HCLF for T2D

[Veryanxious]

Who says that they could "tolerate" carbs before... if that's what made them sick in the first place..?

That is so wrong.
Constant high calorie, combination or high fat high carbs and with other factors cause metabolic imbalances.

 

[bulkbiker]

That is so wrong.
Constant high calorie, combination or high fat high carbs and with other factors cause metabolic imbalances.

Proof please?
Or have you been taken in by the Barnards and Gregers too?

 

[Veryanxious]

Proof please?
Or have you been taken in by the Barnards and Gregers too?

No sir, i belong to high carb eating society. I have family members like my grand father, my mother who never ate more calories then they require and are still in good shape with not a single requirement of medicine. I have never seen them eating high fat, may be once in a month they would eat paneer. Regular diet includes rotis, dal , rice and sbzi and some sweet. My own mother is 58 and no medicine till date.
I have seen people who ate lots of sweets and have heart problems, diabetes. Its about energy balance.
I am here looking to find something which suits me and get me out of this problem. I myself have tried meat based which you know. Inspite of having perfect blood markers, i didn't feel that well.
All i am saying is that it is not as black and white as we portray or we think.
To add on this, my mother or grandfather don't eat out, never had pizza or pasta or cold drinks or cake. Yes indian sweets a lot. But no junk at all. It os very important i guess. Whereas i was living in junk for 5 years when i left home for job. So i know where and why i have metabolic issues.

 

[Lotties]

@Veryanxious Similar to me although I managed to get my consultant to do a random BG. it's marked on my notes as 'Random' but I know it was at least 12hrs fasted.

 

[Listlad]

I have insulin resistance along with low insulin as per my doctor. I don't have diabetes as such because my one time a1c was 6.0% after low carb it never above that. So no official type 2 diabetes. And when i eat carbs i would spike till 160, with fruits i would spike to 180. That is type 2.

Veryanxious’s syndrome isn’t too far removed from my own, that is to say never been declared diabetic because dietary control had been applied before the dizzy heights of the diabetic blood sugar numbers had been reached.

 

[Lotties]

I am wondering if a common factor here may be the lack of PUFA. A Carnivore diet is naturally low in PUFA as is a vegetarian or vegan HCLF non-processed food diet which would avoid heavily processed oils. Add that to the V/V diet a large focus on above ground green veg plus a low focus on fructose-contain fruits, supplementation of B12, a focus on calcium intake and protein balance, I can perhaps see how it can be a workable solution for those wanting to avoid meat; thst sort of diet is naturally low calorie. I know of an ocologist who has eaten a raw vegan diet from birth and has an enviable physiology. But, most takers up of the V/V diet won't give up processed food as the recent hubub about Greggs vegan sausage roll indicates. I personally think that although it may taste like the meat version and be appealing, even to me, it's not something I would eat or advocate eating. My mum's butter-based sausage rolls made in the 70s, now that's another story (drool)

 

[Listlad]

I am wondering if a common factor here may be the lack of PUFA. A Carnivore diet is naturally low in PUFA as is a vegetarian or vegan HCLF non-processed food diet which would avoid heavily processed oils. Add that to the V/V diet a large focus on above ground green veg plus a low focus on fructose-contain fruits, supplementation of B12, a focus on calcium intake and protein balance, I can perhaps see how it can be a workable solution for those wanting to avoid meat; thst sort of diet is naturally low calorie. I know of an ocologist who has eaten a raw vegan diet from birth and has an enviable physiology. But, most takers up of the V/V diet won't give up processed food as the recent hubub about Greggs vegan sausage roll indicates. I personally think that although it may taste like the meat version and be appealing, even to me, it's not something I would eat or advocate eating. My mum's butter-based sausage rolls made in the 70s, now that's another story (drool)

Nice to see some thinking outside of the box.

 

[ziggy_w]

I have insulin resistance along with low insulin as per my doctor. I don't have diabetes as such because my one time a1c was 6.0% after low carb it never above that. So no official type 2 diabetes. And when i eat carbs i would spike till 160, with fruits i would spike to 180. That is type 2.

