Late Spike and High Fat meals

[Cocosilk]

I'm just wondering if anyone has read any studies that show what insulin levels do when we have a late spike after eating fat and carbs together.

I still allow myself one roast potato with roast meat sometimes but today I was naughty and had 2. My 1h reading was 6.3mmol and my 2 hour reading was 8.2mmol, then before 3 hours I was back to 5.6mmol.

I can see the curve of the blood sugar and but wonder what the insulin curve looks like in these cases.

Would the amount of insulin produced be the same if I ate something that gave me a blood glucose spike of 8.2mmol at the 1 hour mark and went back to 6.3mmol at the 2 hour mark? Or do these late spikes need more insulin to control the blood sugar?

 

[kaylz91]

If I understand correctly the it would still require the same amount of insulin, controlling spikes is dependant on timing of insulin

 

[Brunneria]

There was a recent dcuk newsbot item on this.
The study was for T1s, but it looked as if they were on the way to working out a rough calculation of when and how much to bolus (short acting insulin) for high fat meals.
From what I can remember, the insulin requirement was slightly raised, but delayed, and spread over a longer time.
None of which was unexpected, but still very interesting and presumably very useful for people having to inject multiple times for a single meal, like pizza.

 

[bulkbiker]

I'm just guessing here but I imagine @Cocosilk is referring to endogenous insulin production?

 

[Brunneria]

I'm just guessing here but I imagine @Cocosilk is referring to endogenous insulin production?

I am sure she is, but that doesn't mean that the above info won't add to her knowledge. And it is IMHO very likely that there are strong similarities between T1 and T2 in terms of insulin needs after fatty meals, with the additional likelihood of raised insulin resistance for the T2s.

I kind of take the view that the more knowledge the better and some of it ends up fitting into the overall jigsaw puzzle, even if you don't realise it at the time.

 

[Mbaker]

Not specifically read a study, but do have a couple of things you can try. Maybe cook the potatoes the day before in duck fat and leave in the fridge overnight. This should reduce the starch levels. This YouTube is interesting regarding the order of eating. I am not sure I would enjoy the eating process so much eating to formula, but it seems to work in the example:

 

[Member496333]

From an ancestral evolution point of view, fat should come attached to protein, not carbs. Fat and carbohydrate packaged together are the perfect storm of metabolic dysfunction. Deal with glucose, make fat and store fat in the same meal? Little wonder manmade food is problematic. Mother Nature didn't account for the 'pizza effect'.

Just saying

 

[bulkbiker]

From an ancestral evolution point of view, fat should come attached to protein, not carbs. Fat and carbohydrate packaged together are the perfect storm of metabolic dysfunction. Deal with glucose, make fat and store fat in the same meal? Little wonder manmade food is problematic. Mother Nature didn't account for the 'pizza effect'.

Just saying

Can I use that?.. the perfect precis of how we should eat..

 

[Member496333]

Can I use that?.. the perfect precis of how we should eat..

Knock yourself out

 

[Cocosilk]

Not specifically read a study, but do have a couple of things you can try. Maybe cook the potatoes the day before in duck fat and leave in the fridge overnight. This should reduce the starch levels. This YouTube is interesting regarding the order of eating. I am not sure I would enjoy the eating process so much eating to formula, but it seems to work in the example:

That Japanese study was really interesting! Thanks for that link!

I'm a little confused about a few things still and wonder what your opinions are regarding them. @Mbaker @Brunneria @bulkbiker @Jim Lahey In the video they mention how skipping meals increases glucose spikes with the next meal (if you skip both breakfast and lunch then you'll spike even higher when you have dinner.) I'm assuming that's a "normal" meal with up to half being carbohydrates in that next meal and wonder if eating vegetables, meats and fats first (as they also recommend) is the solution if you've been intermittent fasting and still want carbs in your other one or two meals for that day.

They also make it sound like skipping meals and going very low carb (unless you are severely diabetic) is not necessarily a good idea. Is that because they assume those who are not yet diabetic will most likely go back to eating carbs and will then get higher and more damaging spikes so they just don't recommend going too low carb in the first place so your pancreas doesn't go to sleep?

I guess my biggest question is, if I am not yet diabetic but showing signs of glucose intolerance, how low carb should I be eating and should I do any kind of intermittent fasting while breastfeeding (most sources I've read suggest not to)?

And when I get around to weaning my baby, do I need to go hard and pull right back on carbs and start fasting (at least shorten my eating window further) to have a chance at increasing insulin sensitivity, or is the gradual approach of just lower carb more sensible if I'm not yet having diabetic fasting levels or 2 hour postprandial readings but seem just to be susceptible to glucose spikes (8s, 9s and 10s) in the first 30 - 60 mins when I do eat small - moderate amounts of carbs (large amounts of carbs seem to spike me from 11 - 13 mmol sometimes, which I don't think would be good if I let it go on for years..).


The last GP I saw just told me to eat a Mediterranean diet but I'm trying to avoid grains at the moment because I've noticed the heartburn I used to get and just thought was normal for me has gone away (except after really high fat meals sometimes).


