Dr Jason Fung mauled by impeccable logic of Calorie Restriction fans...

[ATZ]

No, I actually doubled my calories, but I didn't bother to mention it as they are irrelevant in my case.

You would still have been in an overall caloric deficit.

 

[jjraak]

Oh my, someone who overate junk got fat and ill? Shock!

how about the guy who proved supersize me was nothing more than "junk" science? Eating McDonald's for 6 months straight, losing weigh and in the process improving all his health parameters?

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-lose-weight-eating-only-mcdonalds-2015-10

Overeating any food will make you fat and ill.

mmhh.

have you listened or read anything over the course of this post.?

we are individuals, with individual characteristics, and responses to allergies, our environment and other stimuli.
some of us do not fit into your tightly reined world.
regardless of what 'science' says we must.

Doctors say we 'must' as well, all based on their version of 'science'
yet here many of us on here sit right now, with better health then if we listened to those who KNOW best.
go figure.

so...
# overeating any food will make you fat and ill...agree

# We are/Were fat and ill BECAUSE we were eating the wrong food.....i agree, do you ?

Simple question.

As a fellow diabetic i'd be interested in knowing have YOU managed to just eat less calories REGARDLESS of the Carb content, and still lose weight, and keep your diabetes under good control.?

if so, what was your weight at DX and what do you weigh now.
and what was your HBA1c reading at DX, and how well have you managed to lower it at your latest HBA1c reading.

 

[ATZ]

So, an anecdote quoted by you is science but one from me is worthy of dismissal?

I posted the anecdotes as you all seem to love them here. I've plenty of well controlled studies that back up my stance on calorie intake being the key to fat/weigth loss or gain.

People love a scape goat.

Fat in the 70s and 80s

Carbs in the 90s

Sugar more recently.

Nearly all of people's weight problems can be explained by eating too much rather than one singular food or macronutrient.

Edited by moderator to remove sniping comment

 

[dawnmc]

@HSSS did you read the link about the Kempner diet I posted earlier?

A diet high in carbs that was hugely effective for treating overweight diabetics. You do not need special treatment to lose weight.

could you tell me why when on Michael Mosley 800 cal a day diet for 7 weeks, I didn't lose a lb. I was religious about it logging every bit of food. And I was exercising, still not lost a lb.

 

[Guzzler]

Did you actually read the link?

Hall repeated the low carb trial (140g pf carbs per day) with a ketogenic trial.

No difference in results.

If I have 140g of carbs per day three things are going to happen. The first thing is that my blood glucose levels would hit the roof (I would have to swap out some fats and maybe even some protein to fit in all those carbs and would probably start snacking again because carbs are not satiating), the second thing is that I would gain weight because of hyperinsulinaemia and the third would be a visit to a nurse or doctor to pick up a prescription for an SGLT2i or DPP4 with Insulin a probable option. Why would these things happen? Coz I have Insulin Resistant Type 2 Diabetes.

 

[Resurgam]

You would still have been in an overall caloric deficit.

Well - I suppose that now I go to Longsword on Mondays, Cotswold morris on Wednesdays, Border morris on Thursdays and travel to fetes and festivals at the weekends and get invited out on my spare evenings I should now be losing weight - but I am not - I lost all the weight at the start of the process, and have been the same weight for almost two years now. I have become smaller in volume though and needed to buy narrower clothes.
You see - your reasoning just doesn't work for me.
I have had the same arguments put to me for decades - since I was in my early 20s - it did not work then, it doesn't work now.

 

[ATZ]

If I have 140g of carbs per day three things are going to happen. The first thing is that my blood glucose levels would hit the roof (I would have to swap out some fats and maybe even some protein to fit in all those carbs and would probably start snacking again because carbs are not satiating), the second thing is that I would gain weight because of hyperinsulinaemia and the third would be a visit to a nurse or doctor to pick up a prescription for an SGLT2i or DPP4 with Insulin a probable option. Why would these things happen? Coz I have Insulin Resistant Type 2 Diabetes.

So ignore the results of the trial because it doesn't fit your rhetoric.

Have you heard of the satiety index? Or a list of foods that keep you feeling full? What tops the list? The humble white potato. So the claim that carbs are not satiating is demonstrably false too.

