Hyper's on Keto Diet?

[Micks Grill]

I'll try and be as brief as possible.
I was diagnosed as T2 around 5 years ago and went straight onto Metformin.
However , for 25 years prior to that the GP now recons I was MIS diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - my symptoms for all that time were apparently "Hypers" as I was "borderline diabetic"?. I recieved no treatment or advice whatsoever for the supposed CFS - spent half my life in bed, with extreme fatigue, brain fog and the nasty taste in my mouth.

For the first 2 years of my T2 diagnosis I mauntained a level weight, ate and excersised as well as I could and my bloods were averaging 7's , for some unknown reason my sugars began to rise - I tried to eat less and excersise more - which worked for a while but then the sugars went up again. A year ago I was also given Gliziacide - my sugars have been "perfect" according to my GP ever since.

After gaining weight and not being able to shift it I developed a bad back (sciatica) and in turn Achillies Tendonitis in both ankles (they feel like they are constantly being hacked at with a knife) , between the two issues I basically found (and still find) even walking to the end of the road extremly painful - have tried all the prescibed pain meds, CBD , physio, stretches etc with no relief - the consoltant for my back said they cant operate as my BMI is too high , the ankle consultant has just begun prolotherapy (injecting Dextrose into the tendons " This creates a short duration of inflammation and stimulates the immune system's own healing mechanism to produce collagen and cartilage".) - to date it has had no affect.

Two months ago I decided obviously that to reduce the pain in my back, leg (sciatic nerve) and both ankles a reduction in weight would help - not being able to excercise (even swimming hurts) I decided to onto go Keto (literally nothing but meat, fish, eggs and cheese - as I have always suffered from Botanophobia (fear of plants) and Lachanophobia (fear of vegatables - yes I know it is ridiculous , been like it since I was 4, they can't fix it) the Keto Diet was the obvious choice - and I am loving it, everything I eat I really enjoy, am hungry less often and my bloods are a steady 4 to 5. I have not lost any weight though???

But here's the rub, a week into the diet I began experiencing the same symptoms I had with the presummed diagnosis of Chronic Fatigue, which to all intents and purpose are the same as a Hyper ?? (constant fatigue, extreme thirst, brain fog , consant urintion, bad taste etc) which has baffled me - if anything , with sugars around 4 , I should be suffering from LOW sugar between meals - these symptoms are also apparently a product of going into Ketosis - they call it "Keto Flu" and it should last a week as your body adapts to low/no Carbs.

If anyone could shed any light on any of this I would be very greatful as I desperately need to lose weight (its a Catch 22 for me - less weight =less pain, but cant excercise because of the pain it causes), On top of all this I am Stage 2 COPD , although I am still pretty healthy breathing wise - work full time (standing around as a Doorman) but I need to be fit enough to excercise to keep my lungs open as much as possible.

Thanks for listening - please come back to me if you have any ideas?

M

p.s : Could it be posible that "normal" blood sugar ranges for T2 may not always be between 4 and 8 and my "normal" is lower?

 

[Winnie53]

This is just a guess, but with the ketogenic diet, there are three mineral deficiencies that can become problematic: sodium, potassium, magnesium...

https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto/supplements

Here's additional symptoms for potassium deficiency...

Usually symptoms of low potassium are mild. At times the effects of low potassium can be vague. There may be more than one symptom involving the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, kidneys, muscles, heart, and nerves.

• Weakness, tiredness, or cramping in arm or leg muscles, sometimes severe enough to cause inability to move arms or legs due to weakness (much like a paralysis)
• Tingling or numbness
• Nausea or vomiting
• Abdominal cramping, bloating
• Constipation
• Palpitations (feeling your heart beat irregularly)
• Passing large amounts of urine or feeling thirsty most of the time
• Fainting due to low blood pressure
• Abnormal psychological behavior: depression, psychosis, delirium, confusion, or hallucinations.

https://www.emedicinehealth.com/low_potassium/article_em.htm#low_potassium_symptoms

Can you eat fruit? Avocado is a fruit and is a good source of potassium.

