Are We Seeing the Beginning of the End?

[DCUKMod]

Quite. I don’t disagree with your first paragraph.

My faith is in the results gained by a very large pool of people. Not just one individual. And what is more it works for me. So don’t knock it. I think you might need to be reminded that we each have our own ways of dealing with T2 diabetes and due respect should be given accordingly, at least that is what I see repeated frequently. With due respect, perhaps you might respect my own approach too. Thankyou.

Lastly, whilst I have my doubts about advice handed out by some GP’s, yes I do have a little more faith in this particular GP as I do in my own GP and whilst I have gained a lot from this forum, not every post or poster do I hold in the same esteem as I do in said GPs.

Listlad, I have no issue with you dealing with your own condition differently to others. That is entirely your choice.

What I find less comfortable is your repeated inference, usually to new members, that you test, or utilise the Libre, then avoid direct questions surrounding that, deflecting your responses, using other people's data or information. Some could say that is misleading.

 

[Goonergal]

Edit. Btw do remember you are T1. This thread is about T2’s as you may or may not have realised

Listlad. The thread is about the use of the freestyle Libre and what it might mean for blood glucose management. Type 1s and Type 2s (and all others) are equally welcome to post their experiences on the thread. Indeed the opening post in the thread makes reference to both.

 

[Listlad]

Listlad. The thread is about the use of the freestyle Libre and what it might mean for blood glucose management. Type 1s and Type 2s (and all others) are equally welcome to post their experiences on the thread. Indeed the opening post in the thread makes reference to both.

Yes, but a T1 would undoubtedly gain from a differing angle. So would have a slightly differing slant on the benefits.

 

[Listlad]

Listlad, I have no issue with you dealing with your own condition differently to others. That is entirely your choice.

What I find less comfortable is your repeated inference, usually to new members, that you test, or utilise the Libre, then avoid direct questions surrounding that, deflecting your responses, using other people's data or information. Some could say that is misleading.

I have never once sought to mislead. Not once. I object very strongly to your comments. Thanks for ruining a good thread.

What I also object to is the continual virtual harassment on my approach to my own diabetic solution which works.

 

[Jaylee]

Yes, but a T1 would undoubtedly gain from a differing angle. So would have a slightly differing slant on the benefits.

Hello?
Apart from as an insulin dependant the benefits being useful when set up as a CGM for the compliance with the DVLA "5 to drive" rule on testing before commencing behind & at two hour intervals behind the wheel.

It does up the game with regards to insulin timing & working profile, spotting stuff a traditional BG reading at intervals would or could blindspot.
But on the whole.
The objective is the same as any other D wearer. Daily BG managment whether medded or not & longevity of health as a result, regardless of the diet choice to achieve this.

 

[Listlad]

Apart from as an insulin dependant the benefits being useful when set up as a CGM for the compliance with the DVLA "5 to drive" rule on testing before commencing behind & at two hour intervals behind the wheel.

It does up the game with regards to insulin timing & working profile, spotting stuff a traditional BG reading at intervals would or could blindspot.

I think you answered that question raised by Goonergal quite well. Thankyou.

 

[Jaylee]

I think you answered that question raised by Goonergal quite well. Thankyou.

No problem me ol' mucker. We got there in the end...

 

[Listlad]

No problem me ol' mucker. We got there in the end...

Correct me if I am wrong, me old China. With a T1 and the Libre, there is a certain criticality or immediacy in measurement need, that would not be the case with most T2’s and their usage of the device...

 

[Brunneria]

Listlad, I have no issue with you dealing with your own condition differently to others. That is entirely your choice.

What I find less comfortable is your repeated inference, usually to new members, that you test, or utilise the Libre, then avoid direct questions surrounding that, deflecting your responses, using other people's data or information. Some could say that is misleading.

Listlad,

when you joined the forum you were firm in your decision not to test, and to rely on your periodic HbA1cs to monitor how your diet and lifestyle changes were working.

Since then you have (over time) shifted to supporting testing for T2s and now to suggest that CGMs are useful for non diabetics.

I Have not read all your posts, so I actually do not know whether this change in perspective applies to yourself as well? And what your personal experience of this is. I am clearly not the only person wondering.

If you are taking the view ‘do as I say, not what I do’, then it would be helpful to let people know. I think it is quite reasonable for people to ask questions when your posts are unclear, or cryptic, or seem to be avoiding the issue.

Alternatively, your situation could have changed (ALL our situations, opinions and attitudes change over time).
Maybe you are now self testing? Maybe you would like to test, but have perfectly valid reasons why you can’t (needle phobia? Cost of equipment? Unable to source your testing kit of choice?). Either way, a simple statement would mean that members no longer feel the need to ask for clarification.

Regarding your accusations of ‘harassment’, you have several options.
You could answer people’s questions.
You could take the discussion to private message (as the forum rules request)
Or you could report the people concerned, if you feel their posts break the forum rules.

 

[Listlad]

Listlad,

when you joined the forum you were firm in your decision not to test, and to rely on your periodic HbA1cs to monitor how your diet and lifestyle changes were working.

