Do I need a different type of Insulin as well?

Mervyn

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Messages
149
Hi,
Hope everyone is ok...I have been type 2 for 10 years and have been on Lantus insulin...taken in the morning, for about 2 months. My units have been gradually increased and my before lunch and before dinner glucose readings are pretty good..averaging 5.9. The problem is that my bedtime reading is between 11.0 and 14.0, and my morning readings are between 7.6 and 9.0.

I do not want to "up" my units too much if it means that my pre lunch and pre evening meal readings becoming too low and get into the "hypo" range.

My diabetic nurse does not appear to be listening to me very well. Does anyone think that I would benefit from an additional type of insulin in the evening? If so, how am I going to convince the diabetic specialist nurse? Or am I over reacting?

Any advice would be appreciated as I am trying not to "stress out" over all this.

Mervyn
 

marti

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109
when my number was getting high at night my endo put me onto lantus at night too so i would say is there away you can get a diabetic nurse that will listen to you?
 

Mervyn

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149
The problem is that I have seen my nurse once!! I now only have telephone consultations which does not last more than a minute (I suspect that she is overloaded with cases) It is very difficult to be assertive in a very short phone call!!!
 

Mervyn

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149
no...just my GP, who is very good with me, especially with all my health problems over the years....but although he wanted me on insulin as early as May this year, he has to go through the specialist diabetic service i.e specialist nurse...but maybe now he may be able to alter/add to my insulin.
If there is no movement from my nurse within next two weeks I will make appt with G.P and hope for the best!!
 

ebony321

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Hi,

Seems to me you could benefit from splitting your insulin into two injections, this was you can give yourself slightly more in the evening to improve your higher readings, it looks like your insulin is trailing off and not quite lasting 24 hours, if you needed fast acting insulin this would probably reflect in all readings after meals, not just the evening.

Contact your nurse on the phone, if you can't seem to keep her on the phone request an appointment expressing your concerns over elevated blood glucose levels and that you would like to discuss some options in how to improve these. If that fails, don't be afraid to show up at your local clinic, it's harder to brush someone off face to face than on the phone and she will be more likely to listen.

Good luck
 

Mervyn

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149
hi, I was thinking of maybe splitting the injection, but I did read somewhere that splitting Lantus over two injections was not very effective.

Yes I don't know how long the lantus is lasting with me but I take it at 6am ( I am always up at around 5am) and it seems to shoot up at or before bedtime (I check my BG at 5am, before lunch, before evening meal and at bedtime, not two hrs after meals) they do allow me 100 strips per month.

Unfortunately our "clinic" is held at various times and is a visiting clinic from a hospital quite some way from here ;-( I wonder if changing to an evening injection instead of morning may be more effective??

The last conversation I had with the nurse, I was basically told to titrate the dose myself as long as I left her a message on her mobile phone, so she could alter it on the computer!! but I am wary of the daytime ones i.e. before lunch and evening meal becoming too low!!
 

ebony321

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Hi,

That's why usually splitting can work better, its pointless to change your insulin to bring those highs in the evening down to only cause a hypo earlier in the day!

Many people effectively split lantus and acheive great results. It may be worth a try, you could also change your background insulin to may levemir which is another good choice when Lantus doesn't seem to be working for you.

Unfortunately alot of nurses are overwhelmed with case loads so it ends up in some people feeling sort of neglected.

Some GP's have a diabetes clinic as well as hospitals, (mine does and i live in a small town) maybe worth a try making an appointment elsewhere, also some GP DR's can be quite knowledgeable on diabetes too. Many you could try ask your receptionist at your GP if any Doc's are knowleadgeable enough to advise you on insulin?

Good luck
 

Mervyn

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149
thankyou...I will certainly ask the nurse (when I leave a message telling her I have upped my insulin) that maybe splitting or changing to levemir might be helpful. Yes our GP has a diabetic clinic and a diabetic nurse!!!

For some reason they have to send patients to this visiting specialist nurse when they need to go on insulin. May ask the Dr's receptionist if I can have a chat with our own Diabetic nurse!!
 

ebony321

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May be a good idea to make an appointment with them instead if your specialist nurse is very busy, then at least you can get it hopefully sorted as soon as possible :)

hope it gets sorted!
 

