Full reversal?

[Krystyna23040]

Wow! That's a wild story. Yes, I agree that many don't know how long they have been diabetic. For me, I can pretty much pinpoint mine at just about one year based on previous annual blood tests. I hope that wasn't too long.

That is definitely not too long. Great that you were offered annual blood tests which means that you were able to take action quickly.

 

[Krystyna23040]

Like for the info.
hug for the appalling treatment.

Thank you. It wasn't good treatment but it was also partly my fault for being so gullible and believing what the doctor told me was true. I definitely question everything I am told now and won't accept any treatment without fully researching it. Which has resulted in a consultant ending a Consultation abruptly because I queried her advice. So am probably a doctors nightmare patient now.

 

[jjraak]

Thank you. It wasn't good treatment but it was also partly my fault for being so gullible and believing what the doctor told me was true. I definitely question everything I am told now and won't accept any treatment without fully researching it. Which has resulted in a consultant ending a Consultation abruptly because I queried her advice. So am probably a doctors nightmare patient now.

RESPECT.

To paraphrase to my mind, the most famous NON president Ever ...

" We won't go quietly into the night....."

“We can’t be consumed by our petty differences anymore.
We will be united in our common interests.
and we will once again be fighting for our freedom …
Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution …
We are fighting for our right to live. To exist.”

We will not go quietly into the night!
We will not vanish without a fight!
We’re going to live on! We’re going to survive!’

https://people.com/celebrity/independence-day-speech-the-story-behind-bill-pullmans-big-moment/

 

[Mike d]

Still a timeless film @jjraak

 

[Alexandra100]

My Diabetes nurse said that with an hba1c of 125 it was likely that I was T2D for more than 20 years. So, what I am trying to say in a really roundabout way is that every case is different and someone who is newly diagnosed but hasn't had it very long won't be too broken. But someone like me is likely to be quite broken.

In his book "Diabetes Solution" (extracts on his website) Dr Bernstein recounts his life with uncontrolled T1 over more than 20 years from age 11 when he was diagnosed. By his account he was in terrible shape when he stumbled on home glucose testing and a low carb diet. He tells how gradually many of his most serious complications have reversed, as he maintained normal blood glucose, leaving him a fit and healthy 85 year old, but some could not be cured. I hope you will find this as encourging as I do.
http://www.diabetes-book.com/bernstein-life-with-diabetes/

 

[Krystyna23040]

In his book "Diabetes Solution" (extracts on his website) Dr Bernstein recounts his life with uncontrolled T1 over more than 20 years from age 11 when he was diagnosed. By his account he was in terrible shape when he stumbled on home glucose testing and a low carb diet. He tells how gradually many of his most serious complications have reversed, as he maintained normal blood glucose, leaving him a fit and healthy 85 year old, but some could not be cured. I hope you will find this as encourging as I do.
http://www.diabetes-book.com/bernstein-life-with-diabetes/

You are right this is very encouraging. I do have his book - I did read it when I started low carb but had forgotten that he had serious complications which he has mostly reversed. I will re-read it again as his story is very inspiring.

 

[Krystyna23040]

Y

RESPECT.

To paraphrase to my mind, the most famous NON president Ever ...

" We won't go quietly into the night....."

“We can’t be consumed by our petty differences anymore.
We will be united in our common interests.
and we will once again be fighting for our freedom …
Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution …
We are fighting for our right to live. To exist.”

We will not go quietly into the night!
We will not vanish without a fight!
We’re going to live on! We’re going to survive!’

https://people.com/celebrity/independence-day-speech-the-story-behind-bill-pullmans-big-moment/

A very apt quote - I really like it.