What caused your type 2 diabetes?

 

[Guzzler]

Great, so we're getting somewhere



Disagree. You were fat and ill because you were overeating full stop. Food choice/type can influence this but it's not the cause of the problem, the overeating is, the excess energy (calories) that you were taking in.

Sure it's much easier to overeat on calorie dense, hyper-palatable junk type foods, but look at their composition - they rarely (if ever) contain just carbohydrate, it's usually a mix of carbs and fat, coupled with sugar and/or salt. It's this mixture than makes them tasty. Not to mention being low in fibre, water, protein and low in food volume.

But you can still get fat eating too much "good" food too.



I'm not diabetic, but I've worked with both type 1 and 2 and got both groups to successfully lose weight without carb restriction. One type 1 client I prepared for a photoshoot level of leanness eating between 350-500g of carbohydrate per day, but he's a PT and apparently they aren't "a picture of health" so I won't mention that anecdote again ;o)

Back in 2007 and pre getting qualified as a nutritionist I took my own body weight from 107kg to 85kg simply by monitoring my calorie intake and making better food choices. I still ate
carbohydrates and occasional junk foods and I still maintain this weight to this day.

How would you explain why athletes develope Type 2 Diabetes? Sir Steve Redgrave, for example. Hardly the couch potato you allude to.

 

[Guzzler]

So ignore the results of the trial because it doesn't fit your rhetoric.

Have you heard of the satiety index? Or a list of foods that keep you feeling full? What tops the list? The humble white potato. So the claim that carbs are not satiating is demonstrably false too.

What caused your type 2 diabetes?

Not false at all. And no one, But no one! has pinned down the cause/s of Type 2 Diabetes.

Edited typos.

 

[Resurgam]

I'm not diabetic, but I've worked with both type 1 and 2 and got both groups to successfully lose weight without carb restriction. One type 1 client I prepared for a photoshoot level of leanness eating between 350-500g of carbohydrate per day, but he's a PT and apparently they aren't "a picture of health" so I won't mention that anecdote again ;o)

Back in 2007 and pre getting qualified as a nutritionist I took my own body weight from 107kg to 85kg simply by monitoring my calorie intake and making better food choices. I still ate
carbohydrates and occasional junk foods and I still maintain this weight to this day.

Ah - so you lost weight easily when you were - early twenties maybe?
Just wait a while. Just wait and see.....

 

[Goonergal]

More posts have been edited to remove sniping comments.

This is the final warning. The thread will be locked to further responses if the debate does not remain civil.

 

[Winnie53]

ATZ, what percentage of your practice are type 2 diabetics?

 

[zand]

Nearly all of people's weight problems can be explained by eating too much rather than one singular food or macronutrient.

t

And why do people eat too much?

 

[jjraak]

Great, so we're getting somewhere



Disagree. You were fat and ill because you were overeating full stop. Food choice/type can influence this but it's not the cause of the problem, the overeating is, the excess energy (calories) that you were taking in.

Sure it's much easier to overeat on calorie dense, hyper-palatable junk type foods, but look at their composition - they rarely (if ever) contain just carbohydrate, it's usually a mix of carbs and fat, coupled with sugar and/or salt. It's this mixture than makes them tasty. Not to mention being low in fibre, water, protein and low in food volume.

But you can still get fat eating too much "good" food too.



I'm not diabetic, but I've worked with both type 1 and 2 and got both groups to successfully lose weight without carb restriction. One type 1 client I prepared for a photoshoot level of leanness eating between 350-500g of carbohydrate per day, but he's a PT and apparently they aren't "a picture of health" so I won't mention that anecdote again ;o)

Back in 2007 and pre getting qualified as a nutritionist I took my own body weight from 107kg to 85kg simply by monitoring my calorie intake and making better food choices. I still ate
carbohydrates and occasional junk foods and I still maintain this weight to this day.

now we're getting somewhere, you seem to confuse type 1 with type 2..

well done on the weight loss.
i went 17st +down to 13.1lbs simply by changing out the carb heavy for low carb, and upping the fat content of my diet.