What medications and/or insulin are you using? What nutritional supplements are you taking? What has been the range of your glucose levels today/yesterday?

You could have keto flu. When I have it, I feel wiped out, like I'm coming down with a cold or flu. I feel exhausted. I don't feel like doing anything.

The first time I followed the keto diet, I lost 26 pounds. That was 4 years ago. Losing weight is harder now. I've been using intermittent fasting (also referred to as time restricted eating), and fasting, as described by Canadian nephrologist Jason Fung, M.D. He has three books. Look him up on Amazon. He also is on YouTube.

Might be a good idea to call your doctor in the morning.

 

[Winnie53]

You might also find this article interesting...

https://www.bloodsugar101.com/diabetic-tendon-problems

We're similar in age. I crossed over into type 2 diabetes in 2005, and started the low carb ketogenic diet in 2015. 5 or 6 years ago, I injured my Achilles tendon walking across the room and ended up in a boot for 3 weeks with limited physical therapy. A little more than 2 years ago, I developed frozen shoulder. Not fun. Sorry you're going through this. It's really painful.

 

[JoKalsbeek]

I'll try and be as brief as possible.

M

p.s : Could it be posible that "normal" blood sugar ranges for T2 may not always be between 4 and 8 and my "normal" is lower?

So, if you have keto flu, it should've been gone a month in. I do think you may be deficient elsewhere, with the lack of veggies and such. There's a load of reasons why people don't eat certain foods though, so you'll get no grief from me on that. And since there's such a thing as the carnivorous diet, you should be able to do without vegetables entirely.... Are you eating organ meat? It's got a whole lot of nutrients you don't find in other cuts. (Liver's excellent). It could be worth getting checked for deficiencies, as brain fog and fatigue also come about with Vit D deficiency and a whole lot of other issues. (Are you okay with fatty fish? Lot of D in that, if taking in some sun isn't going to cut it). Foul taste in the mouth may be due to ketosis, I know my breath's turned rather acetone-ish. And when you cut out carbs almost entirely, you urinate a lot because carbs hold on to water, and with no carbs, the water goes right out the window (or rather, out something else) too. There's a bunch of explanations, but you really do want to get your bloods checked for deficiencies in Vit D, magnesium, Vit B, potassium, etc... And maybe get your thyroidfunction checked. You wouldn't be the first T2 with thyroid issues. Be a dog with a bone with this, because you really need to know what's up. And if you're deficient somewhere, there's always supplements to get back on an even keel; no plants required.

You might also look into intermittent fasting, which goes well with keto. My weight loss stalled until I had a narrow window in which I ate. (Meaning I skipped breakfast and held off having lunch as long as possible. Sometimes that means having only one meal a day, just dinner.). In any case... Get the bloodwork done. Go from there.

Good luck!
Jo
Edited to add: @Fruitella is right, glic and IF don't mix. I'm so sorry, really dropped the ball there!

 

[Fruitella]

Fasting while on gliclazide is not a good idea. The OP may want to check with GP to see if the meds are stalling the weight loss.

 

[DCUKMod]

Hello there Micks Grill. It certainly seems you've been through the mill a bit in recent years.

I don't know when you last had a full blood panel done, including a vitamin and hormone panel. If you have eaten a restricted diet for some time (and you phobias sound like you will have), it is possible you are running deficient in something. A goodly proportion of the UK general population is deficient in Vitamin D, and as for your hormones, it'd be worthwhile checking out your thyroid efficiency. Our thyroid is at the centre of our metabolic health and those whose thyroids are a bit wonky can find they gain weight and find great difficulty shifting it. One of the potential side effects of Gliclazide is also weight gain.

It sounds like, having started Keto, you are enjoying it as a way of eating. If that switch was a significant change in your eating, then you should let your doctor know as Gliclazide pushes your blood sugars down. At least you appear to be testing, so where are your lower numbers coming in these days?

