Good info.
 

Lilylala

Well-Known Member
Messages
112
Hi I am on hm3 too and I use to wait 30 mins after my injection to eat , but last hospital visit with the professor Sampson at Norfolk and norwich told me this is too long as I am not optimising my quick acting insulin in the hm3 .He advised to take it either just before or just after.I have done my bs test at the same time and I have also done 2 hours after just to see if it's taken my bs down and to be honest my readings are lower now than previously injecting 30 mins before.I have 30 units at 8am then breakfast my bs is usually 7 , I find my bs is 5 at 7 pm when i inject another 30 units and have tea.I find my bs is 8 at bedtime 10 pm.I know everyone is different but this is my routeen and it works for me .
 

rochari

Well-Known Member
Messages
154
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
Lilylala, that's interesting but you're right, if your routine works for you then go for it! I know a lady who is on twice-a-day Novolog Mix 70/30 which I think is much the same as M3. As she is phobic about hypos she only takes the insulin 30 minutes AFTER breakfast and her evening meal. Her HbA1c is pretty impressive too! Bill