Caleb Murdock

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60
Mervyn said:
Hi,
Hope everyone is ok...I have been type 2 for 10 years and have been on Lantus insulin...taken in the morning, for about 2 months. My units have been gradually increased and my before lunch and before dinner glucose readings are pretty good..averaging 5.9. The problem is that my bedtime reading is between 11.0 and 14.0, and my morning readings are between 7.6 and 9.0.

I do not want to "up" my units too much if it means that my pre lunch and pre evening meal readings becoming too low and get into the "hypo" range.

My diabetic nurse does not appear to be listening to me very well. Does anyone think that I would benefit from an additional type of insulin in the evening? If so, how am I going to convince the diabetic specialist nurse? Or am I over reacting?

Any advice would be appreciated as I am trying not to "stress out" over all this.

Mervyn

In my opinion, Lantus is being misused by many health professionals and diabetics. Lantus is designed to provide the low level of basal insulin that our bodies should produce. It is meant for those people whose insulin production is so impaired that their blood sugar would rise even if they didn't eat (I'm not referring to the dawn phenomenon). Bolus (fast-acting) insulin is meant to cover your post-prandial insulin needs. Indeed, most type-2 diabetics lose their ability to release the large amounts of insulin needed to cover meals, not the small amounts required to keep fasting blood-sugar levels normal. Thus, most diabetics who inject should be taking bolus insulin before eating (it takes an hour to take effect). Regular (R) insulin is, in my opinion, the best bolus insulin. The faster insulins that have been engineered to enter the body quickly are more finicky. If you cover your meals with R insulin, you will probably find that your fasting levels are good also. Here is how you do it:

You inject R insulin about an hour before you eat (it takes that long to start having an effect when injected into your fat). It will then stay in your body for about 4 hours, peaking after about 3 hours (meaning, 4 hours after you injected). Thus, you can eat two small meals on an injection, one meal 1 hour after injecting, and another meal (or a snack) 3 hours after injecting. As the insulin winds down, it will bring your blood sugar back to normal.

If you don't want to inject 3 times a day, then do this: eat a no-carb or very-low-carb breakfast (such as bacon & eggs). For a mid-morning snack, have something very low-carb, such as nuts or cheese. Then inject before lunch and dinner. For lunch, you can eat a moderate meal plus a mid-afternoon snack. For dinner, you can eat a moderate meal plus a before-bed snack. You'll need to figure out your insulin-to-carbs ratio. For me, it is 1 unit per 3 carbs to be consumed (I can sometimes get away with 4 carbs). Your ratio is likely to be similar to that.

I have achieved an A1c of 6.2 even though I am not eating low-carb these days (I'm trying to improve that), and I did it by carefully covering all my carby meals with R insulin. If I were to eat fewer carbs, I could easily achieve an A1c of 5.5 or less. As for my waking numbers, they are in the range of 6.3 to 7.5, which I consider acceptable. The only time my numbers go up is when I eat more carbs than I injected for.

The only caveat: If you eat too many carbs (175 to 200 or more, depending on your body), you can start to gain weight. This works best if you keep your carbs to 150 per day or less (but I am eating more than that).

Here in the U.S., R insulin is cheap and available without a prescription. That may not be the case in Britain. There is a great bias in the medical profession in favor of the expensive engineered insulins. R insulin is a forgotten, unsung hero that can do great things for you.
 

Mervyn

Well-Known Member
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149
thankyou...certainly gives food for thought...the problem again is trying to have a "full on" consultation with my specialist nurse and convincing her of trying changes in insulin etc
 
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2
Mervyn,
Lantus will not last 24hrs,no type of insulin will last this long as they all have peaks and troughs.
If you continue using Lantus I would suggest splitting the dose to bring down your evening peaks, it sounds to me as if you maybe type one and need some NovoRapid, or similar, for this advice I would contact your nurse or consultant immediately, if they dont have the answers please contact my nurse, the best in the business, she saved my life as my doctor did initially, hope this helps. Please count your carbs, 1 to 1 ratio = 10grms of carbs to 1 unit of NovaRapid. Dont know about Lantus as my background insulin is Levemir. Also you need to know what your ratio is 1 to 1, 1.5 to 1 etc, get in touch with a professional immediately..................... Your health and life are important to all of us..................peace and love............ :D :lol: :roll: ........Deftones rock..........X factor..please lol
This is my first time trying to help a fellow diabetic, when giving advice please try to be more direct peoples lives, long term health are at stake.... My best friends mother has been a diabetic for 30 yrs, so I have had a lot of good advice..............count those carbs and eat what you like...Love to you all
 