Since then you have (over time) shifted to supporting testing for T2s and now to suggest that CGMs are useful for non diabetics.

I Have not read all your posts, so I actually do not know whether this change in perspective applies to yourself as well? And what your personal experience of this is. I am clearly not the only person wondering.

If you are taking the view ‘do as I say, not what I do’, then it would be helpful to let people know. I think it is quite reasonable for people to ask questions when your posts are unclear, or cryptic, or seem to be avoiding the issue.

Alternatively, your situation could have changed (ALL our situations, opinions and attitudes change over time).
Maybe you are now self testing? Maybe you would like to test, but have perfectly valid reasons why you can’t (needle phobia? Cost of equipment? Unable to source your testing kit of choice?). Either way, a simple statement would mean that members no longer feel the need to ask for clarification.

Regarding your accusations of ‘harassment’, you have several options.
You could answer people’s questions.
You could take the discussion to private message (as the forum rules request)
Or you could report the people concerned, if you feel their posts break the forum rules.

I have never changed my perspective and periodically state that I am right behind testing for the reasons I have stated in the past. My stance has been consistent. I did post to highlight how a fairly senior figure within the NHS medication section suggested it wasn’t necessary but in that thread I clearly stated my consistent stance. And did challenge him on that personally.

Outside of the forum is the same. I promote the benefits of testing. I am a scientist. How could I say otherwise. I have spent a lifetime in industry testing.

To that end that should be enough on the matter, but clearly it may well not be. As you can see within this thread I was consistently (over) probed on testing. That is harassment. It is not a crime not to test. It is not a precondition of forum membership to test. Or is it?

I have periodically stated the line of reasoning. So I would be repeating myself if I rewrote the stuff all over again.

 

[Brunneria]

I have never changed my perspective and periodically state that I am right behind testing for the reasons I have stated in the past. My stance has been consistent. I did post to highlight how a fairly senior figure within the NHS medication section suggested it wasn’t necessary but in that thread I clearly stated my consistent stance. And did challenge him on that personally.

Outside of the forum is the same. I promote the benefits of testing. I am a scientist. How could I say otherwise.

To that end that should be enough on the matter, but clearly it may well or be. As you can see within this thread I was consistently (over) probed on testing. That is harassment. It is not a crime not to test. It is not a precondition of the forum not to test. Or is it?

Thank you.
You have now given a clear answer, which should satisfy those who have been asking for one.
Your statement is that you support testing for others, in the interests of science, but still choose not to do so yourself.

Hopefully you also appreciate that you may need to explain this again, when/if members are confused by your promotion of testing for both diabetics and non diabetics while you choose not to do it yourself.

 

[Listlad]

Thank you.
You have now given a clear answer, which should satisfy those who have been asking for one.
Your statement is that you support testing for others, in the interests of science, but still choose not to do so yourself.

Hopefully you also appreciate that you may need to explain this again, when/if members are confused by your promotion of testing for both diabetics and non diabetics while you choose not to do it yourself.

Well, I don’t post it up every day, but have surely posted it enough not to be hounded on the matter.

 

[Listlad]

Thank you.
You have now given a clear answer, which should satisfy those who have been asking for one.
Your statement is that you support testing for others, in the interests of science, but still choose not to do so yourself.

Hopefully you also appreciate that you may need to explain this again, when/if members are confused by your promotion of testing for both diabetics and non diabetics while you choose not to do it yourself.

Well, I am sure you would be peeved if you were continually probed on why you choose to go carnivore. Same for me and my choices.

 

[Brunneria]

Well, I don’t post it up every day, but have surely posted it enough not to be hounded on the matter.

The fact that you have been asked about it on this thread and when you declined to answer were asked again, suggests that posters are both interested in your answer and see a dissonance between your opinions and your actions, and were seeking clarification on that.

I expect that you will face the same situation again, because it is unlikely that every member will see #71 above.

anyway, derailment over (on my part, at least )

edited to add: re going carnivore: I regularly state why I went carni. In fact I mention it for clarity whenever I think it is relevant to the post I am making (gut problems, bug followed by gut permeability, unable to tolerate fibre, malabsorption issues, better on v simple carni eating). Actually, I mention it so often that I suspect I bore others almost as much as I bore myself on the subject. Lol.

 

[Listlad]

The fact that you have been asked about it on this thread and when you declined to answer were asked again, suggests that posters are both interested in your answer and see a dissonance between your opinions and your actions, and were seeking clarification on that.

I expect that you will face the same situation again, because it is unlikely that every member will see #71 above.

anyway, derailment over (on my part, at least )

edited to add: re going carnivore: I regularly state why I went carni. In fact I mention it for clarity whenever I think it is relevant to the post I am making (gut problems, bug followed by gut permeability, unable to tolerate fibre, malabsorption issues, better on v simple carni eating). Actually, I mention it so often that I suspect I bore others almost as much as I bore myself on the subject. Lol.

