And so it begins: Eat less meat or we’ll make you.

[lucylocket61]

But let’s also remember that good debating is passionate

Totally agree, but sticking to facts is also needed.

 

[Dr Snoddy]

Sorry, i think thst is an oversimplifcation. If I go to my local fast food emporium and order a standard beefburger, I get all the proteins, amino acids, B vitamins, and some important minerals that my body needs and wants. If I go to same emporiium and grab a plant based variant, then I lose many of those nutrients. It does not matter if it is Quorn, Pea or Soya based, these are not 'complete' foods. I will have to add supplemental products to ensure I have the right mix.

I do not know what is in an Impossible burger. I cannot tell which of the elements are missing, that I will have to source from somewhere else. Similarly I do not know which plant based foods I need to eat to supply what is missing. But my single beefburger solves all that for me.

For example, I need to think also about Vitamins A, D3, K2 Omega-3, DHA and EPA. calcium, haeme iron, choline, taurine, iodine, sodium and potassium. These all come with the beefburger inclusive. A vegan burger is not a substitute for a standard burger - I don't care what it tastes like or smells like, or if it bleeds like - it is nutritionally deficient, compared to what I am accustomed to eating today. As I have pointed out the added heme iron in a single Impossible Burger pattie is twice the daily total recommended for a male. This means I can overdose on iron intake.

Personally I would not eat either!

 

[Dr Snoddy]

No. I can't. I have tried.

I can't eat seeds and nuts. Legumes affect my bowel condition.

How do you suggest I get round those problems?

I would much rather be vegan, for ethical reasons. I am mainly vegatarian. But the threat to dairy, as a consequence of the big reduction in cattle, leaves me stuck nutritionally.

Along with many others, including the many who have health issues with soya products.

This is not a taste and choice issue, this is a health issue.

I sympathize entirely and I can appreciate the concerns expressed in most of these posts.

 

[Oldvatr]

I have now read many reports on the CCC website. One thing stands out like the Matterhorn, In all the debates and papers regarding agriculture and diet, there is an immediate acceptance that the ptoposed National Diet is the healthiest and only option for all, and this is the diet that excludes animal protein in the form of livestock or dairy, There is no examination as to whether this assumption is correct. They blithely replace animal proteins with plant based and assume it is the correc solution to the problem. Our needs are certainly not being thought of.

There is one paper on the site that looks at fake meat production to replace animal proteins and it makes very little mention of nutrition comparison, the only mention I could see was that plant based proteins are not as easily absorbed by humans, but there is no feedback that this means that more plant based material will be needed and this will affect plant based source crops too. There is a suitable comment that protein synthesis requires more energy than livestock, and that this means that each industrial facility (factory) will need its own carbon zero energy generators, implying that they could not be supplied from the grid. The Quorn type protein requires a large investment in fermenting space, and is not easily upscaled. The labgrown meat from cyanobacteria does not have viable product yet and is the most energy demanding process. The soybean /pea proteins approach is the most likely but this is the least bioavailable. So they seem to be reducing meat sources now to make biomass instead, but without having a properly thought out strategy on its non animal replacement.

This is why I am worried. They do not seem to be having the proper discussions, and are being panicked into making decisions up front.

 

[HSSS]

Bottom line is that we could all exist on plant-based sources of protein - soy, seitan, Quorn etc if we had to and some cultures have done this successfully for thousands of years.
However, some people just do not want this decision forced upon them and are reluctant to experiment or modify their eating patterns

I wasn’t aware quorn had been in the supermarkets that long! Seriously though which societies have used these proteins exclusively for this long?

And no I don’t want the choice forced upon me, especially when the science behind such a decision is so flawed, unclear and based on profits of those steering said decisions.

I think many of us so vehemently against a forced choice have already made significant changes to our eating patterns since diagnosis/lchf. We are now doing the thing we have found best in out trials. So to blithely blame us as being reluctant to experiment or make changes is inaccurate and quite frankly more than a little insulting.

 

[Oldvatr]

So the Farmers Bill got its second rading tonight in the House of Lords. There were about 30 people present in the chamber. Most of the bill is to cover the Brexit withdrawal and provifion of funding to replacre the loss of the EU Durect Payments scheme that is now withdrawn. One point raied is that the new bill effectively removes the subsidies for hill farmers and moor farmers by 80% this year. This will affect farmers in Somerset and Romney Marsh as well as the Welsh and Scottish areas.

Baroness Young of Scone spoke about the upcoming Agriculture bill that is being prepared that will raise Statutary Instruments to control land use and diversify into supporting forestry for biomass and flood protection measures. This will need approx 3 Billion pounds to be leviesd on the farming community when it becomes law later this year. The provision of food is to be realigned as being classed public goods (i.e. in the National Interest), and taken out of the current food policy committee who will concentrate in changing attitudes and emphasis of the national diet,

The Earl of Devon raised objection about the proposed 20% reduction in livestock farming and also 20% reduction in dairy products this year, This will happen automatically since the EU Direct payment scheme provided overpayments to be claimed for land that is underused (i,e, as pasture and scrubland) and this is not covered by the replacement funding mechanism in the bill. This was raised by Earl Cathcart.

