low carb, high fat

[Tophat1900]

These "studies" are just turning into to straight-up information warfare now. Shameless industry protection projects with a predetermined outcome. Some balderdash statistics sprinkled on-top to create the illusion that some actual science was involved. Remember, folks: The truth doesn't matter. It only matters what you can make people believe. A couple of headlines are all it takes.

People rarely read past the headlines.

These researchers are either clueless or bias, I know which one my money is on. Either way, they are a disgrace to science.

 

[MetabolicJim]

Just for the record I’ve decided to give low carb a go. I’ve been doing moderate/reduced carb since June 2019. My HbA1c has been normal since July, but I’m not getting far fast with my obesity, cholesterol/trigs and liver enzymes (or snoring). I need to change something and am out of other ideas.

 

[Member496333]

Just for the record I’ve decided to give low carb a go. I’ve been doing moderate/reduced carb since June 2019. My HbA1c has been normal since July, but I’m not getting far fast with my obesity, cholesterol/trigs and liver enzymes (or snoring). I need to change something and am out of other ideas.

I will stop short of recommending it to anyone else, as they are free to investigate without my help, but my natural progression was from high-carb (diabetes) to low-carb, to paleo/keto, to carnivore. With each change I've felt further improved and been a more optimal human, both physically and cognitively. Apexing at 100% keto-carnivore where I am now, and intend to stay.

It goes without saying that you will choose your own low-carb path, but paths to choose there are!

 

[Ellenor2000]

There have been a lot of responses in this thread relating to high fat and heart disease, but one of the biggest cardiac related stroke risk comes from Atrial Fibrillation and I have noted a significant increase in research and articles citing Low carb diet as a causative factor in the
Development of Afib.

I've not done any studies on it, but i think what's happening is that the low carb diet is unmasking a magnesium deficiency (which I hypothesise is causative of atrial fibrillation) because it causes sodium wasting and the sequelae thereof.

 

[Ellenor2000]

while I am personally very pro-low-CHO, I've heard of people's glycemic control going to pot on it too.

at the end of the day, the most important thing is to get good glycemic control without hyperinsulinemia, and get all of your micronutrients and all of your essential macronutrients.

 

[Member496333]

I've heard of people's glycemic control going to pot on it too.

It doubtless happens. Dismissing the possibility out-of-hand would be foolish. But it also seems that when you read these accounts in full, it almost always comes to light that the people experiencing it are continually poking the dog. Eating low carb and then seeing if it's "worked" by downing a 2 litre bottle of Mountain Dew and then mistaking the glucose-sparing blood sugar spike for pathological insulin resistance and diabetes.

 

[Ellenor2000]

It doubtless happens. Dismissing the possibility out-of-hand would be foolish. But it also seems that when you read these accounts in full, it almost always comes to light that the people experiencing it are continually poking the dog. Eating low carb and then seeing if it's "worked" by downing a 2 litre bottle of Mountain Dew and then mistaking the glucose-sparing blood sugar spike for pathological insulin resistance and diabetes.

well, I don't have a history of diabetes, but downing a 75g serve of congee only set me up to 8½ mmol/L (which only qualifies me as having impaired glucose tolerance), and milk carbs don't seem to jack with my moods (which are why I've been on a low carb diet for so long).

 

[Brunneria]

I am overwhelmed by the opinions of responders to my initial query. I am not sure that all the cardio-vascular consultants can be wholly wrong. Anyways here's my story:
Some years ago I read somewhere that type 2 diabetes was caused by fat blocking the receptors in our muscle cells which prevented insulin from opening the cells so that glucose from the digestive system (that was floating around in the blood) could enter and deliver energy to the cells. So I decided to get rid of as much fat as possible from my diet so see if doing this would "reverse" my diabetes. I also eliminated sugar from my diet as much as possible. At that time my numbers were all over the place and I was overweight. In addition I could hardly walk due to pains in my feet due to diabetic neuropathy. For a few weeks nothing happened then I began to lose weight rapidly, about 2kg a week, and my numbers began to improved dramatically ... after about 2 months my numbers were almost "normal" and I felt a whole lot better and could walk easily again. Since then I have become less strict about the fat in my diet and just try to keep it below 10% of my energy intake. Today I am pretty healthy and quite fit and follow a diet like this ... natural foods as far as possible (ie, minimal processed foods), low sugar, low fat, low salt, low GI, high fibre. I eat meat and fish, especially salmon, but cut off the fat. My personal opinion now is that the most important thing in my diet, now that the receptors in my muscle cells are no longer blocked with fat, is to eat fresh foods that have a low GI (glycemic index) as theses foods are digested slowly and so they release glucose into the bloodstream slowly thus avoiding large spikes in blood glucose levels ...

