Type 2 hypos - no meds

[lucylocket61]

I want to raise awareness of the fact that some type 2's can get as low as under 3. These may not be the life threatening hypos that a T1 gets. I understand that.

However, I dont like the term 'false hypo' as it implies the person is making it up, or dramatizing what is happening, or minimising how debilitating and distressing they are. I read comments about how type 2's dont get hypos, or they are nothing much, just a small dip and if they rest for a bit, all will be well.

My own GP has seen my readings, and witnessed this happen to me. Sometimes I can faint, I go dizzy, I have to lie down or at least sit down quickly. I shake, I have a cold sweat. This lasts for about 30 mins or more from the first sign - which is usually a buzzing in my head. Often I get visual changes too, like I am looking at things under water. I feel weak for several hours afterwards.

This has been happening to me, and other type 2's I know, for many years. Often I have recently tested and my blood sugar levels are good, so its not me going from high to low. It is unrelated to food intake, and I havent recently had a high carb food or drink.

We are all different, I suspect there are more types of diabetes than we realise right now.

I prefer the term 'non life threatening hypo' and think it important that this is known about more widely, even in this community.

 

[Member496333]

Possible glucagon dysfunction? I've also heard about the 'spluttering' insulin theory but don't know if there's any truth to it. Most likely there is. T2 without meds getting [clinical] hypos needs to be referred to an endo as a minimum.

That aside, having experienced a 'false' hypo, I concur that there's nothing false about them. I thought I was going to die. Never felt more wretched in my life. This 'hypo' was 4.4mmol/L, a number which is now entirely normal for me. I agree that the term false hypo does somewhat downplay the severity.

 

[lucylocket61]

T2 without meds getting hypos needs to be refereed to an endo as a minimum.

my chances of getting to see an endo are about as slim as me witnessing hippos iceskating in the wild. I dont need to see one. I just have a very low glucose dump response time. it happens.

 

[Member496333]

I suspect there are more types of diabetes than we realise right now.

Recently I am increasingly beginning to think that diabetes can be thought of as essentially three sliders;

1. Resistance.
2. Deficiency.
3. Autoimmune.

Play around with all three sliders up & down between 0-10 to your heart's content and then try to attach a label to the overall end result. Lots of possibilities. It certainly explains why it's often almost impossible for some patients to receive a satisfactory diagnosis. Then of course there's the additional complication of glucagon dysfunction/resistance and probably others too.

 

[Member496333]

I dont need to see one. I just have a very low glucose dump response time.

Which should be signalled in part by glucagon. A good endo should be able to help but fair enough.

 

[Tophat1900]

Big hug @lucylocket61 - I am afraid I cannot add much advice.
But wanted to thank you for bringing a smile to my face when picturing a hippo iceskating the wild - it is a wonderful analogy,

Can you imagine the boost to tourism?

 

[KK123]

I want to raise awareness of the fact that some type 2's can get as low as under 3. These may not be the life threatening hypos that a T1 gets. I understand that.

However, I dont like the term 'false hypo' as it implies the person is making it up, or dramatizing what is happening, or minimising how debilitating and distressing they are. I read comments about how type 2's dont get hypos, or they are nothing much, just a small dip and if they rest for a bit, all will be well.

My own GP has seen my readings, and witnessed this happen to me. Sometimes I can faint, I go dizzy, I have to lie down or at least sit down quickly. I shake, I have a cold sweat. This lasts for about 30 mins or more from the first sign - which is usually a buzzing in my head. Often I get visual changes too, like I am looking at things under water. I feel weak for several hours afterwards.

This has been happening to me, and other type 2's I know, for many years. Often I have recently tested and my blood sugar levels are good, so its not me going from high to low. It is unrelated to food intake, and I havent recently had a high carb food or drink.

We are all different, I suspect there are more types of diabetes than we realise right now.

I prefer the term 'non life threatening hypo' and think it important that this is known about more widely, even in this community.

Great post lucylocket, and it could be life threatening of course, any dizziness or feeling faint out on the streets IS dangerous, definitely not a minor issue. x

 

[KK123]

Big hug @lucylocket61 - I am afraid I cannot add much advice.
But wanted to thank you for bringing a smile to my face when picturing a hippo iceskating the wild - it is a wonderful analogy,

Especially one in the midst of a hypo!

 

[Dr Snoddy]

Excellent post. Since diagnosis 6 years ago I have had occasional spells like the ones you describe and they do not seem to fit any particular pattern. The sensation of being about to faint, dizziness etc is not pleasant and once the effect takes hold it takes at least 2-3 hours to wear off. The last one happened as I was swimming at a lido -scary!
I tend to agree with Jim about a problem with glucagon secretion. Many people I know can cheerfully miss meals with impunity. I am not one of these and have always had some sort of impaired glucose regulation.

 

[Tophat1900]

I want to raise awareness of the fact that some type 2's can get as low as under 3. These may not be the life threatening hypos that a T1 gets. I understand that.

However, I dont like the term 'false hypo' as it implies the person is making it up, or dramatizing what is happening, or minimising how debilitating and distressing they are. I read comments about how type 2's dont get hypos, or they are nothing much, just a small dip and if they rest for a bit, all will be well.

My own GP has seen my readings, and witnessed this happen to me. Sometimes I can faint, I go dizzy, I have to lie down or at least sit down quickly. I shake, I have a cold sweat. This lasts for about 30 mins or more from the first sign - which is usually a buzzing in my head. Often I get visual changes too, like I am looking at things under water. I feel weak for several hours afterwards.

This has been happening to me, and other type 2's I know, for many years. Often I have recently tested and my blood sugar levels are good, so its not me going from high to low. It is unrelated to food intake, and I havent recently had a high carb food or drink.

We are all different, I suspect there are more types of diabetes than we realise right now.

