Keto vs LCHF

[vit90]

I don't test for ketones but I follow a very low carb diet and on many days the (sugar/starch but not fibre) carb count is below 20g and I'm on a calorie deficit too as I'm losing up to 2 pounds a week at present.

My general question is, are you susceptible to 'keto flu' if you don't quite keep the carbs under the threshold every day? Or is that only while initially going through keto-adaptation?

 

[bulkbiker]

I don't test for ketones but I follow a very low carb diet and on many days the (sugar/starch but not fibre) carb count is below 20g and I'm on a calorie deficit too as I'm losing up to 2 pounds a week at present.

My general question is, are you susceptible to 'keto flu' if you don't quite keep the carbs under the threshold every day? Or is that only while initially going through keto-adaptation?

When you say the sugar/starch not fibre count which figures are you including and whereabouts in the world are you based as reported values vary depending on location?

 

[Guzzler]

Carb flu aka keto flu is a temporary phase while your body is becoming keto adapted aka fat adapted. The human body doesn't like such big changes and complains and rebels loudly however not everyone gets keto flu. If you are already below 20g carbs per day (you don't say how long you have been keto) you are unlikely to suffer with these very short lived symptoms.

 

[vit90]

Carb flu aka keto flu is a temporary phase while your body is becoming keto adapted aka fat adapted. The human body doesn't like such big changes and complains and rebels loudly however not everyone gets keto flu. If you are already below 20g carbs per day (you don't say how long you have been keto) you are unlikely to suffer with these very short lived symptoms.

Been doing very low carb for 4 years but it's not possible to maintain this 100% every day. On some days it might be 40 or 50g.

 

[vit90]

Hm, the forum thinks I'm insulin-dependent. I'm not, never have been, Indeed I've never taken any meds. (Heads off to profile settings!)

 

[vit90]

Hm, the forum thinks I'm insulin-dependent. I'm not, never have been, Indeed I've never taken any meds. (Heads off to profile settings!)

Fixed that, no idea how that happened.

 

[vit90]

When you say the sugar/starch not fibre count which figures are you including and whereabouts in the world are you based as reported values vary depending on location?

When you say the sugar/starch not fibre count which figures are you including and whereabouts in the world are you based as reported values vary depending on location?

Sorry - my initial response go lost - this is what I wrote earlier:

I'm in the UK and I'm quite obsessive about finding nutritional data that separates non-digestible carbs from digestible starches and sugars.

 

[Member496333]

Remember that protein - to a far lesser extent of course - can necessarily elevate insulin in the less immediate term, and thus effect ketosis to some degree or other, particularly over time or even during the following day/s. Certainly it isn’t solely about carbohydrate. The likelihood of protein being a factor appears to vary greatly among individuals. For me it’s now not really a thing, but it was when my insulin sensitivity sucked. Basically insulin will limit or block ketosis irrespective of why it’s elevated (macros, stress, dawn phenomenon etc.) This could likely cause one to be teetering on the edge of ketosis and perhaps experiencing “the flu” unexpectedly.

Also I’d personally be wary of not considering fibre. In my experience, expecting fibre to cause no glucose load is somewhat hit & miss. In my view it can cause “creep” over time even if it may not measure as a postprandial spike. Again I suspect this will vary from person-to-person.

 

[Guzzler]

Been doing very low carb for 4 years but it's not possible to maintain this 100% every day. On some days it might be 40 or 50g.

I doubt that after 4 years you would be susceptible to carb flu. The only time I could see it happening to you is if you returned to a normal western diet and then went keto again. (Well done on your 4 years btw).

 

[Guzzler]

Fixed that, no idea how that happened.

It's a glitch with the software - not your bad.

 

[bulkbiker]

Sorry - my initial response go lost - this is what I wrote earlier:

I'm in the UK and I'm quite obsessive about finding nutritional data that separates non-digestible carbs from digestible starches and sugars.

OK have you checked out the McCance and Widowson tables? They are here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/composition-of-foods-integrated-dataset-cofid

so far as I know its what supermarkets should base their nutrition info on... some are better than others though
So you look at carb count just to be clear?

 

[vit90]

When you say the sugar/starch not fibre count which figures are you including and whereabouts in the world are you based as reported values vary depending on location?

