Is a Vegetarian diet really healthier than Omnivore?

[AloeSvea]

Yes, it does seem your gov is trying to barter its catbon footprint away by borrowing heavily from the Paris Agreement carbon capture scheme. Looking at the 2050 target of zero emissions, it seems they will fall short by about 47% for biogenic methane and will have to take other measures as yet unspecified.
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2019/0136/latest/LMS183848.html

Of course, if everybody else is cutting their meat imports to zero, then your market will shrink, and there will be a natural reduction in output accordingly. I do not think you will be immune from the fallout. especially if the carbon trading scheme is not able to absorb the levels of borrowing due to other players not meeting their targets either.

Honestly, the amount of meat from culling herds and flocks due to a shrinking overseas market would merely keep us in meat stores for decades to come! (The wonders of refigeration?) I can't imagine the domestic market shrinking much. And - Great Britain is not our biggest market by far - that ended in the 1960s some time. Seriously - we are not going zero meat any time soon, ditto no fish and seafood.

I am not kidding when I talk about a black market in meat if our government here tried such a thing on. We have a highly active blackmarket in a certain horticultural item that grows exceedlingly well here, due to our climate and amount of bush etc. I would imagine such a thing in sheep and cows would be the case as well

As for environmental targets - that is a whole other discussion. Half of all emmissions here are from fossil-fuel run vehicles, like most places? That would be the initial target I would imagine, when banning. And if it isn't... well... (I hesitate to state what I think might/will/highly likely to happen...) (We would have to have a good yacker at one of your country's delightful pubs on that subject!)

 

[DCUKMod]

Folks, I'd ask you refresh yourselves with the OP, topic and location of this thread.

 

[Listlad]

“So, I repeat the question I raise so many times in situations like this - does anyone have some real science evidence that supports the claim that vegetarian is healthier for me as a T2D on Orals. *I would have posted thi into the thread I started specifically to discuss that question , but it was closed down. So no discussion allowed on this, merely any links to reports.”

Maybe there aren’t any such reports. Maybe we shouldn’t look at it as an “either or“ and just be at peace with the two choices at our disposal.

 

[lucylocket61]

Here in the UK, the government is looking to ban wood burning stoves and open fires in homes.

Only for unseasoned wood. Burning seasoned wood is fine.

 

[therower]

@Listlad .
The thread title is so easy to answer.
Yes and or maybe if you’re a vegetarian.
No and or maybe not if you’re an omnivore.
It’s only opinions that have got the thread this far.
Peace on the forum? More chance of a cure for diabetes .

 

[Oldvatr]

In my OP I posed a very simple question, and made it clear I was looking for evidence to support the claims made by both sides of the discussion.. As has just been pointed out, we have had no independent or verifiable evidence presented for the vegetarian case. I have presented arguments that the vegetarian and vegan diets are nutritionally deficient, and potentially injurious to health, but these have not been soundly rebutted or challenged in a manner that could be adjudicated upon.

So I now declare that I have not been convinced that the vegetarian or vegan diet is a healthier option for me, and I cannot in all honesty recommend it to anyone on the grounds of health or wellbeing. To me it becomes a simple matter of conviction and faith but not supported for health reasons, and I will continue to point out that IMHO these diets are potentially dangerous if not implemented in a proper manner, Sadly the current rush to enforce Veganuary etc in the media is blinding the general public, who are encouraged to take up this lifestyle without being given proper advice.

We can expect in the near future fortified convenience foods for the masses, but in conclusion, I draw your attention to a novel set in the year 2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

So far it is believed to be pure fiction. Let us hope it remains so.

 

[therower]

@Oldvatr . So now you have your answer to your question.
NO.

 

[Oldvatr]

@Oldvatr . So now you have your answer to your question.
NO.

That is my now (uninformed) opinion born out of several threads on this forum. It is not the general public at large so is a small sample cohort (i.e. PWD's) with a vested interest. Nonetheless, I have managed to do research outside the forum that reinforces my decision here. I also have my own personal experiences and local knowledge in the form of friends and family.

 

[therower]

@Oldvatr. As long as you are satisfied with what you now know then all should be good in your world.

 

[Listlad]

.....I draw your attention to a novel set in the year 2022
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

So far it is believed to be pure fiction. Let us hope it remains so.

Good movie that. Maybe more prophetic than I thought.

 

[Oldvatr]

@Oldvatr. As long as you are satisfied with what you now know then all should be good in your world.

Not really. Not with the sword of Damocles hanging in the air over all of us
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46865204
The EAT Lancet diet is more severe, but it was presented to the EU CCC and the United Nations where it received a standing ovation at both meetings.

Eat Lancet diet has officially been adopted by Brazil, the Phillipines. and initially the EU but has since been retracted by the WHO and the EU who now have set up a special Comission to advise instead. There is hope, but it is only a slim one, that we will work out a decent compromise. But the UK looks set for a 20% reduction this year.