 

[Alexandra100]

In his book "Diabetes Solution" (extracts on his website) Dr Bernstein recounts his life with uncontrolled T1 over more than 20 years from age 11 when he was diagnosed. By his account he was in terrible shape when he stumbled on home glucose testing and a low carb diet. He tells how gradually many of his most serious complications have reversed, as he maintained normal blood glucose, leaving him a fit and healthy 85 year old, but some could not be cured. I hope you will find this as encourging as I do.
http://www.diabetes-book.com/bernstein-life-with-diabetes/

I just came across this brief video where Dr B answers the question,
"Can Type 2 diabetes be reversed?"

 

[Caprock94]

I just cam across this brief video where Dr B answers the question,
"Can Type 2 diabetes be reversed?"

It's encouraging to hear that beta cell recovery is achievable. Roy Taylor has come to the same conclusion in the Newcastle study. I wonder how early "catching it early" has to be for most?

 

[Oldvatr]

It's encouraging to hear that beta cell recovery is achievable. Roy Taylor has come to the same conclusion in the Newcastle study. I wonder how early "catching it early" has to be for most?

The old theory about the T2D progression was that the pancreas insulin output declined because the beta cells died off. There was debate on whether it is due solely from glucose contamination or due to exhaution of the cells being caned to overproduce insulin. There was a general feeling that when theu are gone, they're gone.

Current thinking by Taylor et al is that it is fatty deposits in and around the pancreas that is reducing the capability to produce insulin, and there is some evidence coming out now that a diet or lifstyle that reduces the effect of NAFLD around the pancreas will allow the cells to recover and work again.

I can accept this latter story since in my case I did get clinical remission this year after over 25 years as a T2D with poor control. 4 Years ago I was being told I had to start insulin treatmen since my pancreatic output had failed. I immediately went on a lifestyle change that has proven to me and my consultant and GP that my pancreas is working again, and although not currently in remission, I am getting close to the point where I was and certainly getting numbers in the 'normal' range daily without too much sweat. What I cannot say is what ratio of live cells vs dead cells I have in my body now. Some permanent damage is most likely but my T2D does seem to have been due to Insulin Resistance, not deficiency.

 

[Alexandra100]

It's encouraging to hear that beta cell recovery is achievable. Roy Taylor has come to the same conclusion in the Newcastle study. I wonder how early "catching it early" has to be for most?

Yes, I noticed that correspondence too. Very interesting! and for me gives a lot more weight to the Newcastle study. As for how early "catching it early" has to be, I imagine no-one knows. And as no drugs other than maybe insulin are involved here, no-one is going to finance the research.

 

[Veryanxious]

I have a question, let's say that you have insulin resistance marked by high fasting insulin and higher then normal fasting glucose and you manage to lower your numbers (but you are not diabetic) and your fasting insulin and glucose go down to normal levels. Is this change permanent? I'm just wondering if I'll have to stay on this diet forever. Seems so many people are enjoying bread and rice ( im not talking about candy and sweets I don't like these anyway) but never seem to get insulin resistant, so is someone who had once insulin resistance prone to getting it again quickly or once you lower it it takes the same amount of "effort" to make it high again? Or once you lower it you can only rely on complex carbs? Which drives me to another question, how bad is eating complex carbs such as dark breads and wholegrain rice? If you want to up your caloric intake using such would it be counter productive?

Best thing you can do for insulin resistance is fasting. I have found that fasting is something very beneficial even more than keto/carnivore where frequency of food consumption is more.
Amd if you fast you would want to have high nutrition food eventually you will want to eat less carbs, because animal products are more nutritious then any plant products. You will not even think about having bread after some time into fasting.
Fasting is best thing you can do for your health.

 

[jjraak]

I just came across this brief video where Dr B answers the question,
"Can Type 2 diabetes be reversed?"

Nice clip..enjoyed.. thanks for posting.

Not too dissimilar to the decline of some inner city areas
not too long and you can get most of it back up and running pretty quickly.
and encourage people to move back in
leave it for too long, ....

Million dollar question is how long is too long?
But it WAS still a positive message.

