TMAO, heart disease, red meat etc

[velofan]

As someone who moved on to a low-carb diet earlier this year, I've been readng round a bit more than previously, and have started coming across reports of studies that suggest that the link between red meat and heart disease remains - not through saturated fat, but through its involvement in the production of TMAO, and TMAO's link with increased atherosclerosis and other heart disease issues. I've done a search, but TMAO seems to have barely been discussed on these forums, so wondering if anybody else had been taking a look at this. Apparently red wine and olive oil can help in keeping TMAO levels down - so it seems like similar arguments and players as in previous debates over food and heart disease, 'just' with a different villain?

 

[bulkbiker]

Another of the great fallacies like cholesterol probably.. it's "bad" when elevated TMAO comes from red meat but "beneficial" when elevated TMAO is from fish and vegetables? Hmmm....

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/11/181106073239.htm

 

[Member496333]

In my opinion it’s just more rubbish designed to confuse and divide. I mean eating what you are already made of kills you? Sure. Ok.

 

[Mbaker]

It is like saying the Boeing 737 has been dangerous throughout its history because Mickey Mouse says so.

We can obviously look back at time lines, we can look at previous populations, we can look at indigenous populations and we can look at cohorts across the globe who are effectively in collective n of 1 trials - that would be those who have reversed their Type 2 on this site, Dr Unwins patients, Dr Westmans, Virta Health and so on. The majority would be red meat eaters just by the statistics. The Mods have said they are gonna come down hard on certain posts; the problem is if we provide further information, it inevitably critiques the usual suspects. It is not meat eaters who put out this thrash.

 

[lucylocket61]

Honest question:

from the link it seems to be saying that TMAO's are good for heart health, and also bad at the same time? Can anyone give me the one-syllable info please?

 

[Rustytypin]

May not be one syllable, my reply is ignore.

 

[Mbaker]

Honest question:

from the link it seems to be saying that TMAO's are good for heart health, and also bad at the same time? Can anyone give me the one-syllable info please?

The funny thing is that TMAO is present in plants also. This is all the same as calcium i.e. in the wrong context calcium is deadly, however it is required to be healthy, the same for blood glucose, insulin and the like. Similarly IGF1 being high in a person with cancer is the worst scenario, in a healthy individual no problem, especially someone wanting to put on muscle mass. It is just desperate, desperate, desperate.

Next they will say because red meat is "red" in colour, so it is bad for you because red can be associated with evil.

 

[Tophat1900]

It is like saying the Boeing 737 has been dangerous throughout its history because Mickey Mouse says so.

We can obviously look back at time lines, we can look at previous populations, we can look at indigenous populations and we can look at cohorts across the globe who are effectively in collective n of 1 trials - that would be those who have reversed their Type 2 on this site, Dr Unwins patients, Dr Westmans, Virta Health and so on. The majority would be red meat eaters just by the statistics. The Mods have said they are gonna come down hard on certain posts; the problem is if we provide further information, it inevitably critiques the usual suspects. It is not meat eaters who put out this thrash.

You can say that again....

 

[Oldvatr]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6213249/

The thing I note is that the report uses words like is evidenced by, it is also hypothesised that... So it is from a prospective study and it cannot be considered proof of causality, We do not know what the evidence was from the trial data, only this summary document, so cannot take any judgement on whether this study is based on valid evidence or not, It is drawing conclusions using big words etc, and smacks of being a submission for a Masters degree dissertation or thesis.

It also takes as a baseline given that red meat causes cancer, which is not actually proven yet, and uses that belief as justification for what is in this report, so starts with a hypothesis that is not theirs already in the bank.

One comment, TMAO is measured in urine output and is greatly affected by kidney function. and efficiency. This is a confounder to previous trials being rejected since measuring those parameters in vivo is difficult,

 

[Brunneria]

A post has been deleted as it breached the forum rules. Please be on-topic, polite and tolerant of other's choices. Further Mod intervention could lead to thread bans, warnings or other sanctions.

Where you see a post that offends, please report it IMMEDIATELY.

 

[Goonergal]

A post has been deleted as it breached the forum rules. Please be on-topic, polite and tolerant of other's choices. Further Mod intervention could lead to thread bans, warnings or other sanctions.

Where you see a post that offends, please report it IMMEDIATELY.

 

[TriciaWs]

This analysis suggests that is is the balance of gut bacteria rather than diet that affects 'bad' TMAO levels:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6213249/
of course diet affects the gut bacteria types but the relationship is not simple.

 

[Winnie53]

I've been ignoring the TMAO commentary because beef is a high quality source of protein, fat, and nutrients. I was somewhat reassured when I heard Steven Gundry, MD share that red wine, balsamic vinegar, and olive oil prevent gut bacteria from making TMAO out of choline and carnitine.

At 23:51 minutes, they begin an interesting discussion about the Mediterranean diet - (please note that Dave Asprey can't eat nightshade vegetables, which eliminates a lot of dishes that he wishes he could eat). At 26:44 minutes, he discusses TMAO...