 

[lucylocket61]

We are all different, and react to dietary choices in different ways.

I would like to point out that the lack of evidence for the benefits of vegan and vegetarian diet may mean it is too soon to know. Especially in regards to the new foods available to them.

I know several healthy vegans, now in their seventies. There have been too few to see a clear picture and produce scientific data instead of anecdata.

As far as I am concerned, the jury is still out.

 

[Listlad]

This isn’t really a conclusion to the question posed, as the hypothesis is based on one or two assumptions which may or may not hold. However to change the underlaying assumptions posed is to digress from the thread. So the conclusion has to be to agree with the opening poster but only if the assumptions are correct.

 

[Listlad]

We are all different, and react to dietary choices in different ways.

I would like to point out that the lack of evidence for the benefits of vegan and vegetarian diet may mean it is too soon to know. Especially in regards to the new foods available to them.

I know several healthy vegans, now in their seventies. There have been too few to see a clear picture and produce scientific data instead of anecdata.

As far as I am concerned, the jury is still out.

Yes, the jury is still out, for the reasoning I gave in my previous post.

 

[therower]

Not really. Not with the sword of Damocles hanging in the air over all of us
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-46865204
The EAT Lancet diet is more severe, but it was presented to the EU CCC and the United Nations where it received a standing ovation at both meetings.

Eat Lancet diet has officially been adopted by Brazil, the Phillipines. and initially the EU but has since been retracted by the WHO and the EU who now have set up a special Comission to advise instead. There is hope, but it is only a slim one, that we will work out a decent compromise. But the UK looks set for a 20% reduction this year.

But know you’re bringing the whole world into discussion. Unfortunately the whole world share different views and beliefs and no matter how hard and loud you bang a particular drum not all will like the beat. This is what makes us human. We have to allow others to bang their drums.

 

[Oldvatr]

But know you’re bringing the whole world into discussion. Unfortunately the whole world share different views and beliefs and no matter how hard and loud you bang a particular drum not all will like the beat. This is what makes us human. We have to allow others to bang their drums.

So long as the drum is not being used to drown out and stifle the others. We have had quite a good discussion in this thread, and it is my hope that others reading it will be able to make their own informed choices. Certainly I know @lucylocket61 has joined me when we discussed the vitamins and minerals in more depth in another thread, and has come to her own conclusions. I have now come to my own conclusion, and unless new information arises to change my mind, then I will plot my own course for as long as I can.

 

[jjraak]

I fear its the Brexit scenario repeating, but most likely on a smaller scale.

A 'few'... Could be many millions BUT is probably NOT the majority are making the most noise.

And while those most noisy get the attention..( and usually there own way)
If it ever gets put to the test, as in Brexit and the recent election,.. All those post on Facebook opinions and all that noise... Is just noise.

I fear @Oldvatr is more correct then yourself, @therower , with respect.

Their is no one banging 'our' drum in places that do the listening and the deciding.

The head long rush to change our diets world wide, are not allowing for the concerns and anxieties expressed here .

So the banging of some drums is louder, and the decisions, once made 'could' cause irreparable damage to us all.. Now and for future generations.

And to allay any mod concerns.
The subject title applies.

If the premise, IS A VEGETARIAN diet HEALTHIER.
that case has NOT been made.

Yet here we are, on the brink of changing a way of life, that may have a multitude of unforseen consequences.

So I think ..on topic.

 

[Oldvatr]

I fear its the Brexit scenario repeating, but most likely on a smaller scale.

A 'few'... Could be many millions BUT is probably NOT the majority are making the most noise.

And while those most noisy get the attention..( and usually there own way)
If it ever gets put to the test, as in Brexit and the recent election,.. All those post on Facebook opinions and all that noise... Is just noise.

I fear @Oldvatr is more correct then yourself, @therower , with respect.

Their is no one banging 'our' drum in places that do the listening and the deciding.

The head long rush to change our diets world wide, are not allowing for the concerns and anxieties expressed here .

So the banging of some drums is louder, and the decisions, one made 'could' cause irreparable damage to us all.. Now and for future generations.

And to allay any mod concerns.
The subject title applies.

If the premise, IS A VEGETARIAN diet HEALTHIER.
that case has NOT been made.

Yet here we are, on the brink of changing a way of life, that may have a multitude of unforseen consequences.

So I think ..on topic.

A quick aside. I saw on the news last night that Extinction Rebellion has been classified as a terrorist organisation by the Met police.

 

[jjraak]

Though the police I believe have now rescinded that advise.

 

[Oldvatr]

Though the police I believe have now rescinded that advise.

It seems so since the morning news was not covering it. I think only Parliament or the Home Office can proscribe such organisations.