Will YOU ask your Dr for the 600 cal diet

[pianoman]

So no sources then? And Is "Extreme" Low Carb the same as Ultra? Funny because I also read extensively and have spent considerable time over the years with my own HCPs and I've yet to see any dietitians or medical doctors making the distinctions you describe. Are you just making this all up as you go along?

It's fine to express a personal opinion or your own experience but when you couch it as "medical facts" or claim the authority of science to bolster your point, you'd best be prepared for it to stand up to scrutiny.

I know for a fact that there are many Doctors who view ketosis as safe in the long term... so the medical consensus that you claim does not exist -- even if there were only one medical Doctor who disagreed with you. In any case Science is NOT about consensus (or we'd all be living on a flat earth at the centre of the solar system) it is about testable, evidence-based proof... proof that from you is sadly lacking. Again this is a forum so personal opinion or anecdote is perfectly fine... but when you raise the bar or claim authority to try and silence your skeptics, expect to to be questioned.

 

[NewdestinyX]

So no sources then? And Is "Extreme" Low Carb the same as Ultra? Funny because I also read extensively and have spent considerable time over the years with my own HCPs and I've yet to see any dietitians or medical doctors making the distinctions you describe. Are you just making this all up as you go along?

It's fine to express a personal opinion or your own experience but when you couch it as "medical facts" or claim the authority of science to bolster your point, you'd best be prepared for it to stand up to scrutiny.

I know for a fact that there are many Doctors who view ketosis as safe in the long term... so the medical consensus that you claim does not exist -- even if there were only one medical Doctor who disagreed with you.

One disagreeing point of view does NOT spoil a consensus, Pianoman. And would you be open to the same challenge. Would you also cite sources please that prove or even indicate that long term ketosis is a healthy thing in the views of medical practitioners? Not blogs that suggest it is fine. There are hundreds of those. But please find for me mainstream medical associations or schools that would support long term ketosis.

Here's a good 'primer' on the problems with long term ketosis/verb lo carbing. Though in a blog format this article is well-sourced.
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/ans/psycholog ... /carbs.htm
One excerpt:

A summary of the Facts contained in published Scientific Literature about low-carb diets
Contrary to the advertising and personal accounts found on the web about low-carb diets, reports in scientific literature are based on well-researched theories and studies done specifically on the topic. The conclusions are somewhat similar to those made in the personal accounts on the web. The major difference is that the scientific literature explores the issue of long-term effects, the health consequences of a low-carb diet and the element of uncertainty that still surrounds that concept of low-carbohydrate intake.

 

[minitata]

No, there wouldn't be any point.

When I was 16, many, many years ago, I was put on a 600 - 800 calorie diet by a hospital and lost weight for a while and then 'stuck'. It was found that my metabolism is faulty (I had bovine TB as a 3 year old when Streptomycin was just being found to be effective as an injection and it affected all sorts of 'bits' of me). Since then, when tested, I've been found to be able to maintain weight on very low calories after a couple of months.

Also, I have been told, that if you are on a very low calorie diet that you shouldn't drive, and as I can't walk very far my car is my lifeline to the outside world.

MTT

 

[ernie100]

Hi
My view is that 800 calories per day is low not ultra low....and am ok to drive (after 6 days headache gone), my personal opinion is that if you have the veg in addition to the shakes as recommended and keep active..then should be ok...but check your BG levels and drink lots of water....above all keep it in perspective. That said my energy levels in the gym are more shallow. (little reserves).but thats fine.... the body is telling you to ease up and I am just keeping fit and supple, not trying to increase strength

 

[borofergie]

Hi
My view is that 800 calories per day is low not ultra low....and am ok to drive (after 6 days headache gone)

I agree.

I've been doing it for 5 days, during which time I've run 9 miles, and gone to work as normal. My energy levels are the same as normal, although I sleep better at night.