My metabolism sounds very different to yours, so I won't bleat on about what I do, but it could be helpful if you would help us understand what you're actually eating in your keto plan. If you could give an idea of what you're eating and the amounts we might be able to offer up some tweaks.

For many on keto, they have no need to think about calories, provided they keep the carbs down, but that isn't the case for everyone. Some need to keep an eye on quantities too.

 

[Brunneria]

Hi @Micks Grill and welcome!

Come and join us over on the Carnivore Corner thread
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/carnivore-corner.164920/

If plants aren't your thing, then suggesting you eat them for nutrition is never going to be sustainable.
So I suggest that you do a bit of thinking of ways to make sure that you are getting all your nutrients from animal sources.
In my case, I am both carnivore and have malabsorption due to my guts just being unobliging after a few gut issues. So I got myself an App called cronometer which allowed me to track my daily intake, including vits and mins. Very informative!

Turned out I was eating plenty of nutrients, but my body was still ending up deficient in a few key ones (namely magnesium, potassium, D3, K2, B12 and folate). So I now supplement them too. I also add in a little Vit C for good measureWhat a difference! Whenever I forget them for a few days, the old symptoms come back - aches, pains, lethargy, bad sleep, etc.

Obviously, I can't say that you have the same issues, but I suggest you get a hold of a nutrient tracker (cronometer is free) and get tracking. Then do some reading on the symptoms of the different deficiencies.

Organ meat, especially liver, is a powerhouse superfood. Doesn't have to be slabs on a plate. Can be liver pate, or steak and liver, or even soup. I do a mean offal soup with liver, hearts and kidneys - and yes, it tastes delicious - just like a steak and kidney pie.

 

[Brunneria]

One other thing... you are concerned about experiencing hypers when carnivore, and on your current regime.

In all seriousness, the ONLY way you can check whether this concern is valid, or whether your symptoms are due to another cause is by testing your blood glucose while you are experiencing the symptoms.

If you don't have the testing equipment, and the NHS is unwilling to provide it for most T2s, then I strongly urge you to self fund. It is a fabulous education in managing your condition, and I find it extremely reassuring to know that my dietary choices are having the effect that I intend.

If you need to self-fund, then the best value test strips and meters in the UK are (as I understand it) the Tee2 and the Codefree. Last time I checked, both were available on Amazon, or could be found via a google search.

Hope that helps!

 

[Micks Grill]

WOW - So much info and support - Thank you All

Luckily I have an appointment with my GP in an hour so I have printed this whole thread and will make a checklist on the bus - I really think I am lacking in vital Minerals and Vits - it makes senses and I will be discussing supplements.

Then I have to work tonight so I will respond to you all overnight.

Thank you all once again for everything.

M

 

[Micks Grill]

Hi All.

Thank you again for all the help - and sorry fr the delay in replying. I had a shot in my ankle which was extreemly painful after the anesthetic wore off - just feeling a little better now.

My visit to my GP (who is very good) was as far as I know friutfull - he totally agreed that the Gliziacide would most likely be the cause of the lack of weight loss and te fatigue and told me to drop it. He sent me for bloods including all minerals, thyroid . hbca1 etc and told me to continue with the Keto - when the bloods are returned he will know what , if any vits and mins I am lacking. Must admit since stopping the Gliciacide the fatigue symptoms have been less daily.

My bloods are fluctating between 4.3 and 6.8 (prior to this week they were 4.2/ 5.1) and it does seem the "Gliz" was the culprit. He told me to carry on like this - he will call me with the blood rsults and go from there. He also said that if I maintain healthy blood levels through Keto but still dont loose weight he will prescribe Orlistat (he wanted to avoid that if possible) - so to date - I am positive.

My ankles / back despertely need some of the weight taken off them , I am not too confident with the Prolotherapy and really dont want to go down the steroid or operation (stiches and 8 weeks in a boot) road so fingers crossed.

I'll keep you all posted.

All best wishes to you all.

M

 

[Micks Grill]

This is just a guess, but with the ketogenic diet, there are three mineral deficiencies that can become problematic: sodium, potassium, magnesium...

https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/keto/supplements

Here's additional symptoms for potassium deficiency...