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2
DAFNE rules for type1 diabetics............I now feel I have control of my long term debilitating illness, rather than it having control over me.......We dont always get it right but we try hard..My nurse and doctor are the equivalent of god on earth.............Love to you Claire and Robert.....Mervyn be smart contact sum1 who knows more than me ASAP................. :mrgreen: :wink:
 

Mervyn

Well-Known Member
Messages
149
Hi,
Just managed to get my specialist nurse answering the phone :) and she seemed quite receptive this morning. I told her I had upped my Lantus by another 2 units but was not happy as was not seeming to have any real effect. She asked me to call in a few days after taking extra readings 2hrs after eating (she was not interested in this before) and she may have to put me on a mixed insulin twice daily.
So at least I will have some progression one way or the other! :)
 

Mervyn

Well-Known Member
Messages
149
Well I telephoned my specialist nurse on Monday to give her my post-prandial readings.
She contacted me today and I gave her the readings for 2hrs after meals and they ranged from 14.8 to 9.6 and averaged over 11.

She tells me that I am nearly there and to up my units by 2. No mention that she was going to change me to a mixed Insulin (that was the reason she wanted the readings).

To top that off. I received a copy of a letter sent to my GP's surgery,addressed to a Dr there who is not my GP and who I have never seen. The letter was dated 4 days ago. It stated that I was on an injection that in fact is 6 units less than I am taking and that my glucose was within "therapautic" levels.

My fasting level is averaging well above 8 and before meals about 7.7 and my before bed is averaging 13.5 and I do not eat after my evening meal...a cup of tea without sugar is about it!!

I am now confused on whether I my readings are acceptable or not and I am getting fed up and wondering why I bother!! sorry about the rant but cannot understand what is going on.

Mervyn
 

Caleb Murdock

Well-Known Member
Messages
60
I'm not familiar with your health-care system in England, so there's not much that I can say about it. However, blood-sugar numbers that go as high as 14.8 and average over 11 are seriously high. As I said before, Lantus is designed to keep your basal blood-sugar numbers in check (your blood-sugar numbers when you are not eating); to handle the blood-sugar numbers after meals, you need a fast-acting insulin, of which regular insulin is the cheapest. A shot of regular insulin an hour before any meal that has carbohydrates in it will do wonders to bring down your blood-sugar numbers. If you can't get that, then a mixture of 70 NPH (basal insulin) with 30 regular insulin is your next-best treatment. All-basal insulin (such as Lantus) is not the best treatment for you.

When Lantus is used to control post-prandial BS numbers, large amounts of it are required -- too large for your fasting or basal needs. However, having said that, taking Lantus is better than nothing. To increase your units by 2 when you are having such high BS numbers is inadequate; you need to take an extra 10 or more.

You are not getting adequate care. You need to educate yourself about diabetes. Armed with knowledge, you then need to demand better treatment. A little foot-stamping is required. Can you get in to see a doctor instead of just a nurse? Also, until you are getting adequate insulin, you need to reduce your carbohydrates dramatically -- that means no sweets and very few starches. Mostly you should eat meat, nuts and vegetables. Even fruit may have too many carbs.

I have written my own article about diabetes, which you can find here:
http://www.calebmurdock.com/2011/04/typ ... asics.html

(That URL used to be posted in my signature, but I was asked to remove it, so I now have to give it in posts.) That article will give you a better idea of what BS readings are acceptable.

Good luck.
 

sue96

Member
Messages
6
My background insulin is Levemir, not Lantus, but I split my dose and need more before breakfast than before my evening meal. I was advised to split my dose and surprised to discover I needed differing amounts at different times. Maybe you could experiment without "permission" from the nurse. See what works for you. Good luck