A question for the Keto brigade... I guess...

[bulkbiker]

She fiercely believes that it doesn't really matter how many carbs you consume

Then she most certainly is not following a keto diet.
Ketosis is brought on by minimising carb intake..
From your day of eating listed above remove the rice and coffeemate and you could probably be in ketosis. To "guarantee" ketosis you probably need sub 20g of carbs per day but some people can get there with 50g.. you might be one of the lucky ones.
I'm speaking as someone who has lost about 120 pounds with keto and fasting.
The fasting part (no breakfast no snacks just 2 meals a day)combined with an ultra low carb diet will likely help you achieve your goals.. might be worth it for a couple of months and see how you go. Once the weight is off and blood sugars normalised you can start to experiment with gradual re-introduction of carbs?

 

[Sarbak]

I would say that my journey and path has been quite similar to what your looking for - perhaps with more stick testing as im an engineer so data is of interest. I did the same with both an app and a spreadsheet.

The app i used was myfitnesspal (partly because it linked with my Garmin watch) but mostly because i found it pretty easy to use. Once you make a recipe or a meal its easy to just click it on over and over so i made one for example side salad properly weighed out and then just add it to a meal with what ever im having it with.

I was averaging anywhere from 1000 - 1500 calories a day early on and because i based it around foods that filled me up and extra protein i found it wasn't too bad. As an alternative method, i dint count carbs - i tested meals. So i ate a meal, tested two hours 1 and 2 maybe 3 hours after - if my bloods were fine i could repeat the meal with minimal or no testing.

I did end up eating and repeating allot of meals early on, but as the weight dropped off i expanded out more.

I had three square meals a day, very little snacks my goal was always to try and stick to three meals and getting into the habbit of snacking is a slippery slope for me.

tracked it this way for a while until i was happy with various meals.

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Thanks @sno0opy - that's the app I tried, but I didn't get on with it. I think the main reason is because I don't eat many of the same predictable meals, so I could see there was an easy way to build up a bank of meals that you could just add to your day, but pretty much every meal I have is made up of different things each time lol. So I listed all the things I buy every week in the supermarket on a spreadsheet and then found out the nutritional info on each of them by MY portion size, to save me having to do calculations for each meal. Eg when I have broccoli, I always have a whole head of it and it's always the same weight (give or take a few grams). Now it's just a simple copy and paste from my master tab into the day's tab and everything else auto-calculates, including the custom formatting and lookups. Yay for spreadsheets

 

[Sarbak]

Then she most certainly is not following a keto diet.
Ketosis is brought on by minimising carb intake..
From your day of eating listed above remove the rice and coffeemate and you could probably be in ketosis. To "guarantee" ketosis you probably need sub 20g of carbs per day but some people can get there with 50g.. you might be one of the lucky ones.
I'm speaking as someone who has lost about 120 pounds with keto and fasting.
The fasting part (no breakfast no snacks just 2 meals a day)combined with an ultra low carb diet will likely help you achieve your goals.. might be worth it for a couple of months and see how you go. Once the weight is off and blood sugars normalised you can start to experiment with gradual re-introduction of carbs?

I do tend to have one 'official' portion of carbs a day - which is only either wholegrain basmati, wholegrain toast or an apple, so some days my carbs are 30g less if I've only had an apple. I have considered intermittent fasting, as I do sometimes struggle to make myself eat breakfast and think I could probably cope with a noon to 8pm eating window, so maybe I'll try that and see if I can cut out one of the meals and increase the calorie intake on the other two.

 

[Resurgam]

Your friend is really risking everything, as high fat and high carb are the worst combination.
My metabolism is very low due, I believe to the hammering from low calorie diets all my life - I will be 70 next Spring.
During lockdown my food requirements are very low indeed, but normally I would have salad with breakfast, plus a mug of coffee with a tiny pinch of salt, a larger pinch of cinnamon and cream. For dinner, 12 hours later I would have stirfry or boiled and roasted low carb veges, and another coffee. I do sometimes make a dessert, but not very often these days
I eat protein with the natural fat that comes with it, rather than buying chicken fillets I get chicken thighs, and I don't get low fat mince, or trimmed pork chops. I don't necessarily eat the fat with the meat, but I do use it for cooking mushrooms sweet peppers, onion, courgette or aubergine etc.

 

[bulkbiker]

I do tend to have one 'official' portion of carbs a day - which is only either wholegrain basmati, wholegrain toast or an apple, so some days my carbs are 30g less if I've only had an apple. I have considered intermittent fasting, as I do sometimes struggle to make myself eat breakfast and think I could probably cope with a noon to 8pm eating window, so maybe I'll try that and see if I can cut out one of the meals and increase the calorie intake on the other two.