And as for eating more..i actually was eating less before T2D, but of course you'll know i didn't.
but my wife will know i did so that suits me.
A few years back i had a scare, so she nagged me into all the better foods that get prescribed.
low fat this. more fruits, more cereal cos they are so good for us.

but weight loss did NOT follow.

a few years on, i get the news of T2D.
i'd probably been ill for at least several months, looking back i can spot issues i was having,
and if i am honest, the hunger just took over from feb 2018, so CICO did go out the window .

In aug 2018, at DX, i did try the eatwell diet for a 6 weeks, but i was miserable, hungry, lost minimal weight and my HBA1c, get worse as did all my blood work.

I tentatively come on here, begin to follow one or two others, found it easier then i thought it would be.
and weirdly begin to lose weight and improve my diabetes.

all personal data with nothing to back it up, except it happened, and its documented over many post during my time on here and in my signature...so i guess i could be lying..but hey ho.

The simple fact you keep missing and do not address, is how or why we all feel so passionate about something that for many has saved us, when it shouldn't work or to be fair it should work as you say, and we don't need to worry about how many carbs we eat...yet we know the carbs would have a seriously detrimental affect.

Does the fact so many of us reject what you say, BASED not a bit on that we didn't like what was said, but more seriously based on a mature considered opinion, of what DOES work for us, to alleviate or avoid the complications implicite in mismanaging the control of our particular type of diabetes (type 2 ) not make you at least pause and consider why we do it, and how well it works for US..

I think i'll happily let you continue with your business model, it seems to work well for you,
hope your clients enjoy a happy complications free life...but as for me..i'm 'out.' as they say.

i'll stick to what has served me so well to date.

Edited by moderator

* apologies to those offended.
thank you Mod, now i am aware a common phrase relating to the backside and the word 'hurt' is offensive, i'll try not to use it in future.

 

[HSSS]

@HSSS did you read the link about the Kempner diet I posted earlier?

A diet high in carbs that was hugely effective for treating overweight diabetics. You do not need special treatment to lose weight.

Can you give me the link I asked for please relative to the ice cream diet?

No I didn’t

Do you know anything about how diabetes works? Genuine question. How carbs raise blood sugars?

 

[HSSS]

but I've worked with both type 1 and 2 and got both groups to successfully lose weight without carb restriction.

Did they keep the weight off? What happened to their diabetes, particularly medication and levels as a result? Do you know beyond the short term?

You were fat and ill because you were overeating full stop.

do you believe this (and possible inactivity) is the only factor in developing type 2 diabetes?

One type 1 client I prepared

Totally different illness and causes. It is type 2 diabetics you are discussingthis with by and large here.

 

[zand]

To be fair when i was in my 20s and 30s I believed that CICO was everything. So @ATZ you have plenty of time to learn the hard way just like I did.

 

[Winnie53]

ATZ this is important. What percentage of your clients have type 2 diabetes?

 

[ATZ]

could you tell me why when on Michael Mosley 800 cal a day diet for 7 weeks, I didn't lose a lb. I was religious about it logging every bit of food. And I was exercising, still not lost a lb.

How long do you have?

In nutrition we talk about this a lot, but everyone lies, everyone. The Overweight and obese are shown to underestimate their intake by 50%, dieticians even underreport their intake by about 200kcal per day.

You might not even have been knowingly doing it. Cooking oils, spreads, marinades, liquid calories, weekends not being accounted for. They all count.

Then there is the other side of the equation, sometimes (not always) reductions in energy intake are accompanied by reductions in output too. You'll move less, workouts become more effort etc. Although contributory this doesn't explain why most aren't losing, as any adaptations to non exercise and exercise movment are typically not enough to outweigh a calorie deifict created by only eating 800kcal per day.

Certain conditions can also throw you a curve ball. Those with poly cystic ovary syndrome can have up to a 40% reduction in their basal metabolic rate. Although a big challenge this can be overcome via controlling your diet.

So whilst it might not be the answer you want to hear my best guess would be you not sticking to the diet. Very low calorie diets like Mosley's plan are tough, but many thirve on the fast results too.

 

[ATZ]

Not false at all. And no one, But no one! has pinned down the cause/s of Type 2 Diabetes.

Edited typos.

Not false? I've provided you with evidence to demonstrate it is, where's yours?

And no we don't have definitive causes, but lifestyle and being overweight are likely key contributors.