Hi @Veryanxious,

When did you see these spikes of 160 mg (8.9 mmol) or 180mg/dl (10 mmol)? Was this two hours after eating or was this earlier than this?

The guidelines for an OGTT say that in order to be diagnosed as diabetic, your blood sugars should be in excess of 11 mmol two hours after ingesting the glucose load. So, I am not convinced that what you saw were really diabetic levels.

Did you see these spikes after having embarked on low carb way of eating?

If yes, I agree with @HSSS that this might be due to the last meal effect or physiological insulin resistance (which is reversible) once you start eating carbs again. It is not even unheard of for non-diabetics to spike to this level after food.

There is another thing I am curious about. Did you have the fasting insulin test while low-carbing? Did you know that low-carb lowers circulating insulin in everyone generally? Could the low fasting insulin be a sign that your body didn't require as much insulin rather than a sign that it can't produce enough insulin? It would be interesting to see what your fasting insulin levels are after changing to a high carb low fat way of eating.

This being said, I am keeping my fingers crossed that HCLF works for you. Would be happy if you decide to keep us updated.

 

[Veryanxious]

Hi @Veryanxious,

When did you see these spikes of 160 mg (8.9 mmol) or 180mg/dl (10 mmol)? Was this two hours after eating or was this earlier than this?

The guidelines for an OGTT say that in order to be diagnosed as diabetic, your blood sugars should be in excess of 11 mmol two hours after ingesting the glucose load. So, I am not convinced that what you saw were really diabetic levels.

Did you see these spikes after having embarked on low carb way of eating?

If yes, I agree with @HSSS that this might be due to the last meal effect or physiological insulin resistance (which is reversible) once you start eating carbs again. It is not even unheard of for non-diabetics to spike to this level after food.

There is another thing I am curious about. Did you have the fasting insulin test while low-carbing? Did you know that low-carb lowers circulating insulin in everyone generally? Could the low fasting insulin be a sign that your body didn't require as much insulin rather than a sign that it can't produce enough insulin? It would be interesting to see what your fasting insulin levels are after changing to a high carb low fat way of eating.

This being said, I am keeping my fingers crossed that HCLF works for you. Would be happy if you decide to keep us updated.

Hi, thanks. My fingers are crossed too that hclf works for me. I wouldnot have to deviate much from my traditional diet.
Yes you questions are valid, my c peptide was low on low carb diet it was mainly fasting insulin. I have c peptides checked twice.
Once my FBG was 91 with c peptide was below normal range 0.71. 2nd my FBG was 97 with c peptide of 0.81, not much difference, when i had 97 FBG i ate some dal and some veggies night before. I was low carb but not keto.
I wanted to get simulated c peptides but doctors are denying, will wait for hba1c on high carb diet.
It would be interesting.
To add 180 was highest i ever saw. It was when i ate one very big ripe mango when i was low carb, i did drop to 87 after 2.5 hours though, still remember those no. As it was very unusual.

 

[Veryanxious]

Hi, thanks. My fingers are crossed too that hclf works for me. I wouldnot have to deviate much from my traditional diet.
Yes you questions are valid, my c peptide was low on low carb diet it was mainly fasting insulin. I have c peptides checked twice.
Once my FBG was 91 with c peptide was below normal range 0.71. 2nd my FBG was 97 with c peptide of 0.81, not much difference, when i had 97 FBG i ate some dal and some veggies night before. I was low carb but not keto.
I wanted to get simulated c peptides but doctors are denying, will wait for hba1c on high carb diet.
It would be interesting.

I am wondering if a common factor here may be the lack of PUFA. A Carnivore diet is naturally low in PUFA as is a vegetarian or vegan HCLF non-processed food diet which would avoid heavily processed oils. Add that to the V/V diet a large focus on above ground green veg plus a low focus on fructose-contain fruits, supplementation of B12, a focus on calcium intake and protein balance, I can perhaps see how it can be a workable solution for those wanting to avoid meat; thst sort of diet is naturally low calorie. I know of an ocologist who has eaten a raw vegan diet from birth and has an enviable physiology. But, most takers up of the V/V diet won't give up processed food as the recent hubub about Greggs vegan sausage roll indicates. I personally think that although it may taste like the meat version and be appealing, even to me, it's not something I would eat or advocate eating. My mum's butter-based sausage rolls made in the 70s, now that's another story (drool)

Never research about PUFA, i have heard alot about it though. I will read about.

