Prof Taylor on the subject of Reversal.

Mr_Pot

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They can't go back to the diet of the 30's unless we also revert back to the old grains we ate for centuries. The new grains damage us. I hope someone can find the information on the new grains, from the 50's (which made the Chorley wood process possible) and insulin regulation damage. I can't find it now.
According to this list there are 170 countries with a higher percentage incidence of Diabetes than the UK. I am sure they don't all use the Chorleywood process and I am pretty sure some of them don't have a wheat based diet.
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SH.STA.DIAB.ZS/rankings
 

lucylocket61

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Brunneria

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Hi All,

A reminder that this thread is about Professor Taylor on the subject of Reversal, not modern v ancient grains and bread making. Or seed oils. Or historic diets. Or the incidence of diabetes in different countries.

You can always start other threads to discuss these things.
 

Listlad

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I don't understand your point.
There is apparently a big increase in the incidence of Type 2 diabetes in recent decades.
If, instead of eating the modern diet, people ate the diet typical in the 1930's (which had quite a lot of carbs) then the theory is that they wouldn't have developed diabetes due to the lack of processed food, seed oils or whatever.
My assertion was, that there must be some irreversible change, like beta cell decay, that occurs, or we should be able to successfully revert to the 1930's diet that wouldn't have given us the diabetes in the first place. This was in response to @Jim Lahey 's three steps:
1. Overconsumption of excessive glucose leads to furious fat generation.
2. Fat cells run out of capacity to cope (in some this may be obese, in others it may not).
3. Diabetes.
And my comment that in addition to this there must be also be a permanent change if we are still susceptible to diabetes even if we now adopt a 1930's diet.

On the subject of reversal. I think you are right for some people. We all arrived at the same destination but via differing routes. Personally I believe that the whole understanding has not bottomed out yet. We are only part way there. Who knows, in the future we might be looking at several different sub categories of T2 diabetes. In which case differing potentials for reversal might well be the case.
 
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Mr_Pot

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On the subject of reversal. I think you are right for some people. We all arrived at the same destination but via differing routes. Personally I believe that the whole understanding has not bottomed out yet. We are only part way there. Who knows, in the future we might be looking at several different sub categories of T2 diabetes. In which case differing potentials for reversal might well be the case.
Agreed. I didn't become diabetic until I was 68 so I think my pancreas just doesn't work as well as it used to, after all my eyesight isn't what it was and I can't run as fast. Hopefully with a low carb diet my beta cells will work well enough until something else kills me. As you say there may be different routes for reversal but in my case I am unlikely to get younger.
 
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Listlad

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Agreed. I didn't become diabetic until I was 68 so I think my pancreas just doesn't work as well as it used to, after all my eyesight isn't what it was and I can't run as fast. Hopefully with a low carb diet my beta cells will work well enough until something else kills me. As you say there may be different routes for reversal but in my case I am unlikely to get younger.
My underlaying condition may not be reversible at all. But for others it might be. But the commonality might be that LCHF staves it off in the short term in both cases. Jim Lahey’s condition may be truly reversed, who knows, but for another person that might not be the case where their condition is merely managed.
 
M

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The diagnostic criteria for diabetes (type 2) is a failure to maintain glucose homeostasis. Elevated blood glucose. It should actually be elevated glucose and/or insulin dysfunction, but that's a topic for another day. If you do not have elevated glucose, and your insulin profiling is normal, then you do not have diabetes. You cannot have a diagnosable condition if it cannot be pathologically diagnosed. However, that doesn't mean that you can't get it, or that it won't come back if you've already had it. In today's food environment, vigilance is key for all.

If glucose intolerance is diabetes, then every single type 2 on these boards was born diabetic. We know this isn't true. Glucose intolerance only becomes diabetes, or returns to diabetes, if it is inappropriately managed. Using myself as an example, I know for a fact that no doctor on Earth could currently diagnose me as diabetic. At the moment.

Again, this is just my view. Others are free to disagree.
 

Mr_Pot

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The diagnostic criteria for diabetes (type 2) is a failure to maintain glucose homeostasis. Elevated blood glucose. It should actually be elevated glucose and/or insulin dysfunction, but that's a topic for another day. If you do not have elevated glucose, and your insulin profiling is normal, then you do not have diabetes. You cannot have a diagnosable condition if it cannot be pathologically diagnosed. However, that doesn't mean that you can't get it, or that it won't come back if you've already had it. In today's food environment, vigilance is key for all.

If glucose intolerance is diabetes, then every single type 2 on these boards was born diabetic. We know this isn't true. Glucose intolerance only becomes diabetes, or returns to diabetes, if it is inappropriately managed. Using myself as an example, I know for a fact that no doctor on Earth could currently diagnose me as diabetic. At the moment.