I am fascinated by this.
Have you done any reading on the Newcastle Diet? Reversal of (some) T2s by weight loss?
In the situation you describe above, the weight loss alone could easily be the reason your numbers improved, and have stayed improved. No reason to assume that keeping the fat low has anything to do with it.

 

[carty]

Well, here's a write up that counters the claim that low carb causes Atrial fib.... link at the bottom. Interesting the researchers think low carb is 40%

I tried to ignore it, but I just can’t anymore. The misinformation being publicly touted needs clarification.


Popular news articles are covering an observational study linking “low-carb” diets to atrial fibrillation, a potentially dangerous heart-rhythm disorder.


For starters, this study is not published yet, and it hasn’t even been presented at a scientific meeting. It looks like it will be presented next week at the American College of Cardiology’s annual meeting. Scientific integrity, but apparently not journalistic integrity, dictates that one should not discuss the details of a study until it is published. The reasons for this are clear, one of which is that we may draw false conclusions without having the actual data available to review.


This study is a perfect example. The headlines state this study determined those who ate a “low carb” diet were at higher risk of developing atrial fibrillation. Once again, however, the definition of low carb was less than 40% of calories from carbohydrate. That’s 200 grams on a 2,000-calorie diet. I have seen responses on social media such as, “I eat fewer carbs than that on my biggest cheat days!”


While 40% may be low carb by Standard American Diet (SAD) standards, it is a far cry from the less than 50 or even 20 grams of carbs to which most low-carb eaters adhere. There is a reason for the differentiation. At 40% carbs, our bodies are still burning carbs and glucose for fuel. So what happens to the fat? It gets stored. Or worse, it gets oxidized and stored. Either way, the combined high-carb and high-fat diet is the one that is most prone for health problems.


But the problems with the study don’t stop there. This is the same poor quality of evidence that we point out time and time again. Observational trials can suggest an association, but do not prove causation. The food frequency questionnaires used to record participants’ diets are notoriously inaccurate at capturing what people really eat, and they miss dietary changes that happen after the questionnaire was completed. Last, there are numerous potential confounding variables. Did people decrease their carb intake from very high to slightly high (from more than 60% to less than 40%) because they were obese and wanted to lose weight? Did they have diabetes or hypertension and wanted to improve them?


Obesity, sleep apnea, hypertension and diabetes are all risk factors for atrial fibrillation. It turns out that a low-carb diet (the real low carb diet, not the fake one in this study) improves obesity, sleep apnea, hypertension and diabetes. It’s my guess that a higher-quality, better designed study would likely show that low-carb nutrition prevents atrial fibrillation. That’s what I see in my practice, and that is how I am going to continue to use low-carb nutrition. When followed correctly, low-carb nutrition is as a powerful tool to improve health.


Thanks for reading,
Bret Scher, MD FACC

https://www.dietdoctor.com/inaccurate-news-stories-suggest-low-carb-causes-atrial-fibrillation

Well, here's a write up that counters the claim that low carb causes Atrial fib.... link at the bottom. Interesting the researchers think low carb is 40%

I tried to ignore it, but I just can’t anymore. The misinformation being publicly touted needs clarification.


Popular news articles are covering an observational study linking “low-carb” diets to atrial fibrillation, a potentially dangerous heart-rhythm disorder.


