Dr Jason Fung mauled by impeccable logic of Calorie Restriction fans...

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zand

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Ah I didn’t realise our new members were nutritionists and personal trainers. Looks like we got it all wrong, guys. Can’t believe I was duped by Dr. Fung all this time. If only I’d listened to expert opinion instead :(
I have been to a nutritionist. She advised me to replace my dairy intake with soy. I did. I gained weight. Next I went to a naturopath who did tests and told me that soya was bad for my thyroid.
 
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Oops, it was actually Zoe Harcombe...

Public Lecture Series: 'The Obesity Epidemic' - Zoë Harcombe.

She tackles the topic at the beginning of her lecture.

This will be met with derision. Harcombe is viewed by the CICO evangelists as a quack, alongside Fung, Taubes, and anyone else who happens to disagree with “the experts” :D
 
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I have been to a nutritionist. She advised me to replace my dairy intake with soy. I did. I gained weight. Next I went to a naturopath who did tests and told me that soya was bad for my thyroid.

Please don’t get me started on soy. I don’t want to grow boobs, but that’s another discussion :D
 

Brunneria

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This will be met with derision. Harcombe is viewed by the CICO evangelists as a quack, alongside Fung, Taubes, and anyone else who happens to disagree with “the experts” :D

Yes, there is nothing more confirmatory than confirmation bias, is there?

Although of course that works in any direction that confirmation bias can take you...
 

Tophat1900

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Well, I have to disagree with you Jim. ;)

I discovered long ago that there is no one - absolutely no one who is an expert in me and my endocrinologolically challenged - except myself, of course. I now live in a happy zone building a wall to keep out the Expert stuff that doesn’t work for me.

If only I had discovered this earlier, then I wouldn’t be in the physical condition I now am.

All those expert pearls of wisdom that turned out to be corrosive stink bombs... eat less, move more, CICO, all you need is willpower, if I can do it then anyone can, go for the burn...

Nowadays I require a great deal more from an Expert than numerous repetitions of ‘I am an Expert. I am right and you are wrong - so stop arguing and do what I tell you!’

That's my position also, I know what works for me and keeps me stable and where I want to be. And quite a bit of that is by ignoring conventional expert advice, it takes time to figure out your own personal jigsaw. And it's not one single thing that does it, it's a multitude of things learned (Usually the hard way). A lot of trialing and testing. People pushing CICO or any one method (Low fat etc) as the be all end all of your problems usually have a financial incentive to do so. So you are given flawed, biased opinion at times.
 
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Dark Horse

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which indicates that CICO doesnt work for all.
Again, I think part of the problem is that people here using the term CICO to mean the low-calorie approach to weight-loss. They are using 'calories in' to mean the calories on the plate wher
Often they involve eating more calories.
Very interesting - have you got any links to studies which show this?
 
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Brunneria

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That's my position also, I know what works for me and keeps me stable and where I want to be. And quite a bit of that is by ignoring conventional expert advice, it takes time to figure out your own personal jigsaw. And it's not one single thing that does it, it's a multitude of things learned (Usually the hard way). A lot of trialing and testing. People pushing CICO or any one method (Low fat etc) as the be all end all of your problems usually have a financial incentive to do so. So you are given flawed, biased opinion at times.

Absolutely.
And those same Experts have a huge disadvantage. For all their knowledge, they can only spend a few minutes, and a few appointments with me, whereas I have been living with my body, and seen the havoc that certain advice causes, in a very immediate and personal way. On a full time and daily basis, too.
 

Tophat1900

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Absolutely.
And those same Experts have a huge disadvantage. For all their knowledge, they can only spend a few minutes, and a few appointments with me, whereas I have been living with my body, and seen the havoc that certain advice causes, in a very immediate and personal way. On a full time and daily basis, too.

Yes, and unfortunately that's where expert advice can lag behind the times. They don't have the time to sit and research like we do. I've sat at appts and been dismissed by experts before I can even finish explaining something to them. Yet, they asked what I was doing to get such good results. And then don't want to hear it because it goes against what they have been taught or believe.

Ah well, do what works I say. That is the key.
 

Richard'63

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What's the nutritionists equivalent of "Mansplaining" because you've just done it...

And if obesity is a symptom and not a cause?