I'm guessing that once you are in Ketosis mode, then you just take the additional energy you need from burning fat, rather than from your Blood Glucose. Is there any limit on that, that should leave me feeling less engergic than on an regular diet?

 

[Sid Bonkers]

The optifast shakes which I believe feature in the Newcastle study contain 20g carbs each so X 3 shakes is 60g of carbs which will not put you in ketosis, the optislim shakes vary in carbs according to their web site so it would rather depend on which ones you are drinking and how many carbs are in the veg you eat as to whether or not you enter ketosis.

 

[Fazz]

600 Cal diet???
Ok...this is all new to me. What am I suppose to eat within the range of 600 cals? a sandwich a day?
Can someone explain where this 600 cal thing came from please?
Fazz x

 

[bowell]

Its 600kcal plus 200kcal Veg so its 800kcal per day

Study was to try and copy what happed to t2
after bariatric surgery and The normalisation of plasma glucose
With this diet

In an early stage clinical trial of 11 people, funded by Diabetes UK, all reversed their diabetes by drastically cutting their food intake to just 600 calories a day for two months. And three months later, seven remained free of diabetes.

Press release
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press.office/press.release/item/diet-reverses-type-2-diabetes

Report that kicked it all off
http://www.diabetologia-journal.org/Lim.pdf

Reply from Professor Taylor to frequent questions.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/assets/documents/Diabetes-Reversaloftype2study.pdf

The diet
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/assets/documents/StudyRecipes.pdf


GP notes
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/assets/documents/InformationfordoctorsRT.pdf

 

[Fazz]

Interesting....Has anyone here tried it? Does it work?

 

[ernie100]

Hi Fazz
Look for the thread Defatizing with Optislim by Patch....I think aside from Patch there are several of us on the Diet.....
its interesting and seems to be doing something to our fasting BG...but it is early days.

 

[bowell]

3 or 4 are having a go see
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22908

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22832

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23063

Watch your step this subject ,, tends to fire everyone off on a wobbler :mrgreen:

Read all you can and make your own mind up

Bob

 

[Patch]

NIce avatar, Bob! 8)

 

[Ragnar]

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

[borofergie]

I am already on 400 to 500 Kal. You lot trying to get me to put weight ON, or what?

Well done, now we all look like wimps.

How long have you managed to keep that up for? How much did you lose?

 

[carefixer]

I'm not asking my Dr.

So far I've been very unimpressed at how much my GP and practice nurse know about diabetes. My opinion is that I should educate myself on the subject and make my own decisions.

Educating yourself is the right way to go. Most GPs and nurses know nothing about diabetes(2) which is simply a result of trans fatty acid poisoning as is obesity. Check out just some of the mass of scientific literature on tfx.org.uk. A 600 calory a day diet will only be of any benefit if you are in the early stages of diabetes and obesity. Once you are in an advanced state it will have little if any effect on either condition. Obesity is curable when caused by the metabolic syndrome (trans-fat poisoning) as I have detailed on this site many times. My own experience of dieting to lose weight was that less than five hundred calories a day for seven months had no effect and simply maintained a weight of twenty stones. I was only able to lose weight by switching to a natural oil diet which has been so effective I have actually had to go on a calory bender recently to try and put on weight! After four months of binging I have managed to get my body weight up to 12.5 stones and this required much beer.

As for the blood sugar:

Three or more years ago it was typically 25mmol/l or greater when taking 2 x 60 units of insulin per day.
Now when not taking any medication for 48 hours (I do this periodically as a calibration) I usually find my blood glucose is in single figures (last time 7.3 mmol/l) a couple of hours post prandial as the quacks say. Interestingly this improvement is not as a result of my massive weight loss as this occured very quickly between 5 to 3 years ago roughly. I do know why but will not burden you with the details.