 

[Brunneria]

I don't have diabetes as such because my one time a1c was 6.0% after low carb it never above that. So no official type 2 diabetes. And when i eat carbs i would spike till 160, with fruits i would spike to 180. That is type 2.

No it is not.
You may find it very useful to read up on the actual diagnostic criteria for T2 diabetes before making any further such claims.

In the meantime, can everyone please be aware that this is a thread on whether HCLF works for T2 diabetics.

@Veryanxious you are welcome to discuss your own diagnostic situation on another of your various threads on the subject, but continuing the discussion here would be a derailment.

 

[Listlad]

I have just deleted my post owing to the above post.

 

[Listlad]

This guy advocates HCLF for reversal of T2D.

No backup of science but recommends avoiding processed food which I agree with. Otherwise not so much. I spent 3 years eating this way but still have IR and poor metabolic response to carbs along with deranged liver enzymes in tests (ALT & AST) Raw fruit and veg(form of HCLF) did get rid of my thrush symptoms within 2 weeks and keep my weight stable (but no loss). It was hard work to get 50g protein for me, and calcium. Hard to avoid seed oils if not strict.
High fat AND High Carb together are a definitive problem but I think the are merits to both HCLF & LCHF diets. LCHF seems to suit my body best at the moment.
Is anyone getting good results with HCLF as a pre-diabetic or worse?

Whether this guy is right or wrong, it is always good to listen to another view point.

 

[ziggy_w]

Hi, thanks. My fingers are crossed too that hclf works for me. I wouldnot have to deviate much from my traditional diet.
Yes you questions are valid, my c peptide was low on low carb diet it was mainly fasting insulin. I have c peptides checked twice.
Once my FBG was 91 with c peptide was below normal range 0.71. 2nd my FBG was 97 with c peptide of 0.81, not much difference, when i had 97 FBG i ate some dal and some veggies night before. I was low carb but not keto.
I wanted to get simulated c peptides but doctors are denying, will wait for hba1c on high carb diet.
It would be interesting.
To add 180 was highest i ever saw. It was when i ate one very big ripe mango when i was low carb, i did drop to 87 after 2.5 hours though, still remember those no. As it was very unusual.

Hi @Veryanxious,

These numbers do actually look quite good, definitely much better than I would probably do after having a big ripe mango (not that I would try it, too afraid).

I wonder if your spikes would be lower after increasing your carbs as your body will probably rev up its insulin production?

 

[HSSS]

That is so wrong.
Constant high calorie, combination or high fat high carbs and with other factors cause metabolic imbalances.

The important words here are other factors eg carbs and genetics to name but two. There is no one definitive cause of metabolic imbalances.

No sir, i belong to high carb eating society. I have family members like my grand father, my mother who never ate more calories then they require and are still in good shape with not a single requirement of medicine. I have never seen them eating high fat, may be once in a month they would eat paneer. Regular diet includes rotis, dal , rice and sbzi and some sweet. My own mother is 58 and no medicine till date.
I have seen people who ate lots of sweets and have heart problems, diabetes. Its about energy balance.
I am here looking to find something which suits me and get me out of this problem. I myself have tried meat based which you know. Inspite of having perfect blood markers, i didn't feel that well.
All i am saying is that it is not as black and white as we portray or we think.
To add on this, my mother or grandfather don't eat out, never had pizza or pasta or cold drinks or cake. Yes indian sweets a lot. But no junk at all. It os very important i guess. Whereas i was living in junk for 5 years when i left home for job. So i know where and why i have metabolic issues.

just because family members are not diagnosed as diabetic it doesn’t mean they are unaffected nor does it mean even if they are fine that you will be too despite similar lifestyles.

You say people eating sweets led to their diabetes but then call it energy balance not carbs. Then say your family eat sweets but aren’t diabetic. So it is complex despite similar diets.

