Is a Vegetarian diet really healthier than Omnivore?

[Pinkorchid]

I really only eat chicken as that is really the only meat I like so I do go to a more vegetarian type diet but would not call myself one even without the chicken I would still be eating cheese, dairy and fish. Vegetables are my love and always have been give me a plate of assorted vegetables with gravy and I am happy so apart from very little potato...I do allow myself a jacket potato or some chips very occasionally.. I do not really cut out any others. I do believe that all the colours of vegetables are important to me to get a balanced a complex of all the vitamins and minerals but many others here would not agree but we all make our own choices when it comes to it. I do not believe a vegan or vegetarian diet is any more unhealthy than a carnivore one

 

[Oldvatr]

I guess this might be one..
https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/14/vega...ing-him-to-eat-raw-plant-based-diet-11147678/

I believe that was the Pritikin diet which is ultra extreme and does not permit supplements.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...children-may-risk-jail-in-italy-idUSKCN10L16Z

Another extreme diet in the news was the Ma-Pi macrobiotic diet
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...-pianesi-wife-death?__twitter_impression=true

These diets do not represent the general vegan movement. There is one area of concern about the NHS advice, and that is the supplementation of iodine. Babies should not be given table salt or iodine supplements intended for adult use. May present a problem if there is a nuclear event nearby.

This seems to sum things up quite well
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/is-a-vegan-diet-safe-for-children#2

 

[Dark Horse]

I guess this might be one..
https://metro.co.uk/2019/11/14/vega...ing-him-to-eat-raw-plant-based-diet-11147678/

Well, if you look at the detail in the article, most of the toddler's nutrition was actually from an animal product - breast milk.

In any case, using a single case to support an argument is rarely a good idea.

 

[Oldvatr]

The main thing I take from Bazian's analysis is this, "Overall, the small total numbers of people in these studies – which likely had highly variable methods, interventions, control diets and outcome assessment – suggests that too little research has been done into plant-based diets to draw firm conclusions about their effects."

Another observation I have is that most of the studies being done on vegetarian or vegan or WFPB diet is being performed by adherents on a closed community (i,e, cohort studies) so do not actually represent the wider world. I name specifically ADVENT, ADVENT 2 , EPIC-OXFORD, HARVARD Nurses Study (although in this case they did make the raw data available for independant research, and this showed that two or more people examining the same database can reach totally opposing conclusions). We now see it coming forward in the EAT Lancet study, and the subsequent environmentalist support for a severely restricted vegetarian world diet being proposed.

Having said that, it is obvious that studies carried out by omnivores are also open to bias, especially when funded by a large vested interest, such as medical or agribusiness or pharma.

 

[Honeyend]

@Honeyend that is quite a sweeping statement. Please could you provide some supporting evidence to back up the opinion?

Its New Years Eve, so I will not be able to provide the references I am quoting but here is just one study, there are so many of them,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27733529

 

[Oldvatr]

Its New Years Eve, so I will not be able to provide the references I am quoting but here is just one study, there are so many of them,
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27733529

I was more interested in the Plant Based diet for Type 2 diabetes that is referenced in the also searched section. That is a rework of the data from ADVENT 2, the Thai Buddhist monks study, and the Harvard Nurses study. All three of those studies have been shown to be poorly executed, and heavily biassed. Even the BBC has done a program on the Buddhist Monks survey a month or so ago. This study that conjoins all three to give the PROOF needed to persuade me to become vegetarian is using BMI as the indicator to Risk of developing T2D. So once again they are using the obesity causes diabetes argument. Nope. No causal effect proven for that hypothesis at all. There are loads of people with obese BMI's that do not have T2D, and loads of TOFI like moi who do. [expletive deleted]

In case the referenced doc goes awol.here is the link to it
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466941/

 

[Mike d]

What worries me about promoting vegan or vegetarian diets as healthy is the effects it may have on developing children and young adults, when we know that good nutrition for them is so important, and animal products are known to improve and support child developement.
When I had my first child you were advised to put them on their front to sleep, because that is what they did in special care baby units. We now know that is is bad for normal babies in a home situation, and can be a cause of cot death. So even if the studies showed an improvement in health for adults with plant based diets, the marketing bosses would most likely transpose it and push it at mums. Every fruit juice is already seen as a healthy drink for children and even if you were not worried about the carbs the acid in the juice is about as good for their teeth as Coke.