For starters, this study is not published yet, and it hasn’t even been presented at a scientific meeting. It looks like it will be presented next week at the American College of Cardiology’s annual meeting. Scientific integrity, but apparently not journalistic integrity, dictates that one should not discuss the details of a study until it is published. The reasons for this are clear, one of which is that we may draw false conclusions without having the actual data available to review.


This study is a perfect example. The headlines state this study determined those who ate a “low carb” diet were at higher risk of developing atrial fibrillation. Once again, however, the definition of low carb was less than 40% of calories from carbohydrate. That’s 200 grams on a 2,000-calorie diet. I have seen responses on social media such as, “I eat fewer carbs than that on my biggest cheat days!”


While 40% may be low carb by Standard American Diet (SAD) standards, it is a far cry from the less than 50 or even 20 grams of carbs to which most low-carb eaters adhere. There is a reason for the differentiation. At 40% carbs, our bodies are still burning carbs and glucose for fuel. So what happens to the fat? It gets stored. Or worse, it gets oxidized and stored. Either way, the combined high-carb and high-fat diet is the one that is most prone for health problems.


But the problems with the study don’t stop there. This is the same poor quality of evidence that we point out time and time again. Observational trials can suggest an association, but do not prove causation. The food frequency questionnaires used to record participants’ diets are notoriously inaccurate at capturing what people really eat, and they miss dietary changes that happen after the questionnaire was completed. Last, there are numerous potential confounding variables. Did people decrease their carb intake from very high to slightly high (from more than 60% to less than 40%) because they were obese and wanted to lose weight? Did they have diabetes or hypertension and wanted to improve them?


Obesity, sleep apnea, hypertension and diabetes are all risk factors for atrial fibrillation. It turns out that a low-carb diet (the real low carb diet, not the fake one in this study) improves obesity, sleep apnea, hypertension and diabetes. It’s my guess that a higher-quality, better designed study would likely show that low-carb nutrition prevents atrial fibrillation. That’s what I see in my practice, and that is how I am going to continue to use low-carb nutrition. When followed correctly, low-carb nutrition is as a powerful tool to improve health.


Thanks for reading,
Bret Scher, MD FACC

https://www.dietdoctor.com/inaccurate-news-stories-suggest-low-carb-causes-atrial-fibrillation

I find this. fascinating .When I was first diagnosed with diabetes I had not been to the GP for years so I had the usual M O T which included a heart check which came back abnormal but not dangerous so I was left for 6 months before another check .In the meantime I researched diabetes and followed a couple of forums and started a low carb higher fat diet My second heart check was ok .I never connected this before By the way I am a skinny type 2 so weight was not an issue
Carol

 

[bulkbiker]

type 2 diabetes was caused by fat blocking the receptors in our muscle cells which prevented insulin from opening the cells

@Jam&Scones

That sounds like something from the Greger/Barnard/Kahn school that T2 is caused by excess animal fat ingestion.
This belief then goes on to support an ultra low fat vegan diet for allegedly reversing T2 which is what they claim.
Unfortunately Barnards own study only showed mild improvements in HbA1c which then began to worsen over time.

Edit to add.. they never got even close to remission.

 

[bulkbiker]

The graph was amended by a doctor on twitter to show LCHF results so..

 

[Member496333]

The graph was amended by a doctor on twitter to show LCHF results so..
View attachment 38888

Well they do say a picture speaks a thousand words.

 

[Sunstreaker]

Could you share some links to that research, please?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/31020911/


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190306081652.htm

It was particularly the recent Chinese research which has been the subject of debate and critique, typing low carb atrial fibrillation into google brings up a lot of recent activity.

 

[bulkbiker]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/31020911/


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190306081652.htm

It was particularly the recent Chinese research which has been the subject of debate and critique, typing low carb atrial fibrillation into google brings up a lot of recent activity.

I'm afraid the the first of your studies .. like so many in this field unfortunately, calls something a" Low Carb" diet when the lowest quartile of carb intake is still 37% of calories.
No-one that I know who is low carbing would be consuming 37% of their calories from carbs .
If they were say following a 2000 cal per day then that leads to 185 g of carbs.
A "low carb" diet is usually designed to be 130g per day or under. This the study is comparing a slightly reduced carb diet against a high carb diet. To then draw any conclusions about a "real" low carb diet is simply not possible from the cohort they are examining.
Plus all the data comes from Food Frequency Questionnaires which are well known to be (for the most part) a very faulty measure of consumption.
Looks like the second article just refers to the first study.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

so why do so many on this website recomment a high fat diet?