I'm watching this (linked below) at the moment too so there may be some more answers here, although again differing opinions.

 

[Mbaker]

That Japanese study was really interesting! Thanks for that link!

I'm a little confused about a few things still and wonder what your opinions are regarding them. @Mbaker @Brunneria @bulkbiker @Jim Lahey In the video they mention how skipping meals increases glucose spikes with the next meal (if you skip both breakfast and lunch then you'll spike even higher when you have dinner.) I'm assuming that's a "normal" meal with up to half being carbohydrates in that next meal and wonder if eating vegetables, meats and fats first (as they also recommend) is the solution if you've been intermittent fasting and still want carbs in your other one or two meals for that day.

They also make it sound like skipping meals and going very low carb (unless you are severely diabetic) is not necessarily a good idea. Is that because they assume those who are not yet diabetic will most likely go back to eating carbs and will then get higher and more damaging spikes so they just don't recommend going too low carb in the first place so your pancreas doesn't go to sleep?

I guess my biggest question is, if I am not yet diabetic but showing signs of glucose intolerance, how low carb should I be eating and should I do any kind of intermittent fasting while breastfeeding (most sources I've read suggest not to)?

And when I get around to weaning my baby, do I need to go hard and pull right back on carbs and start fasting (at least shorten my eating window further) to have a chance at increasing insulin sensitivity, or is the gradual approach of just lower carb more sensible if I'm not yet having diabetic fasting levels or 2 hour postprandial readings but seem just to be susceptible to glucose spikes (8s, 9s and 10s) in the first 30 - 60 mins when I do eat small - moderate amounts of carbs (large amounts of carbs seem to spike me from 11 - 13 mmol sometimes, which I don't think would be good if I let it go on for years..).


The last GP I saw just told me to eat a Mediterranean diet but I'm trying to avoid grains at the moment because I've noticed the heartburn I used to get and just thought was normal for me has gone away (except after really high fat meals sometimes).


I'm watching this (linked below) at the moment too so there may be some more answers here, although again differing opinions.

@Cocosilk there is a lot of conflicting information. The "trick" used in the video is confounded by factors such as the age of the person, the food type (Japanese rice will have a different profile to that available elsewhere), fat content of the meal, insulin production of the individual, gut health etc. Basically this type of experiment will have to be run in your own context to see how you respond.

Some people who are on say 2 meals a day get a better overall response to glucose levels by front loading their initial meal with their preferred carbs and having a protein and fat biased dinner, some are vice-versa (there was a thread on this recently on this site).

For me skipping meals is a go to option. I have more recently dabbled with a bias towards 2 meals, but have gone back to OMAD for 5 days a week over the last 2 weeks, a kind of cyclical how I feel way of eating.

I am a bit wary of making comments on ladies who are breast feeding, but at the back of my mind I believe IF is not advised at this time, whereas a well formulated (fat, protein, mineral content) lower carb diet has been used in examples I have seen (the Professor Tim Noakes case is a good reference). Maybe just keep to low GI vegetable carbs such as broccoli, cauliflower and asparagus, and fruit ending in berry.

The Med diet would need to be defined as this has been hijacked.

Right now your hormones are going to behave in a non-standard way for your normality. The women I know give everything and more to their babies, so naturally will for want of a better word be knackered. If you are in a position to get some "me" time to get rest / sleep, walk or read a book this would be good in general.

 

[ianf0ster]

……………………………..

I guess my biggest question is, if I am not yet diabetic but showing signs of glucose intolerance, how low carb should I be eating and should I do any kind of intermittent fasting while breastfeeding (most sources I've read suggest not to)?

And when I get around to weaning my baby, do I need to go hard and pull right back on carbs and start fasting (at least shorten my eating window further) to have a chance at increasing insulin sensitivity, or is the gradual approach of just lower carb more sensible if I'm not yet having diabetic fasting levels or 2 hour postprandial readings but seem just to be susceptible to glucose spikes (8s, 9s and 10s) in the first 30 - 60 mins when I do eat small - moderate amounts of carbs (large amounts of carbs seem to spike me from 11 - 13 mmol sometimes, which I don't think would be good if I let it go on for years..).


The last GP I saw just told me to eat a Mediterranean diet but I'm trying to avoid grains at the moment because I've noticed the heartburn I used to get and just thought was normal for me has gone away (except after really high fat meals sometimes).


I'm watching this (linked below) at the moment too so there may be some more answers here, although again differing opinions.

Hi Cocosilk,
Many thanks for posting that Video link.
The title of which doesn't do it justice, you would need a whole paragraph to list all the subjects covered.

After viewing it (it is a long video), I noted just some of the subjects that are throroughly covered:

Dieting, Fasting, Bariatric Surgery, Obesity, Type 2 Diabetes, Coronary Vascular Disease, building better bones and muscles plus much more.
He also discusses the prevalence of Medical research Bias and why such 'bribery' isn't allowed in other spheres such as the Law proffession and Policing etc.