Totally agree @Honeyend Sensible and rational comments

 

[Zilsniggy]

I cannot answer the OP's question regarding which diet is healthier.
However, I have not found dairy, eggs, tofu, seitan, mushrooms, greens,... to contain any more carbs because they are eaten as part of a vegetarian diet.
Veggie does not have to be high carb. There are vegans and vegetarians eating low carb diets.

But it's pretty much all highly processed...........much healthier to eat food that hasn't been manufactured through industrial processes.........

 

[Zilsniggy]

just because the elements are vegetarian or keto or whatever.

Keto is not unnatural, in fact, the exact opposite! In fact it would be very difficult to properly formulate a vegan/vegetarian keto diet, mainly because you can't really get all the nutrients required.

Keto is NOT processed food, exactly the opposite!

 

[Lotties]

Keto is not unnatural, in fact, the exact opposite! In fact it would be very difficult to properly formulate a vegan/vegetarian keto diet, mainly because you can't really get all the nutrients required.

Keto is NOT processed food, exactly the opposite!

You can do most diets on processed foods if you wish, including keto.
Also, I never said unnatural, I said alien. They don't mean the same thing.

 

[Oldvatr]

======>. However, this thread is not about keto or low carb (or vegan), it is questioning the relative healthiness of a vegetarian diet and, given certain Eastern cultures are dedicated to vegetarian diets without related health problems, they can do so without missing nutrients.

By Eastern cultures, then the evidence is often corrupted. I am referring specifically here regarding the Thai monks study that was recently conducted by one team and was claimed to support the vegetarian WOE as being healthiest. Unfortunately, further research by another team found that the monks were eating an omnivore diet with significant animal content, and was not vegan as had been claimed. The Euronews channel showed a report on this last month. Again, the Okinawans are often held up to be healthiest because they follow a vegan diet. Further studies have shown that this is not the case, and Okinawan diet is mainly based on pigs. A similar study into New Guinea tribes has similar claims and counter claims. There is a similar mistake made that New Delhi being mainly buddhist are a vegetarian society, but this is incorrect. Even the Chinese are held to be mainly vegetarian, but China is the worlds biggest importer of pigs for domestic use,

 

[Oldvatr]

You can do most diets on processed foods if you wish, including keto.
Also, I never said unnatural, I said alien. They don't mean the same thing.

My brother in law stayed with us recently, and he is vegan. He bought his own milk and cheeses with him. I looked at the labels out of curiosity, and was amazed at the chemical additives that had to be included to fortify them in the same way bread is fortified, and I had difficulty identifying any of those additives as being natural products. So I say these products are processed and to me they are indeed alien. They also tasted foul IMO.

 

[Oldvatr]

@Oldvatr I was not referring to any studies, corrupt or otherwise.
I believe it has been said a number of times on this thread that vegetarian, vegan, omnivore, .... can all be as healthy as the consumer desires

Provided said consumer is properly advised on chosen diet. I saw an interview on Sky this morning with one of the founders of the Veganuary charity. The interviewer asked about the known deficiencies in the vegan WOE, and the response was that the diet is perfectly ok for everybody, and especially pregnant women and babies. There was no support for newbie vegans on their website, nor on the Vegan Society website answering these questions apart from the B12 one. Of the 330,000 people expected to sign up as fully paid up vegans this coming month, most will be unaware of what a healthy vegan diet requires in the long term.

Yes it is possible to be healthy on the diet but it needs much more careful research and effort to do in the long term without suffering health issues caused by malnourishment, which is what deficiences in essential nutrients should be called. There is a socking great elephant in the room, and vegans seem unwilling to discuss it sensibly.

As an aside (I am the OP) the veganuary guy is claiming that January will save the life of over 1 million animals. Sorry, not technically true. Those animals alive now will die, be sure of that. Since they are farm animals bred solely for food (and livelihood of the farmer), then as soon as they become unusable they will be culled and used for petfood. If this makes the farmer insolvent then they will not be replaced. So it is not going to save lives, but will stop them being born. A minor technicality.

Edit to add: I started this subthread with a study, and I asked for studies the support that claim. Do you have any you could share here? Studies are important since that is what evidence based decisions depend on. Without the studies then it is just down to the bloggers and guru's of this world to propagate their theories and make money for them. Independant research is essential, so please do not be so dissmissive of it.

 

[lucylocket61]

@Oldvatr I was not referring to any studies, corrupt or otherwise.
I believe it has been said a number of times on this thread that vegetarian, vegan, omnivore, .... can all be as healthy as the consumer desires

I agree up to a point as I don't feel there is enough information being promoted very visibly on the nutritional requirements and how to formulate healthy food plans for a vegan especially.