I prefer the term 'non life threatening hypo' and think it important that this is known about more widely, even in this community.

That's all quite interesting.... and has quite an impact on you physically. Definitely worth posting about.

 

[HSSS]

@lucylocket61 I don’t see what’s false about the episodes you describe. At 2 or 3 it’s most definitely hypo not what is called a false hypo.

A false hypo is when readings are still quite high (ie where the false bit comes in) but the symptoms (still very real) are present as if the numbers were 4 or less, usually due to the fact that they are much lower than recently adapted to.

 

[Member496333]

@lucylocket61 I don’t see what’s false about the episodes you describe. At 2 or 3 it’s most definitely hypo not what is called a false hypo.

A false hypo is when readings are still quite high (ie where the false bit comes in) but the symptoms (still very real) are present as if the numbers were 4 or less, usually due to the fact that they are much lower than recently adapted to.

Perhaps interestingly for some, even what would normally be considered hypoglycaemia is actually somewhat relative. Whether or not someone has a "hypo" depends largely on the ability of their brain to function optimally at low levels of glucose. Some individuals who are heavily fat adapted and running on ketone bodies can function just fine at 2mmol/L or even less. I don't have the details to hand right now (@bulkbiker may know), but there have been tests performed on people in deep ketosis where they were intentionally injected with insulin and had their glucose driven down to ~1mmol/L. The subjects were apparently absolutely fine and suffered no ill effects.

Of course this is rare in the context of the general population, but nevertheless it indicates that hypoglycaemia should be regarded as a clinical condition rather than a range of numbers. For the avoidance of doubt I am definitely not suggesting that anyone should ignore low blood sugar.

 

[bulkbiker]

Perhaps interestingly for some, even what would normally be considered hypoglycaemia is actually somewhat relative. Whether or not someone has a "hypo" depends largely on the ability of their brain to function optimally at low levels of glucose. Some individuals who are heavily fat adapted and running on ketone bodies can function just fine at 2mmol/L or even less. I don't have the details to hand right now (@bulkbiker may know), but there have been tests performed on people in deep ketosis where they were intentionally injected with insulin and had their glucose driven down to ~1mmol/L. The subjects were apparently absolutely fine and suffered no ill effects.

Of course this is rare in the context of the general population, but nevertheless it indicates that hypoglycaemia should be regarded as a clinical condition rather than a range of numbers. For the avoidance of doubt I am definitely not suggesting that anyone should ignore low blood sugar.

http://coconutketones.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/CahillGF_CerebMetabolism.pdf
I think this is what you are referring to sir.. page 238.

 

[JohnEGreen]

At 2.2 I was definitely not fine and on at least 2 occasions have had to be lifted of the floor by family members.

I do understand that being drug induced my diabetes may not act like standard T2 if there is any such thing as standard T2 which I seriously doubt.

 

[Resurgam]

Low numbers are real hypos - a false hypo is due to a rapid drop to normal levels and the brain having a tantrum and throwing a wobbly about it.
There are definitely different forms of type two diabetes some of which are close to reactive hypoglycaemia at times.

 

[Struma]

I want to raise awareness of the fact that some type 2's can get as low as under 3. These may not be the life threatening hypos that a T1 gets. I understand that.

However, I dont like the term 'false hypo' as it implies the person is making it up, or dramatizing what is happening, or minimising how debilitating and distressing they are. I read comments about how type 2's dont get hypos, or they are nothing much, just a small dip and if they rest for a bit, all will be well.

My own GP has seen my readings, and witnessed this happen to me. Sometimes I can faint, I go dizzy, I have to lie down or at least sit down quickly. I shake, I have a cold sweat. This lasts for about 30 mins or more from the first sign - which is usually a buzzing in my head. Often I get visual changes too, like I am looking at things under water. I feel weak for several hours afterwards.

This has been happening to me, and other type 2's I know, for many years. Often I have recently tested and my blood sugar levels are good, so its not me going from high to low. It is unrelated to food intake, and I havent recently had a high carb food or drink.

We are all different, I suspect there are more types of diabetes than we realise right now.

I prefer the term 'non life threatening hypo' and think it important that this is known about more widely, even in this community.

Perhaps you might feel better with the term 'pseudo hypo?'

 

[Antje77]

I was told that the brain needs 2.8 mmol/l to function properly.

My brain disagrees. I don't count my brain as functioning properly when I buy 1.5 kgs of bell peppers because they were cheap when still having 6 bell peppers at home and knowing it. Got some other interesting items as well, and I was only 3.7.
Guinea pigs and rabbits will be properly spoilt this week.

Also, I think no one calls it a false hypo when as low as you describe, false hypo's are feeling very rubbish and hypo while still above 4, due to having gotten used to running high.

In the mean time, anyone have a good recipe with lots of bell pepper?

 

[Goonergal]

Interesting post @lucylocket61

I agree that readings below 4 are not ‘false hypos’ and reading through the comments it seems that reactions to such readings are very personal. In my case I quite regularly spend periods of the day well into the 3s with no ill effects at all.

On a couple of occasions I’ve caught a drop into the 2s with a finger prick with the only symptom being extreme hunger - which is the reason they were caught as I found something to eat and tested before doing so.

With the benefit of insight from use of a Libre more recently, it’s also clear that my BG quite naturally rises out of these very without any special effort from me.

Also agree with your thoughts that there are many more types of diabetes than are commonly recognised. The current labels are not helpful and I rather like @Jim Lahey s hypothesis in post #4.

 

[JohnEGreen]

I have known people who when well above the drink drive limits for alcohol still believe them selves capable of driving they were not.

Because you can not discern the effects of low blood sugar does not mean they are not present.

 

[Weehotty]

Im glad u raised this point Lucy .. im definitely not the only one !