 

[Alexandra100]

Current thinking by Taylor et al is that it is fatty deposits in and around the pancreas that is reducing the capability to produce insulin, and there is some evidence coming out now that a diet or lifstyle that reduces the effect of NAFLD around the pancreas will allow the cells to recover and work again.

I'd love to think this would work for me, but as I have to struggle to keep my weight up to a BMI of 16, losing more weight might result in my disappearing altogether. Diabetes is horribly complex, there is no strategy that will work for everyone.

 

[Oldvatr]

I'd love to think this would work for me, but as I have to struggle to keep my weight up to a BMI of 16, losing more weight might result in my disappearing altogether. Diabetes is horribly complex, there is no strategy that will work for everyone.

I was describing the Insulin Resistant form of T2D where the resistance actually stops the insulin coming out of the liver and appears to be an insulin deficiency problem. There is another form of insulin resistance, which is muscle resistance, where the insulin floods the body, but the keys opening the gates in the muscle cells refuse to let it pass into the cell, so the glucose is locked out of the mitrochondia insead. This form of T2D may not respond well to the VLC diet that Tayor uses.

In your case, it may be that the insulin is not being used to store the glucogen form of body fat in the muscles and skin. This may be why the ND dieters find they relapse later, because the muscle IR did not get zapped properly by the liver fat removal, and remained lurking.

When I was younger, there was only muscle IR described by the Krebs Cycle, and the adipose fat aka Metabolic Syndrome followed as a seondary stage.

I think full reversal will only really come when we understand how to deal with both forms of IR since they seem to cohabit a body together.

 

[Caprock94]

I was describing the Insulin Resistant form of T2D where the resistance actually stops the insulin coming out of the liver and appears to be an insulin deficiency problem. There is another form of insulin resistance, which is muscle resistance, where the insulin floods the body, but the keys opening the gates in the muscle cells refuse to let it pass into the cell, so the glucose is locked out of the mitrochondia insead. This form of T2D may not respond well to the VLC diet that Tayor uses.

In your case, it may be that the insulin is not being used to store the glucogen form of body fat in the muscles and skin. This may be why the ND dieters find they relapse later, because the muscle IR did not get zapped properly by the liver fat removal, and remained lurking.

When I was younger, there was only muscle IR described by the Krebs Cycle, and the adipose fat aka Metabolic Syndrome followed as a seondary stage.

I think full reversal will only really come when we understand how to deal with both forms of IR since they seem to cohabit a body together.

Interesting. How do you tell which type of insulin resistance you have? For me, I went low carb and lost 30 pounds. My numbers now stay in range, even with more carbs added back for the most part (not excessive amounts like my old days).

 

[Oldvatr]

I assume I have both. The old way of looking t T2D progression was that IR in the muscles came first. Meds were added to squeeze more insulin out of the pancreas to overcome it a bit, and this led to hyperinsulinemia.. When the body is faced with excess sugars but none getting to the brain, then the body mskes lipids from the excess, which get stored in the liver snd sdipose tissue not the muscles. This then led to metabolic syndrome which in turn filled the pncreas with fat. This fat made the insulin production fall off, but with high bgls then GP;s had the bright idea of insulin treatment. So it went on spiralling round and round until something vital failed, normslly the kidneys or heart, So that used to be the roadmap for T2D progression.

We now know that this progression is not inevitable, and that we can now break the cycle, I am not sure if the old model I described above still carries any water but it fits the perceived pathway as it used to be, It may be that T2D has all the IR variants concurrent in different strengths and that is why what worked for me msy not work for Fred next door. As I said earlier, it may explain why apparent reversal is not permanent because so far we only fix one form of IR, and the holy grail may be to find a way of knocking both of them on the head in one go,

 

[jjraak]

I assume I have both. The old way of looking t T2D progression was that IR in the muscles came first. Meds were added to squeeze more insulin out of the pancreas to overcome it a bit, and this led to hyperinsulinemia.. When the body is faced with excess sugars but none getting to the brain, then the body mskes lipids from the excess, which get stored in the liver snd sdipose tissue not the muscles. This then led to metabolic syndrome which in turn filled the pncreas with fat. This fat made the insulin production fall off, but with high bgls then GP;s had the bright idea of insulin treatment. So it went on spiralling round and round until something vital failed, normslly the kidneys or heart, So that used to be the roadmap for T2D progression.