 

[janlady53]

I will not be going down this route. The research is new and the sample group of 11 people is hardly representative.
I have no doubt that such a low calorie diet will initially make symptons vanish only to return when "normal" eating is resumed. Remember that starvation was the treatment of choice for type 2 diabetics 60 years ago. It did not work then and I doubt it will work now.
How does it work? Apparently the very low calorie diet allows the pancreas to shed excess fat stored around the organ. This helps with insulin resistance.
The first time "patients" embark on this regime this may well work for a limited period.
If and when symptons return it is tempting to merely try the low calorie diet again. Those of us who have experienced living on very low calorie diets understand the dangers of the "famine response".
Having been starved once the body now lays extra fat around our essential organs in order to protect them. This process is the result of evolution and has ensured the survival of the species through periods of famine throughout our history. This is likely to hasten the onset of symptons and probably damage the pancreas even further. Low calorie diets can also damage bone density and our hearts folks.
The jury is out I'm afraid.

 

[Ragnar]

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

[IanD]

This continues to be a very interesting topic with half the voters seeing their Dr. We wait with interest, as this forum could provide some very useful anecdotal data.

For the past 3 years I have been avoiding all the obvious carbs, but otherwise eating enough never to be hungry, nor run out of energy. My latest HbA1c was 6.1. I am free from all the diabetic symptoms that caused me to seek out advice from this forum. (Intense leg pain, chronic tiredness, early stage retinopathy.)

Am I cured? I suspect that my metabolism has improved, to the extent that I can have the occasional treat without a spike. It is good to be able to enjoy a Cornetto when the rest of the family are indulging & get a reading of 6-7 rather than 10+.

It seems the most sure way of putting up my BG is to play tennis - my BG goes up at least a unit after 2 hours play. That's using only water. Presumably fat metabolism provides the glucose needed.

Generally I never drop below 4, & rarely below 5.

 

[noblehead]

After reading that Ian I would imagine you'll have no interest in asking your own Dr about the diet?

Nigel

 

[NewdestinyX]

This continues to be a very interesting topic with half the voters seeing their Dr. We wait with interest, as this forum could provide some very useful anecdotal data.

For the past 3 years I have been avoiding all the obvious carbs, but otherwise eating enough never to be hungry, nor run out of energy. My latest HbA1c was 6.1. I am free from all the diabetic symptoms that caused me to seek out advice from this forum. (Intense leg pain, chronic tiredness, early stage retinopathy.)

Am I cured? I suspect that my metabolism has improved, to the extent that I can have the occasional treat without a spike. It is good to be able to enjoy a Cornetto when the rest of the family are indulging & get a reading of 6-7 rather than 10+.

This is a great perspective and how I live too -- almost to a tee. My latest is 5.7A1c on a home test - 5.8 was my last lab result. So as far as the medical community is concerned I'm no longer in the 'diabetic' category. But I know they're wrong there. I'm just 'controlled'. The biggest encouraging aspect of the aftermath of the last two years of my life making all these adjustments IS the 'WAY smaller' spikes I get when I 'do' indulge. Like you -- even after a half a 'chocolate bar' (which I have rarely) the highest number I've ever seen is 7.8 or so. So the 'pancreas' is able to work pretty well with the beta cells it has left when it's fighting WAY less with the insulin resistance - mine being 'muscle insulin resistance' from the fat around my middle. Not everyone has 'muscle insulin resistance' -- namely the 'skinny diabetics' - but that's my main issue and when I get to my perfect BMI I'm expecting to be a fully 'recovered' diabetic.

Having been starved once the body now lays extra fat around our essential organs in order to protect them. This process is the result of evolution and has ensured the survival of the species through periods of famine throughout our history. This is likely to hasten the onset of symptoms and probably damage the pancreas even further. Low calorie diets can also damage bone density and our hearts folks.
The jury is out I'm afraid.

yes - I agree with you here. It's the most 'concerning' aspect of these very lo calorie diet. You could actually be working AGAINST the very goal you're trying to accomplish. If the organs pack fat to prevent starvation then that's the opposite response than the one you want.