So this bill is not armageddon, but the next bill ( Land Use Bill) will bring in the Climate Change legislation.

 

[Member496333]

So this bill is not armageddon, but the next bill ( Land Use Bill) will bring in the Climate Change legislation.

On the plus side, if it does all go Pete Tong for us, at least we will have the option to open our minds and turn to artificial food


EDIT: To clarify artificial and avoid offending;

 

[Oldvatr]

One thing the papers have picked up on that I missed. Tenant farmers make up a sizeable proportion of the farming community, and these will be severely disadvantaged by the new payment regulations. The problem is that where a farmer claims to have inmproved the environment or the soil then under the EU the money was given to the farmer working the land, but under the new arrangements that money will go to the land owner. Also the move to biomass planting will favour the landowner since they will own the tree stocks.

Farmers will be now be paid by the government if they retire in the next 7 years apparently. But the landowner will still get paid even if the registered land is no longer being worked. The money is no longer tied to productivity, but to land ownership and acreage. No wonder the Lords were happy to declare themselves as 'farmers' as many did. They are MP;s so not working the land themselvs, but are actually farm Owners.

This Farmers Bill is a knee jerk reaction to Brexit, and has been hurried through so that farmers get paid. Fair enough, but there seems to be some hidden power grab clauses added to it that have been voted through on a nod

The Red meat levy that we discussed above is actually including increased legislation to register ALL Livestock births and deaths whereas at the moment it is only the slaughterhouse that provides any records. This is a significant overhead being placed on livestock farmers, and does indicate that this mechanism is to be used for more than an evening up in slaughterhouse taxes.

One thing that was clear was that although there were mentions of livestock farming reductions coming, there were no concerns expressed. It was accepted by all there in the H of L that the plan to change aggriculture to remove livestock from the nations diet was not relevant. The nutrition deficiencies will be addressed in other bills to be presented, so by splitting the message between several bills helps to hide the overall effects from scrutiny. Clever. We are indeed sleepwalking into this.

 

[Oldvatr]

Seitan was only invented in 1961and is a wheat gluten byproduct. It is an allrgenic food source. It is considered to be a macrobiotic diet component, but has recently been adopted by vegans as a bacon substitute. It is not considered to be an effective source of protein since it is wheat based.

Quorn we know and marmite over. it does not replace the animal amino acids, and is vitamin deficient too.

Tofu is classed as a complete protein, but that is not the same as being a complete food. It has the 9 essential B vitamins, but not much else. The source is soy, which contains cyanobacteria and phytols that many find difficult to eat. The Tofu is fermented that does alleviate some of this adverse effect, so it is more acceptable and safer than pure soya. Originally used in asian communities it forms part of their diet, but is not usually the prime source for protein.and in China and Japan the usual source of protein is Pork or fish. The same is apparently true of Okinawians, who also used a pork heavy diet, but who are currently being lauded as beingvegan only, which is incorrect. Similarly hindu monks are claimed to be vegans, but in fact have been demonstrated to being onmivores in a recent BBC documentary.

 

[Member496333]

Seitan was only invented in 1961and is a wheat gluten byproduct. It is an allrgenic food source. It is considered to be a macrobiotic diet component, but has recently been adopted by vegans as a bacon substitute. It is not considered to be an effective source of protein since it is wheat based.

Quorn we know and marmite over. it does not replace the animal amino acids, and is vitamin deficient too.

Tofu is classed as a complete protein, but that is not the same as being a complete food. It has the 9 essential B vitamins, but not much else. The source is soy, which contains cyanobacteria and phytols that many find difficult to eat. The Tofu is fermented that does alleviate some of this adverse effect, so it is more acceptable and safer than pure soya. Originally used in asian communities it forms part of their diet, but is not usually the prime source for protein.and in China and Japan the usual source of protein is Pork or fish. The same is apparently true of Okinawians, who also used a pork heavy diet, but who are currently being lauded as beingvegan only, which is incorrect. Similarly hindu monks are claimed to be vegans, but in fact have been demonstrated to being onmivores in a recent BBC documentary.

All of which is fine if people choose to consume these products. The problem arises when their choices are insidiously eroded by ill-conceived legislation. Of course, as is the way of things, only those who are actually affected tend to care.

 

[Oldvatr]

All of which is fine if people choose to consume these products. The problem arises when their choices are insidiously eroded by ill-conceived legislation. Of course, as is the way of things, only those who are actually affected tend to care.

We are a minority. 4.7m diabetics in uk pop of 63m means current rate is about 7.5%. We have no voice in the matter. I don;t know how many are active on this site, but it is probably less than 10,000 in a year, and the number reding this thread is approx 5,785 and the number reaching this far approx 10. So I am as a voice crying in the wilderness. Who will champion our cause? Who cares? Sorry but it feels like a fait accompli. It will be a global coup - world domination by stealth. No animals were harmed in the making of it.