Again, this is just my view. Others are free to disagree.
I don't think I was born with glucose intolerance as I ate carbs for 68 years without any problems.
 

Listlad

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Using myself as an example, I know for a fact that no doctor on Earth could currently diagnose me as diabetic. At the moment.

Again, this is just my view. Others are free to disagree.
Yeah but if they sat you down to steak pie, beans and chips for a month then they might.
 
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M

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I don't think I was born with glucose intolerance as I ate carbs for 68 years without any problems.

But you were almost certainly born with the propensity to become diabetic. Over the course of your lifetime you consumed more glucose than you used. Or something happened during your lifetime to make you less able to process carbohydrate. In most people it's a cumulative effect that manifests in midlife. The telltale sign, that we call normal, is the "middle aged spread". In others, something happens during their life that changes their ability to process carbs. The previously mentioned seed oils damaging mitochondria, for example.

It's multifaceted and endlessly nuanced. Nonetheless, if a diagnosis of diabetes cannot be made then you do not have it, irrespective of what happened in the past, or what may happen in the future.
 

Lotties

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I've been getting the impression recently, from podcasts etc, that diabetes is preceded by insulin resistance and that that may be the fundamental issue.
 
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M

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Yeah but if they sat you down to steak pie, beans and chips for a month then they might.

Maybe. Maybe not. Hence "At the moment." Luckily, eating pie and chips for a month is not prescribed by doctors prior to blood tests :D

I've said enough in this topic now. My position is clear. When all's said and done, we all think differently and see life through a different lens. All that matters is that we are happy and healthy. Live long and prosper :nurse:
 

Listlad

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Maybe. Maybe not. Hence "At the moment." Luckily, eating pie and chips for a month is not prescribed by doctors prior to blood tests :D

I've said enough in this topic now. My position is clear. When all's said and done, we all think differently and see life through a different lens. All that matters is that we are happy and healthy. Live long and prosper :nurse:
Well, no, it surely meets the Eatwell target. :D

Anyhow we digress a little. To good health, yours and mine.
 
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Oldvatr

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I've been getting the impression recently, from podcasts etc, that diabetes is preceded by insulin resistance and that that may be the fundamental issue.

I have said this before. The research that led to the Krebs Cycle (aka Citric Cycle) mapped out the pathways of glucose and energy in mitochondria in muscle tissue (not adipose cells) and established the hormone labelling and signalling that was involved. Now they did not manage to identify why these cells became resistant, but did manage to identify IR in the muscle cells as the first step to contracting diabetes. From this came the high glucose, the high insulin demand, and increasing need for insulin to overcome the resistance,

The work by Prof Taylor so far has identified an alternative pathway to diabetes via the adipocytes in the liver and pancreas. In my mind he did not address the questions of muscle IR, so has uncovered another aspect of T2D, (and a way of dealung with it). But if Muscle IR exists, then we do not yet have a cure IMHO. Both pathways will need to be repaired,

I strongly suspect that a breakdown in the hormone signalling system is to blame. It may be seed oils, it does not seem to be carbs on their own, and it seems not to be related to lipid levels either. There is a possible link to thyroid problems it seems and also to leaky gut syndrome, but we do not have the smoking gun yet,

Edit to add: here is a paper on muscle IR, It is not light reading though
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2811436/#__ffn_sectitle.
 
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AloeSvea

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"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy!!!:)"

Not my poor father who had awful bloating/beer gut from what I believe to be grain and grain products such as beer, which he loved and consumed regularly

But that is an aside - sorry moderators! I know you hate this.

Back to Prof Taylor, and various theories of diabetes and its relation to reversal/remission etc. I do refer to Prof Taylor's 'personal fat threshold' rather often, in my mind at least. It fits rather well with the sick fat cells theory (with the fat cells acting as a mass organ, communicating with hormones and so on). So it isn't just how much and where, but how sick those fat cells are, and in what percentage?

My contention for myself has been that I would have to be way leaner than the normal weight I am now (NOT at diagnosis) - to have insulin in a healthy to normal range, and have blood glucose regulation healthy. Evidence from lots of experimentation and testing, a lot of which I have reported on this forum.

The lean would be at high school age levels, which I believe is how Prof Taylor puts it, and there is just no way I could function normally with a normal active, working and socialising life keeping that skinny. So! I continue to have deranged metabolism. And hope LCHF/Keto is creating new healthy fat cells when the old ones are being replaced bit by bit. We shall see! (I am prepared for too-much-derangement, to ever be healthy, which I am not.)

A bit scary offering my health as a N=1? Yes! But I guess we all are to some degree? If you think about what we are like discussing our ways of eating, sustainability of it etc to the nth degree like we do (and understandably!) (I still have a couple of ways of eatings I could experiment with, for instance, and where to get support for those but in here?)
 
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