I think I explained quite a number of times that there are other ways of testing in the scientific world. There are both direct and indirect forms of testing scientifically. Sometimes the indirect method supports the direct method and sometimes it works well in the absence of the direct method. I have chosen to use a indirect form of T2 diabetes management as I feel comfortable doing that having built confidence in that scientific approach for many years.

But yes, I repeat myself here, testing is the perfect route. And I will always say that.

 

[JohnEGreen]

Even with 1,5-anhydroglucitol (1,5-AG) you still need a sample and to test it . I am intrigued to find out what this indirect method of testing is as when working as a test engineer and in quality control the testing and measurement of product samples, I found was always necessary .

Because if it works for you it may do so for me and my fingers are getting quite painful.

 

[Listlad]

Even with 1,5-anhydroglucitol (1,5-AG) you still need a sample and to test it . I am intrigued to find out what this indirect method of testing is as when working as a test engineer and in quality control the testing and measurement of product samples, I found was always necessary .

Because if it works for you it may do so for me and my fingers are getting quite painful.

John. There is a swathe of science around. Mine is geological science. Direct testing isn’t always possible. Imagine a laboratory big enough? It’s not like laboratory chemistry. I don’t want to get bogged down in this, but not all sciences are testable in the same way. After 40 years of testing I know this to be the case. Your line of work is obviously different and with a product. The earth is not made up of a collection of man made products.

 

[Honeyend]

My penny worth. When you have problems with your BP, or heart its now quite common to be sent home with a the equipment to monitor your BP, or a 24hrs ecg.
I thinks diabetes Type 2 treated the old way was seen as something that the patient either couldn't control or was unable to understand, when the 'failure' of treat was based on not controlling carbs. So there has been little engagement from GP's apart from writing the scripts, we are following the NICE guidelines so job done.
Until there is a basic shift in preception, that patients can control their disease with diet changes there will be no change GP practice. I would see something like Libre as some you have fitted on diagnosis, and a HCP helps you monitor your results in combination with a food diary so you learn very quickly what foods are problem for you. It would also be backed up with education and 'diet' advice This has an added benifit that its very visual aid for family and HCP to see what effects BS, and not the simple avoid sugar message, because for some patients its not them who are doing the food shopping or cooking. The fact that patients diet to get the best response would be indivdualised would get round the 'carb' factor, no one is saying carbs are bad, just to get the best response the patient may have to reduce them, and what other factors are involved.
After about a month when the BS are stablised,hopefully, the patient then tranfers to self testing, with advice when to test and a review. This means you are using Libre as a diagnostic/education tool. Funding pinched from another budget perhaps, and easier to sell than funding it for years.

How many people have come on this forum and said I have been told I am diabetic, but I have had no information or I am confused what to eat? A months worth of Libre and support would be cost effective, perhaps remove some of the need for providing courses, give and incentive to change their diet, and also take away a bit of information overload and panic.

 

[Listlad]

My penny worth. When you have problems with your BP, or heart its now quite common to be sent home with a the equipment to monitor your BP, or a 24hrs ecg.
I thinks diabetes Type 2 treated the old way was seen as something that the patient either couldn't control or was unable to understand, when the 'failure' of treat was based on not controlling carbs. So there has been little engagement from GP's apart from writing the scripts, we are following the NICE guidelines so job done.
Until there is a basic shift in preception, that patients can control their disease with diet changes there will be no change GP practice. I would see something like Libre as some you have fitted on diagnosis, and a HCP helps you monitor your results in combination with a food diary so you learn very quickly what foods are problem for you. It would also be backed up with education and 'diet' advice This has an added benifit that its very visual aid for family and HCP to see what effects BS, and not the simple avoid sugar message, because for some patients its not them who are doing the food shopping or cooking. The fact that patients diet to get the best response would be indivdualised would get round the 'carb' factor, no one is saying carbs are bad, just to get the best response the patient may have to reduce them, and what other factors are involved.
After about a month when the BS are stablised,hopefully, the patient then tranfers to self testing, with advice when to test and a review. This means you are using Libre as a diagnostic/education tool. Funding pinched from another budget perhaps, and easier to sell than funding it for years.

How many people have come on this forum and said I have been told I am diabetic, but I have had no information or I am confused what to eat? A months worth of Libre and support would be cost effective, perhaps remove some of the need for providing courses, give and incentive to change their diet, and also take away a bit of information overload and panic.

And thip is is exactly what Dr David Unwin and Dr Simon Tobin have been saying recently.

 

[JohnEGreen]

John. There is a swathe of science around. Mine is geological science. Direct testing isn’t always possible. Imagine a laboratory big enough? It’s not like laboratory chemistry. I don’t want to get bogged down in this, but not all sciences are testable in the same way. After 40 years of testing I know this to be the case. Your line of work is obviously different and with a product. The earth is not made up of a collection of man made products.

Quite so but geologists don't just stay or work on the surface and I'm not sure I would want to carry out a seismic survey to determine my blood sugar levels and most of the geologists I have known collect samples to test directly in the lab. Any way enough said I am I think derailing and will desist.