 

[HSSS]

We are a minority. 4.7m diabetics in uk pop of 63m means current rate is about 7.5%. We have no voice in the matter. I don;t know how many are active on this site, but it is probably less than 10,000 in a year, and the number reding this thread is approx 5,785 and the number reaching this far approx 10. So I am as a voice crying in the wilderness. Who will champion our cause? Who cares? Sorry but it feels like a fait accompli. It will be a global coup - world domination by stealth. No animals were harmed in the making of it.

You’d like to think it’s more than us few that care about having meat taken from their choices. The fact is most people don’t realise or believe it really could happen. It needs some major press coverage.

 

[Member496333]

We are a minority. 4.7m diabetics in uk pop of 63m means current rate is about 7.5%. We have no voice in the matter. I don;t know how many are active on this site, but it is probably less than 10,000 in a year, and the number reding this thread is approx 5,785 and the number reaching this far approx 10. So I am as a voice crying in the wilderness. Who will champion our cause? Who cares? Sorry but it feels like a fait accompli. It will be a global coup - world domination by stealth. No animals were harmed in the making of it.

Of course, but I’m sure you’ll agree this subject is far more than just diabetes.

 

[Oldvatr]

Of course, but I’m sure you’ll agree this subject is far more than just diabetes.

Diabetics are in a unique position to see at first hand the effects of diet on our health. Joe Pub;ic would not recognise a carb if it bit them in the derriere. Nor does Joe public really care, and certainly does not understand the why's and told you so's. Even in this topic thread there seem to be many who do not believe this could happen. Our MP's should be able to make the right choices for the people, no? It is clear the MP's are being kept in the dark just like us. The press is muzzled and getting any sort of discussion has become a rare even, and mainly confined to Twitter where the trolls will get you. I tried Facebook, and my posts were taken down within an hour of posting. I believe child porn has a longer display time.

But as I say again, we have unique skills here within the forum, we are heavily monitored in many aspects of healthcare that most of the world do not get on a regular basis. We have been able to share technical information quite openly here, and discuss its validity. We are entering the endgame this year. and it is forecast to be complete by 2025 so that the mythical 2050 target date is met.

 

[Member496333]

Diabetics are in a unique position to see at first hand the effects of diet on our health. Joe Pub;ic would not recognise a carb if it bit them in the derriere. Nor does Joe public really care, and certainly does not understand the why's and told you so's. Even in this topic thread there seem to be many who do not believe this could happen. Our MP's should be able to make the right choices for the people, no? It is clear the MP's are being kept in the dark just like us. The press is muzzled and getting any sort of discussion has become a rare even, and mainly confined to Twitter where the trolls will get you. I tried Facebook, and my posts were taken down within an hour of posting. I believe child porn has a longer display time.

But as I say again, we have unique skills here within the forum, we are heavily monitored in many aspects of healthcare that most of the world do not get on a regular basis. We have been able to share technical information quite openly here, and discuss its validity. We are entering the endgame this year. and it is forecast to be complete by 2025 so that the mythical 2050 target date is met.

Totally agree. Perhaps I'm coming across as contrarian to your posts but that is most definitely not my intention. It's my thread after all

 

[Barb McD]

Excellent points being made here. My personal choices are mine to make, my truth is just that - My Truth, I own it and like every choice faced daily it’s my consequence. In here I’m not playing truth & consequence alone, I’m very encouraged by the free thinkers on here.

Keep talking, I’m listening along with you all, all aspects are worth reading with consideration.

I’d like to thank you all

 

[Oldvatr]

OK started further research into ewhat is going on. I already posted a link to a CCC report ion diet by Prof Tim Benton
https://www.theccc.org.uk/wp-conten...change-and-diets-a-CCC-discussion-meeting.pdf
So I started looking at the attendee list of who might be reppresnting me at that important meeting
The first two names in Table 2 are out and out vegans, and members of a veg Action Group.

I enclose a report that Judith Batchelor was involved in on diet for the future, and it rtoo has a list of attendees. In that list are mny co founders and directors of Eat Lancet, such as Tim Lang
https://sciencewise.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Food-Systems-Challenges-Evaluation-Report.pdf

I will be filling a spreadsheet on the other members in that Tanle 2, but I suspect those are not the only vegans present at that meeting with CCC.

 

[Oldvatr]

Totally agree. Perhaps I'm coming across as contrarian to your posts but that is most definitely not my intention. It's my thread after all

I do not have a problem with that, I wanted to clarify that we are in a unique place at the moment.

 

[lucylocket61]

Can you just clarify this point for me please?

Is the massive reduction in animal protein availability only the UK? If not, what other countries are also affected?

Also, given that the average age of farmers in Wales is over 60 years old, and only 3% are under 35 years old, closing farms upon retirement in the next 7 years is going to be easy for government. Most of them are tenant farmers.

 

[Barb McD]

For a moment the drama queen in me added on “unique place atm...looking into the abyss, and it looked back