Usually symptoms of low potassium are mild. At times the effects of low potassium can be vague. There may be more than one symptom involving the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, kidneys, muscles, heart, and nerves.

Can you eat fruit? Avocado is a fruit and is a good source of potassium.

What medications and/or insulin are you using? What nutritional supplements are you taking? What has been the range of your glucose levels today/yesterday?

You could have keto flu. When I have it, I feel wiped out, like I'm coming down with a cold or flu. I feel exhausted. I don't feel like doing anything.

The first time I followed the keto diet, I lost 26 pounds. That was 4 years ago. Losing weight is harder now. I've been using intermittent fasting (also referred to as time restricted eating), and fasting, as described by Canadian nephrologist Jason Fung, M.D. He has three books. Look him up on Amazon. He also is on YouTube.

Might be a good idea to call your doctor in the morning.

Thanks Winnie 53.

Sadlyfruit is a plant to me , I know it is ridiculous but I cant.
My GP is aware of my phobias and has often sad that as my body has never been used to frut and veg it has adapted itself - I do believe that as the only vit I have ever lacked was Vit D (2 years ago) due to working nights, sleeping days and not getting any sunlight - I make a point of doing so daily now.

Waiting on bloods now.

All the best and thanks.

M

 

[Micks Grill]

Hi @Micks Grill and welcome!

Come and join us over on the Carnivore Corner thread
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/carnivore-corner.164920/

If plants aren't your thing, then suggesting you eat them for nutrition is never going to be sustainable.
So I suggest that you do a bit of thinking of ways to make sure that you are getting all your nutrients from animal sources.
In my case, I am both carnivore and have malabsorption due to my guts just being unobliging after a few gut issues. So I got myself an App called cronometer which allowed me to track my daily intake, including vits and mins. Very informative!

Organ meat, especially liver, is a powerhouse superfood. Doesn't have to be slabs on a plate. Can be liver pate, or steak and liver, or even soup. I do a mean offal soup with liver, hearts and kidneys - and yes, it tastes delicious - just like a steak and kidney pie.

Hi Brunneria.

Thank you for all the advice - certainly will look into the Cronometer App and at what I am lacking.

Fortunately I LOVE Liver and Kidneys and eat them regularly

Best wishes.

M

 

[Micks Grill]

One other thing... you are concerned about experiencing hypers when carnivore, and on your current regime.

In all seriousness, the ONLY way you can check whether this concern is valid, or whether your symptoms are due to another cause is by testing your blood glucose while you are experiencing the symptoms.

If you don't have the testing equipment, and the NHS is unwilling to provide it for most T2s, then I strongly urge you to self fund. It is a fabulous education in managing your condition, and I find it extremely reassuring to know that my dietary choices are having the effect that I intend.

If you need to self-fund, then the best value test strips and meters in the UK are (as I understand it) the Tee2 and the Codefree. Last time I checked, both were available on Amazon, or could be found via a google search.

Fortunately I test often - I have a Pura X My Life and keep a good eye on my bloods

Hope that helps!

 

[Fruitella]

Hi @Micks Grill and welcome!

Come and join us over on the Carnivore Corner thread
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/carnivore-corner.164920/

If plants aren't your thing, then suggesting you eat them for nutrition is never going to be sustainable.
So I suggest that you do a bit of thinking of ways to make sure that you are getting all your nutrients from animal sources.
In my case, I am both carnivore and have malabsorption due to my guts just being unobliging after a few gut issues. So I got myself an App called cronometer which allowed me to track my daily intake, including vits and mins. Very informative!

Turned out I was eating plenty of nutrients, but my body was still ending up deficient in a few key ones (namely magnesium, potassium, D3, K2, B12 and folate). So I now supplement them too. I also add in a little Vit C for good measureWhat a difference! Whenever I forget them for a few days, the old symptoms come back - aches, pains, lethargy, bad sleep, etc.