I see lots of wild claims in the press and media. These claims are unchallenged as the whole vegan idea has become hijacked by the emotions around climate change, instead of having to adhere to responsible reporting regulations.

This emotive reporting and virtue signalling continues to make informed choices hard due to the absence of hard facts and public awareness of the pitfalls they need to avoid.

 

[andromache]

I didn't eat meat for over 30 years, for various reasons, but I eat meat now, I also raise animals for meat, so I think I can understand both sides of the arguement.
I get annoyed with the healthy claim, when I stopped eating meat I did a lot of research and found out how to balance the protien sources, most veggie food sold in shops is deficent in compleat protiens, and rely on dairy products. They are often full of sugar and of course to make you feel full, cheap pasta, potatoe or rice, which makes a huge profit for the producer. The pasta in a cheesy sauce, wrapped in a tortilla wrap, is a hightlight of making a huge profit out of the cheapest ingredients.
On some forums I have challanged the healthy claim, and its amazing how many people are just parroting the hype and when you provide them information, they have no answer and then waffle on about carbon foot print, we were not designed to eat meat, and the welfare aspect.
There is so little understanding of the nutrition to start off with, and then most of it now seems to be based on slanted reporting of data, its no wonder everyone thinks a glass of orange juice and a bowl of cereal is a healthy balanced breakfast, or even better a cereal bar because you can eat it on the go and be charged extra for it.

My go to store of facts in a simple form on meat, is

and my question to anyone saying a veggie or vegan diet is healthy, are you sure you are going to eat 'compleat' protiens and are they aware of the special needs of children, the sick and the elderly.
There are so many studies on the interenet which say that basically the easiest way to make sure people get good nutrition is to eat meat, you can play top trumps with them, even when they quote studies that are supposed to show it causes cancer and heart disease.

Amen to all that. I used to be vegetarian too, so have been on a similar journey. Knowing how much better my system does on meat, I won't be going back. Like you, I am actively interested and involved in food animal welfare - I want to know how an animal lived and died to feed me because that stuff matters. But it is a separate issue from the human health and nutrition issue: it makes me cross when people elide the two in the way you describe.

 

[Resurgam]

One of my interests is primate evolution, and it has been for some 50 years. I met the man who discovered 'Lucy' in my late teens.
One explanation for the evolution of our brain, which is large for our size, particularly for the size of our digestive systems, is that we ate animals to supply the nutrients required to grow a large brain. This might have involved other Humans, and it times of deprivation children might have been killed first due to their high requirement of meat or fish - deprivation could have resulted in problems at a later stage in life.
My own children were always fed on a high protein and fat, fairly low carb diet, and they have always been kind, thoughtful, caring, slow to anger, (I know I'm the parent and naturally biased), I do wonder if some of the problems with the delinquent are down to their diet at important stages in their development.

 

[Jaylee]

One of my interests is primate evolution, and it has been for some 50 years. I met the man who discovered 'Lucy' in my late teens.
One explanation for the evolution of our brain, which is large for our size, particularly for the size of our digestive systems, is that we ate animals to supply the nutrients required to grow a large brain. This might have involved other Humans, and it times of deprivation children might have been killed first due to their high requirement of meat or fish - deprivation could have resulted in problems at a later stage in life.
My own children were always fed on a high protein and fat, fairly low carb diet, and they have always been kind, thoughtful, caring, slow to anger, (I know I'm the parent and naturally biased), I do wonder if some of the problems with the delinquent are down to their diet at important stages in their development.

Hi @Resurgam ,

Regarding documented evidence of "canibalism?"

I don't feel in the early stages of human evolution that we (as an emerging species) were that "self aware" Regarding diet & the development of offspring.
A more common explaination would be in times of famine & out of sheer desperation. The strong ate the weak to survive..

 

[Listlad]

Just as a point of note, cannibalism is still going on today in Indonesian Papua New Guinea.

 

[Oldvatr]

Hi @Resurgam ,

Regarding documented evidence of "canibalism?"

I don't feel in the early stages of human evolution that we (as an emerging species) were that "self aware" Regarding diet & the development of offspring.
A more common explaination would be in times of famine & out of sheer desperation. The strong ate the weak to survive..

forthwith some official documentation
https://www.openbible.info/topics/cannibalism

 

[Oldvatr]

Just found this treatise on dietary deficiencies that we should all be made aware of since it discusses the bioavalability of essential nutrients that our diet is supposed to supply.

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/vegan-diet-nutrient-deficiencies

It is not from a source that I recognise, but the author does pull together a load of information that I have seen elsewhere so it seems to be a valid review of current knowledge.