When you say the sugar/starch not fibre count which figures are you including and whereabouts in the world are you based as reported values vary depending on location?

OK have you checked out the McCance and Widowson tables? They are here

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/composition-of-foods-integrated-dataset-cofid

so far as I know its what supermarkets should base their nutrition info on... some are better than others though
So you look at carb count just to be clear?

Not seen those before - will have a look, thanks. Yes I check carbs and calories mainly and try to be sure that the carb count doesn't include the fibre component.

 

[vit90]

I doubt that after 4 years you would be susceptible to carb flu. The only time I could see it happening to you is if you returned to a normal western diet and then went keto again. (Well done on your 4 years btw).

It's been easy for me. I cut out bread, biscuits, pasta, starchy and sugary veg and fruit and desserts overnight as well as switching to sweeteners, which I avoided like the plague until then. Cheese is my weakness, and was the main culprit behind my weight gain in the second half of last year. Now eat lots of salad, leafy green veg and nuts but do like my meat fish and eggs.

 

[vit90]

I doubt that after 4 years you would be susceptible to carb flu. The only time I could see it happening to you is if you returned to a normal western diet and then went keto again. (Well done on your 4 years btw).

I'm thinking of my wife too as she joins in the VLC partly to support me but also to lose some weight (she's not actually fat or diabetic though!). But of course she is far less focused on being low carb.

 

[bulkbiker]

Not seen those before - will have a look, thanks. Yes I check carbs and calories mainly and try to be sure that the carb count doesn't include the fibre component.

In the UK it never does... at least not that I have ever seen?

 

[vit90]

In the UK it never does... at least not that I have ever seen?

Usually not on packaged food but I do a lot of my own cooking and I have to be careful when looking up nutrient info for ingredients on the Internet.

 

[bulkbiker]

Usually not on packaged food but I do a lot of my own cooking and I have to be careful when looking up nutrient info for ingredients on the Internet.

Ah I see yes googling for something can be dangerous I'd use a reputable supermarket (personally I use Waitrose or Tesco for most non packaged stuff they are usually pretty ok) So long as its UK based then you should be ok.

 

[vit90]

Remember that protein - to a far lesser extent of course - can necessarily elevate insulin in the less immediate term, and thus effect ketosis to some degree or other, particularly over time or even during the following day/s. Certainly it isn’t solely about carbohydrate. The likelihood of protein being a factor appears to vary greatly among individuals. For me it’s now not really a thing, but it was when my insulin sensitivity sucked. Basically insulin will limit or block ketosis irrespective of why it’s elevated (macros, stress, dawn phenomenon etc.) This could likely cause one to be teetering on the edge of ketosis and perhaps experiencing “the flu” unexpectedly.

Also I’d personally be wary of not considering fibre. In my experience, expecting fibre to cause no glucose load is somewhat hit & miss. In my view it can cause “creep” over time even if it may not measure as a postprandial spike. Again I suspect this will vary from person-to-person.

Yes, this is a good point.

I use Samsung Health to track various things including my food. Last week, according to the app I averaged 93g of fat and 65g protein per day. Though do bear in mind I'm aiming to run a 1000 calorie a day weight-loss (2 pounds a week) deficit at the moment.

The app is not reliable for recording carb data as it often doesn't discriminate non-digestible carbs from digestible.

 

[vit90]

I've decided to start testing for keto, so after a bit of research I've ordered an inexpensive digital breath alcohol analyser. Cheaper ones use a semiconductor sensor that can't discriminate between alcohol and acetone. The latter is a metabolic by-product produced when you are in ketosis. The theory is that as long as you haven't been knocking back the pints or glasses of wine, etc., if there is a positive result, then you must be in ketosis There are lots of anecdotes that it works though some meters are better than others. Mine arrives later today, I'll post my experience with it.

 

[vit90]

So my cheap digital alcohol breathalyser has arrived and I have been playing with it. I'm not yet fully up to speed but initial results would suggest that I'm positive for ketosis but not for full-on 'therapeutic' ketosis. This might be because last night's supper had lentils in it and I used balsamic vinegar on my green salad at lunch, and this has a bit of sugar in it. Breakfast only had a few carbs from a home made milk kefir and frozen mixed berries smoothie (8-9g max sugars). More on the new toy later!