"And if obesity is a symptom and not a cause?"
Then Professor Taylor's experiment would not have worked.
 

Brunneria

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"And if obesity is a symptom and not a cause?"
Then Professor Taylor's experiment would not have worked.

I disagree.
The obesity is a symptom of insulin resistance (for many, but not all of us).
There are many reasons for insulin resistance, and many reasons for obesity, which go far beyond fat in the liver and pancreas - and the Newcastle Diet only addresses a narrow range of those.
 
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jpscloud

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Of course I'll lose weight if I eat one chocolate bar a day, or one potato or whatever. I am not disputing that a calorie deficit causes weight loss, but I am disputing that CICO is an effective attitude to hold, particularly from healthcare providers who, if they haven't experienced hormonally driven weight gain themselves, can be inclined to dismiss weight gainers as greedy, weak, poorly educated on nutrition, etc.
 

zand

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Of course I'll lose weight if I eat one chocolate bar a day, or one potato or whatever. I am not disputing that a calorie deficit causes weight loss, but I am disputing that CICO is an effective attitude to hold, particularly from healthcare providers who, if they haven't experienced hormonally driven weight gain themselves, can be inclined to dismiss weight gainers as greedy, weak, poorly educated on nutrition, etc.
Then when the weight gainers find something that works for them such as LCHF or keto then the HCPs assume that we are at last following their instructions to eat less and move more. I have tried to talk about what works for me as it may help them to understand others but most of them just aren't interested.
 
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zand

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I disagree.
The obesity is a symptom of insulin resistance (for many, but not all of us).
There are many reasons for insulin resistance, and many reasons for obesity, which go far beyond fat in the liver and pancreas - and the Newcastle Diet only addresses a narrow range of those.
Yes I began to get insulin resistant when I was 30 ish. I didn't have health problems (except for the weight gain) until I was 51. I wasn't diagnosed T2 until I was 53
 
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bulkbiker

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"And if obesity is a symptom and not a cause?"
Then Professor Taylor's experiment would not have worked.
Not really... Prof Taylor's experiments are on the removal of visceral rather than plain old subcutaneous body fat.
And "works" is a relative term.. over time the method seems to become less effective as the recent 24 month results release seems to show.
 
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jpscloud

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To be fair I think any weight loss protocol will "work" at least in the short term, but I was looking for, and found, a health promoting weight loss protocol that works for people with metabolic disease.

Homeostasis, I.e. the body adjusting metabolism and appetite to keep current weight stable (even if that is an unhealthy weight) is another reason I don't recognise a purely CICO based approach/belief as effective long term.

LCHF with intermittent fasting is an approach that not only proves effective for many people long term for weight control but also can mitigate that yoyo effect where people end up gaining more than they lost each time they do a CICO based diet.

Of course calorie surplus and deficit count - it's just the promotion of CICO as a cure for my metabolic disease I won't accept.
 
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I think forty years of CICO have proven that it doesn’t work as a sustainable weight loss intervention. I don’t know a single person who tried a fad CICO diet who, two years later, weighs less than when they started. Most are heavier. I’m sure it’s the dieters’ fault though...I mean...thermodynamics, bro!

;)
 

Guzzler

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Poor grammar, bullying and drunks.
Genuine question, do they weigh coma patients to check that the calories in correspond to the calories out? Are calculations wrt to nutrients based solely on weight, gender and age etc?
 
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jpscloud

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No it is not. But if carbs are driving obesity why the continued upward trend?

If you look at the data on added consumption of calories to American diets they are eating about 500kcal more per day than they were in 1970 and the bulk of that is from addes dietary fats...

The quality of those dietary fats is questionable though - industrial seed oils and corn oils, suitably cheap and ubiquitous in processed foods, are now thought to be inflammatory.

In that sense, increased dietary calories from fat could well contribute to obesity. Good quality, non-inflammatory fats are virtually absent from a diet high in processed foods, and again, a calorie from one is not the same as a calorie from the other.
 

Larissima

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I wish people would stop worshipping laws of thermodynamics as if they were God Almighty. Thermodynamics is a branch of physics that explains what happens in closed systems. The human body is an open system,interacting at numerous levels (biological, chemical, electromagnetic, even quantum for what we know) with the outer and inner environment. I don't really care if you're a believer in CICO, but don't misuse and misapply laws of physics!
 
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