Obviously, I can't say that you have the same issues, but I suggest you get a hold of a nutrient tracker (cronometer is free) and get tracking. Then do some reading on the symptoms of the different deficiencies.

Organ meat, especially liver, is a powerhouse superfood. Doesn't have to be slabs on a plate. Can be liver pate, or steak and liver, or even soup. I do a mean offal soup with liver, hearts and kidneys - and yes, it tastes delicious - just like a steak and kidney pie.

Hi, if you like the cooked chicken bargains, Iceland do a kilo bag for £5. I throw a frozen handful into some salad bits and keeps it all chilled for quite a while - handy for a family picnic in the sunshine yesterday.

 

[Micks Grill]

Ok folks , bloods are back and with the exception of Vitmin D (I work nights) EVERYTHING was "perfect" so see you later Gliziacide - Hbca1 averaged 46. GP was very happy.

So bumping up the fish and eggs , will see if my weight has dropped in two weeks (second ankle is showing some improvement ) and if the little excerise I am now doing isnt cutting it - I'll give the Orlistat a go - but if I can be more mobile and have more energy it may not be needed.

Without doubt the fatigue was caused by Gliziacide -v- Keto , fatigue is now reducing daily so it looks all positive.

Thanks to you all - I will keep you posted.

All the best.

Miles of Smiles

M.

 

[Lamont D]

Hi,
Having been on a Keto diet for about five years now, I found that you have to get the balance of protein, good fats you can tolerate right.
I too have an unusual aversion to cooked vegetables, I can and do eat salad vegetables, but I'm very picky, if I don't like something then no-one is going to force me to try it. I have an intolerance to many foods such as potatoes, grains and most carby, starchy foods, sugar in most forms except little pieces of fruit.
I have had to organise my life around what I can eat and my working life, full time like yourself, and I worked nights for thirty years. Long hours, intense and demanding.
Intermittent fasting has really helped me, not worrying about breakfast or other means, is quite liberating. You don't have to have definitive meal times.
Just eat regularly enough to satisfy your nutritional needs.

The Keto diet is sustainable, how we do it is personal and has to be tailored to our own preferences and of course what we like eating.

Best wishes

 

[bulkbiker]

Orlistat (he wanted to avoid that if possible)

So do you unless you want to enjoy disaster pants..!

 

[ianf0ster]

Ok folks , bloods are back and with the exception of Vitmin D (I work nights) EVERYTHING was "perfect" so see you later Gliziacide - Hbca1 averaged 46. GP was very happy.

So bumping up the fish and eggs , will see if my weight has dropped in two weeks (second ankle is showing some improvement ) and if the little excerise I am now doing isnt cutting it - I'll give the Orlistat a go - but if I can be more mobile and have more energy it may not be needed.

Without doubt the fatigue was caused by Gliziacide -v- Keto , fatigue is now reducing daily so it looks all positive.

Thanks to you all - I will keep you posted.

All the best.

Miles of Smiles

M.

That's great, another success story!

 

[Micks Grill]

Ok. So a week or so on - strictly Keto , no Gliziacide and average bloods of 5.2, STILL fatigued to the max, bad taste etc.

Scratching my head now as I know all bloods, vits and mins are fine.

Never took the Orlistat due to the horror stories (doesnt seem to make sense on Keto) so back to square one - and still no weight loss

Getting the hump now.

 

[JoKalsbeek]

Barely dare ask, but muscles are heavier in mass than fats... Could you be losing fat and gaining muscles? Your bloods are alright, sugar and in other terms... Hmm... Right now I'm rediculously fatigued myself due to an onslaught of stress and tension of late. It has a rather phydical impact. I dunno, just thinking out loud. You been sleeping alright?

Hope you'll find out what's up soon!
Jo

Ok. So a week or so on - strictly Keto , no Gliziacide and average bloods of 5.2, STILL fatigued to the max, bad taste etc.

Scratching my head now as I know all bloods, vits and mins are fine.

Never took the Orlistat due to the horror stories (doesnt seem to make sense on Keto) so back to square one - and still no weight loss

Getting the hump now.