We now know that this progression is not inevitable, and that we can now break the cycle, I am not sure if the old model I described above still carries any water but it fits the perceived pathway as it used to be, It may be that T2D has all the IR variants concurrent in different strengths and that is why what worked for me msy not work for Fred next door. As I said earlier, it may explain why apparent reversal is not permanent because so far we only fix one form of IR, and the holy grail may be to find a way of knocking both of them on the head in one go,

Cheers @Oldvatr

definitely food for thought.

Nice post.

 

[Veryanxious]

Sorry to quote the other lot but this may be relevant. The damage caused by high blood sugars is often permanent.
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-t...J06mOxWBnkESXlmypqyu61UnCfhem3mRoCJW0QAvD_BwE

There has been research which links sdLDL damage being caused by collisions between glucose molecules and lipids in the blood stream and that further to this the damaged remnants are not cleard as normal used LDL (which is normally cleared by the HDL), and so forms plaque in the arteries. The Triglyceride value in a lipid panel is an indication of the amount of damage risk but is not per se a measure of plaque damage. It is an indication of the remnant particles floating around the blood, and which may attach to plaque deposits in time. It is these remnants that msdr the NHS blsme LDL as the bad guy when in fact it seems to be damaged LDL that is to blame.
So the longer we allow high glucose levels to happen, then the worse the damage becomes, and the body does not hve a simple mechanism for removing these damaged remnants, The kidneys do their best, but by this time the remnants are in effect alien to our bodies, and so get dealt wth by the endocrine system treating them as inflammation like a virus, which is why diabetes is related strongly with the immune system.

I am worried now. I had triglycerides level of 220 for 3 years. I didn't pay any attention to them as i did not have insulin resistance back then. And i was 24 yrs old so i thought i was invincible. Since last year they are 75 but do you have any idea how much damage would have happend to the arteries?. I do get lots of symptoms i have been to two cardiologist and they said i am young, women, not diabetes, my test are fine so i don't have any heart problems.
I am now underweight and i don't eat junk. I do intermittent fast almost daily. Whenever i fast i loose 1kg a day. So i had to stop daily fast too.

 

[Oldvatr]

Triglycerides are measured differently un the USA, so here is a article to help us in the UK understand your posting.
https://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/lowering-triglyceride-levels#1

Here in the UK we tend to talk about these fats as lipids, which is in effect parcels of triglycerides and other micronutrients where the package casing is to protect the fats from the blood which is largely water based. In my discussion post you quoted the term trigs is not the lipids as just mentioned, but actually loose triglycerides that have escaped from the parcel and are loose cannonballs. In a UK lipid panel this is labelled as Trigs, and give an indication of the anount of damage occurrug in the arteries. Your trigs in your post equate to our LDL values but using mg/dl scaling. So your 75 converts to our LDL of 4.1

I realise that the old way of thinking of lipids had LDL as the measure of risk, and the trigs were ignored. In the new thinking, LDL is the healthy transport of fat to the body, and trigs is the bad boy. Now trigs is an estimation calculatef by taking the HDL and LDL away from the TC, and it is the remnat of. unrecognised bits i.e. the rubbish left behind that HDL will not hoover up for recycling.

One benefit of a keto or LC diet being reported anecdotally is that the trig value does seem to reduce to a value of 1,0 mmol.l or less while on the diet, whereas the LDL value tends to rise due to the increased fat intake. This is expectd, but GPs have difficulty with that. This would support the hypothesis that it is the collision of glucose molecules with lipids that is causing the damage and plaque.