Reversing Type 2 with a Vegan diet?

[Mbaker]

Hi @muckifunkie,

This graphic might be helpful. It compares the result of the vegan intervention (in yellow) with the results from the Virta Health ketogenic study (in green). Found the graphic on the Tim Noakes twitter page.

Unfortunately Dr Barnard is still able to have ample input into guidelines. I have tried to find better results from him, but haven't been able to....

 

[Flora123]

I have got that book and you are right! What's left out in terms of dairy is replaced with large quantities of dates and other high GI items in the baking section. I think it is easier to eat LCHF and agree that some have a very low tolerance of any carbs!

I never made the sweet things from her books but did make a lot of the savoury things which are very high carb, although low GI. Maybe coincidence but my veggie diet (all homemade) didn’t seem to do be any favours. Feel like a different person on LCHF!

 

[ianf0ster]

I too had been almost vegan, low meat, fish , only horrible low fa cheese, High whole grains for over 10years before my 3x bypass and the T2D diagnosis.
I have heard that there have been good results (back in the 1950s) from an extreme low fat, low protein, high carb diet,. But I'm unsure of the validity of the data, however what isn't in doubt is how hard it was to stick to the diet which was less than 5% fat ( meaning most veg were excluded as too high in fat. The Dr behind it was accused of whipping participants - though he claimed in his defence that they asked to be whipped in order to motivate them to stick to the diet. Rice, fruit and Fruit juice. Of course the diet was deficient and supplements had to be taken

I still don't understand how such extremely high carb could have worked for T2D. Certainly any modern T2D using a meter would have quickly bailed out after just a few days of extremely high BG spikes.

 

[DCUKMod]

I too had been almost vegan, low meat, fish , only horrible low fa cheese, High whole grains for over 10years before my 3x bypass and the T2D diagnosis.
I have heard that there have been good results (back in the 1950s) from an extreme low fat, low protein, high carb diet,. But I'm unsure of the validity of the data, however what isn't in doubt is how hard it was to stick to the diet which was less than 5% fat ( meaning most veg were excluded as too high in fat. The Dr behind it was accused of whipping participants - though he claimed in his defence that they asked to be whipped in order to motivate them to stick to the diet. Rice, fruit and Fruit juice. Of course the diet was deficient and supplements had to be taken

I still don't understand how such extremely high carb could have worked for T2D. Certainly any modern T2D using a meter would have quickly bailed out after just a few days of extremely high BG spikes.

Ian - I don't know of the study you are referring to, so will make a very general post to say that life was very different in the 50s. Fewer ordinary families had cars. Manual labour work was much more common for both genders, and for the married women, who more often than not would stay at home with the children, she would would spend far more time on domestic labour - no Dyson hoovers, or automatic washer driers, and of course no Chelsea tractors for dropping the little ones to school.

All in all, their lifestyles possibly had a better chance of coping with the higher carb elements to the diet.

 

[Listlad]

All in all, their lifestyles possibly had a better chance of coping with the higher carb elements to the diet.

Turn that on its head of course and we are basically saying that higher levels of physical activity are a massive factor.

 

[bulkbiker]

Ian - I don't know of the study you are referring to, so will make a very general post to say that life was very different in the 50s. Fewer ordinary families had cars. Manual labour work was much more common for both genders, and for the married women, who more often than not would stay at home with the children, she would would spend far more time on domestic labour - no Dyson hoovers, or automatic washer driers, and of course no Chelsea tractors for dropping the little ones to school.

All in all, their lifestyles possibly had a better chance of coping with the higher carb elements to the diet.

Dr Kempner..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_diet
for your edification and delight (especially the whipping part)...

 

[DCUKMod]

Turn that on its head of course and we are basically saying that higher levels of physical activity are a massive factor.

That isn't what I am saying at all. What I am saying is the 50s were different days in more than just diet.

 

[Listlad]

That isn't what I am saying at all. What I am saying is the 50s were different days in more than just diet.

I was born in the fifties. I do remember those days. They were as you described and people were more active then. Housework (less appliances) , manual labour. Walking and cycling to work as opposed to the Chelse Tractor to drop the kids off to school. All sounds like a higher level of activity to me but you could include that in a change of lifestyle. You are correct.

 

[Listlad]

I have my doubts, though I do believe the propaganda that vegans are much less likely to go down the T2 path in the first place. The reason for the lower incidence of T2 in vegans isn't clear, though it may just be that because they are vegan they have to avoid most of the processed food in the supermarkets, which tend to be full of excess carbs (and other rubbish). Is it just the excess sugar in modern processed food that messes us up?