We all need to find what suits us, not just our bgl but our life choices too.

And I think that you’ve answered your tests results by saying they were taken low carb. Perhaps taken on a high carb diet your insulin levels would be more normal, interesting to see if your hb1ac is significantly different. If it’s not then maybe you don’t and never had a huge issue as some here believe or that the new half diet is equally effective as I suspect you’ll believe. I guess the outcome would be the same, reasonable levels. Just down to which way of eating you prefer then. If it is noticeably higher then it comes back to the carbs not the fat. Noticeably lower and maybe there’s something in what you say. Let us know.

 

[Oldvatr]

Fat is an essential nutrient - you could make yourself very ill if you avoid all fat. The brain and nervous system are constructed from and protected by fats - the white tissue of the brain is basically shaped cholesterol.
Eating low fat meats was known to cause problems - it was called rabbit disease or caribou illness as eating only the meat of those animals is not consistent with good health.

This is a very important point being made here, and a zero fat diet can be very harmful indeed, It is only recommended for treating gall bladder and liver irregularities, and should not be sustained.
There have been several studies showing low fat and ultra low fat diets increase mortality risk, Here is one from the Lancet
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...-higher-death-rates-major-lancet-study-finds/

When you restrict fat too much, you lose essential ingredients necessary to make and maintain cell growth, so your body will stop replacing cells, You will not be providing the building blocks of Choline, L Carnitine and ALA, DHA, and Omega-3 but will be relying on the body synthesizing them from EPA and poorer sources of vegetable near equivalents.

Yes it is possible to replace some of these by careful choices of vegetarian foods, and using supplements, but you need to research this very carefully to make sure your intake is not deficient.

 

[Veryanxious]

The important words here are other factors eg carbs and genetics to name but two. There is no one definitive cause of metabolic imbalances.



just because family members are not diagnosed as diabetic it doesn’t mean they are unaffected nor does it mean even if they are fine that you will be too despite similar lifestyles.

You say people eating sweets led to their diabetes but then call it energy balance not carbs. Then say your family eat sweets but aren’t diabetic. So it is complex despite similar diets.

We all need to find what suits us, not just our bgl but our life choices too.

And I think that you’ve answered your tests results by saying they were taken low carb. Perhaps taken on a high carb diet your insulin levels would be more normal, interesting to see if your hb1ac is significantly different. If it’s not then maybe you don’t and never had a huge issue as some here believe or that the new half diet is equally effective as I suspect you’ll believe. I guess the outcome would be the same, reasonable levels. Just down to which way of eating you prefer then. If it is noticeably higher then it comes back to the carbs not the fat. Noticeably lower and maybe there’s something in what you say. Let us know.

Whats are chances that i will stay healthy if i eat something which even my forefathers never had?
I am seeing live example about my mother who is 58, her father in his 80's not eating a single medicine or some diet which people have just recently started.
I have no clue how my body reacts to this much fat. No, I am not saying low carb isn't healthy.
I am not sure if it is healthy for me at this stage.
I have given it a chance for one year. It was not exceptional for me as claimed. It can very well be achieved with vegetarian diet as well.

 

[Lotties]

Interesting evaluation of amino acid requirements in the latter part of the presentation.

Indicates that one needs to be much more careful about where you get your protein as a V/V. I also used to track protein amino acids daily when vegan but was not completely aware of protease inhibitors believing the hype that plant protein is more 'available' mind you you've gotta chew... a lot.

 

[Veryanxious]

Interesting evaluation of amino acid requirements in the latter part of the presentation.

Indicates that one needs to be much more careful about where you get your protein as a V/V. I also used to track protein amino acids daily when vegan but was not completely aware of protease inhibitors believing the hype that plant protein is more 'available' mind you you've gotta chew... a lot.

Never had any prob with plant protien before, there have been whole lot of people who don't eat eggs also and they do fine. I have come across a video which mentions that we don't necessarily need to eat animal protien, i cells eat other dead cells to get that kind of protien.

 

[Goonergal]

Please can I remind everyone that this thread is about the suitability of HCLF for type 2 diabetes. Discussions of other ways of eating without reference to the OP should be taken to another thread.