There's no doubt that many people do very well on the LCHF diet. I don't, my total cholesterol will go up every time I add fat and this has led to that "statin" conversation where I will politely say no thank you, I'll alter my diet. This has always worked and in fact my HDL is high and my LDL is low, so everyone is happy (I hope I've got that the right way round).
It's obvious, but we're all very different. I'm unlucky enough not to require the calories in a higher fat diet. Most people are unlucky enough to fade away if they don't keep their calories up.
So, the best thing is try LCHF as well as LCLF and see how you feel and what your cholesterol levels do.

 

[Sunstreaker]

I'm afraid the the first of your studies .. like so many in this field unfortunately, calls something a" Low Carb" diet when the lowest quartile of carb intake is still 37% of calories.
No-one that I know who is low carbing would be consuming 37% of their calories from carbs .
If they were say following a 2000 cal per day then that leads to 185 g of carbs.
A "low carb" diet is usually designed to be 130g per day or under. This the study is comparing a slightly reduced carb diet against a high carb diet. To then draw any conclusions about a "real" low carb diet is simply not possible from the cohort they are examining.
Plus all the data comes from Food Frequency Questionnaires which are well known to be (for the most part) a very faulty measure of consumption.
Looks like the second article just refers to the first study.

The Chinese study has been cited of late on a number of cites, such as the other posted example, drawing conclusions that a Keto or low carb may increase your risk of developing Afib. Unfortunately when Afib develops in the absence of comorbidities, often referred to as lone afib, if you have been low carbing it’s natural to question as to whether it was a trigger.

 

[bulkbiker]

if you have been low carbing

As I explained however none of the people involved in the study were "low carbing" ergo to blame low carbing for AFib is completely misleading. As probably was the study intention.

 

[Sunstreaker]

As I explained however none of the people involved in the study were "low carbing" ergo to blame low carbing for AFib is completely misleading. As probably was the study intention.

I can only speak from personal experience ,I am only prediabetic maintaining low HBA1c levels through LCHF diet and weight loss. Afib came along four years into low carbing for me. anecdotally I have come across a number of self confessed low carbers and keto dieters within the afib world who are asking the question of themselves as to whether it was self induced as a result. Also a lot of interest in a fibbers looking to low carb if weight loss is a need and struggling with the lack of clarity with all the opposing positions.

 

[Jam&Scones]

@Jam&Scones

That sounds like something from the Greger/Barnard/Kahn school that T2 is caused by excess animal fat ingestion.
This belief then goes on to support an ultra low fat vegan diet for allegedly reversing T2 which is what they claim.
Unfortunately Barnards own study only showed mild improvements in HbA1c which then began to worsen over time.

Ah, thank you - I do remember now a vegan diet was being proposed, Barnard rings a bell so I must have been watching a video with him. I think this is why I ignored it at the time, I find it ridiculous that anyone would assume an all vegan diet is natural - there is evidence humans have been eating meat for thousands of years. IMO, Cutting such an important part of our diet out in the long term is unsustainable.

I loved the second graph, btw

 

[bulkbiker]

I can only speak from personal experience ,I am only prediabetic maintaining low HBA1c levels through LCHF diet and weight loss. Afib came along four years into low carbing for me. anecdotally I have come across a number of self confessed low carbers and keto dieters within the afib world who are asking the question of themselves as to whether it was self induced as a result. Also a lot of interest in a fibbers looking to low carb if weight loss is a need and struggling with the lack of clarity with all the opposing positions.

Could it be an electrolyte imbalance maybe?

By the way I'm not saying it couldn't happen just that the study you linked to doesn't show that it does.

It is not something I have come across much though and I've been fairly active in the low carb/keto/carnivore world for about the past 4 1/2 years..