They don't all proselytize, by the way, my son moved from vegetarian to vegan a couple of years ago and has never pushed his eating habits on others.

The trouble is that it's really really hard to work out the benefits and disadvantages of different dietary choices (other than macdonalds is bad ). It's very hard to do double blind trials on people eating low carb or vegan, and though long term studies of different populations are available, it's incredibly easy for researchers to see what they want to see rather than look at the evidence objectively. Yes, it seems likely that going low carb is an effective way to control the metabolic disorder known as T2 diabetes. I certainly recommend it to any new T2s that I meet.

But I feel uncomfortable when people start to regard dietary choices with a religious fervour, whether it's veganism or HFLC or the NHS eatwell plate. There can be good reasons for doing any of them. And I don't think that there is one ideal diet that suits everyone, though as said before, I'm pretty sure that macdonalds is bad...

Nice balanced post. Thanks.

 

[Resurgam]

People who can survive on a vegetarian diet might be genetically adapted to do so - we are, after all a fairly diverse lot, despite several 'pinch points' in our evolution where the entire Human race was represented by a few thousand, or even a few hundred individuals.

 

[Mr_Pot]

People who can survive on a vegetarian diet might be genetically adapted to do so - we are, after all a fairly diverse lot, despite several 'pinch points' in our evolution where the entire Human race was represented by a few thousand, or even a few hundred individuals.

Surely everyone can survive on a vegetarian diet, whether that's longer or in better health than on any other diet is the question.

 

[Resurgam]

It probably depends on your hopes and expectations.

 

[lucylocket61]

A vegetarian diet includes low carb and keto options. It is not automatically high carb.

 

[lucylocket61]

And vegan keto I'd also possible

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vegan-keto-diet

 

[Flora123]

My sister and I recently did a dna test in researching our family tree. It was very interesting that our history and genetic mix is varied but predominantly high meat eating people. Maybe I was never actually supposed to eat grains after all!

 

[bulkbiker]

[QUOTE="Flora123, post: 2169778, member: 484460"Maybe I was never actually supposed to eat grains after all![/QUOTE]

Not sure anyone was really.. they are their core grass seeds after all...

 

[Oldvatr]

I too had been almost vegan, low meat, fish , only horrible low fa cheese, High whole grains for over 10years before my 3x bypass and the T2D diagnosis.
I have heard that there have been good results (back in the 1950s) from an extreme low fat, low protein, high carb diet,. But I'm unsure of the validity of the data, however what isn't in doubt is how hard it was to stick to the diet which was less than 5% fat ( meaning most veg were excluded as too high in fat. The Dr behind it was accused of whipping participants - though he claimed in his defence that they asked to be whipped in order to motivate them to stick to the diet. Rice, fruit and Fruit juice. Of course the diet was deficient and supplements had to be taken

I still don't understand how such extremely high carb could have worked for T2D. Certainly any modern T2D using a meter would have quickly bailed out after just a few days of extremely high BG spikes.

If you are talking about the study that Dr Barnard uses to support his work, then in all likelyhood it is one of the ADVENT studies carried out by the 7th Day Adventists. They had 3 attempts to get the results they wanted. The first study (ADVENT) never saw the light of day as it was deemed to be heavily biassed in its methodology and analysis. It used a closed society (the church congregation) who were already mainly vegetarian by decree, and so was not representative of the general populace at large. The second (ADVENT1) had a similar outcome in that it was based on the same sample source (the Church) and was conducted during Lent when most adherents were fasting and eating unleavened bread. The one that survives is ADVENT2 which is quoted by many nutritionists and environmentalists the world over as being proof that the vegan diet will cure all manner of illnesses incl T2D and that it was suitable for diabetics in general. The team used the PETO analysis methods on a prospective or cohort / epidemiological framework and drew cause and effect conclusions from data that was incorrectly extrapolated by the faulty analysis. The PETO method of statistics has been banned now for "being open to bias an misinterpretation" since it used weighting factors that were chosen by the team, but which did not need to be declared in the analysis, so that results could be massaged, and no one could reproduce the results since the factoring was not declared. So ADVENT2 is seriously flawed and cannot be used to prove anything.

As far as I know ADVENT2 is the only study that examins the effect of an ultra low fat / high carb diet as being suitable for diabetics. The Mormons who have a similar approach to diets and lifestyles in this respect are currently noting a large increase in T2D among their congregation, so it does not seem to be the panacea in the real life situation, even in a closed community.