That would probably help you a lot. Remember you are trying to reduce spikes in insulin production, these are caused by eating so the longer you can go without eating the better. I use coffee with double cream as my meal replacement (never coffeemate which has a list of nasty ingredients).
Breakfast has been hyped as necessary by cereal manufacturers.. can't think why!

 

[Sarbak]

That would probably help you a lot. Remember you are trying to reduce spikes in insulin production, these are caused by eating so the longer you can go without eating the better. I use coffee with double cream as my meal replacement (never coffeemate which has a list of nasty ingredients).
Breakfast has been hyped as necessary by cereal manufacturers.. can't think why!

lol yeah, I've had 40+ years of BREAKFAST IS THE MOST IMPORTANT MEAL OF THE DAY drummed into me

What's the feeling about Elmlea - cream alternative? As bad as coffeemate? I don't buy double cream because I don't use enough of it and would always be throwing at least half of it away. I generally only have one or two cups of tea/coffee a day, so wouldn't get through much real cream and Elmlea at least lasts longer.

 

[Sarbak]

I was also told by two different doctors that until you've eaten breakfast, your metabolism isn't working and you aren't burning any calories.... I guess they've never heard of BMR.

 

[bulkbiker]

[QUOTE="Sarbak, post: 2306394, member: 530098"
What's the feeling about Elmlea - cream alternative? .[/QUOTE]
Noooo nasty horrible vegetable oil... fresh double cream should last for 7 days.. just get a small pot (well I get through 3*600ml pots a week) coffee/tea and then on my rare frozen raspberry desserts.

 

[bulkbiker]

I was also told by two different doctors that until you've eaten breakfast, your metabolism isn't working and you aren't burning any calories.... I guess they've never heard of BMR.

Complete cobblers.
Some doctors prove themselves to be idiots frequently!

 

[Resurgam]

I was also told by two different doctors that until you've eaten breakfast, your metabolism isn't working and you aren't burning any calories.... I guess they've never heard of BMR.

If your metabolism wasn't working, you would not be getting up at all.
I eat early and late as it stops my ever helpful liver throwing out glucose when I get up - in case I need to trek 10 miles to find breakfast, or run away from something big and fierce.

 

[Sarbak]

If your metabolism wasn't working, you would not be getting up at all.
I eat early and late as it stops my ever helpful liver throwing out glucose when I get up - in case I need to trek 10 miles to find breakfast, or run away from something big and fierce.

Interesting - so that wouldn't technically be classed as intermittent fasting? Or is it intermittent fasting but with two very small eating windows, rather than a longer small eating window.... if that makes sense lol

 

[Resurgam]

Interesting - so that wouldn't technically be classed as intermittent fasting? Or is it intermittent fasting but with two very small eating windows, rather than a longer small eating window.... if that makes sense lol

It doesn't feel like fasting, just not being hungry at all. I used to fast until lunchtime when taking the Metformin, but by the time I ate my levels were quite high, often over 10 so they went down when I had eaten. By eating earlier I would see no more than 8 and then went even lower over time. During the time I did this I went from Hba1c 91 to 47, so I was pretty pleased with that.

 

[HSSS]

To lose weight, I have to be in a calorific deficit

Why? Especially if you are type 2 then all calories are not equal in how your body responds to them. A carb gram you cannot process or use for energy properly because of the diabetes will be more readily stored as body fat as there’s nowhere else for it to go than a gram of fat your body can cope with and use for energy.

You mention 25% of food as fat recommendations and a “health” diet. This very much depends who you are listening to. If you mean standard nhs mantra then all I’d say is look where this got the nation in the last 40 yrs in terms of obesity and diabetes and decide if it works or not. Has it worked long term for you in the past? Have you got where you are now in part at least because of that very advice?

I will absolutely be buying my own testing kit and monitoring my BS before and after every meal to find out what's causing the problem.

This would absolutely show you what different foods do to you. The very best thing you could do to help yourself.

- I have a acquaintance who is at least 20 stone and who has "been on the Keto diet for almost 3 years".

Who is absolutely not doing keto and I would take no notice of her results as a result.

I’m another than only ever counted macros for a couple of weeks to get the hang of which foods were high/low etc. I only pee tested ketones in this time and achieved keto at about 45g carbs per day. I then relied entirely after basis, learned in reading and counting, on my meter to show me the way. No more counting, although I do check any packaging before buying items.

As to how many carbs you can manage it’s so variable only you can discover this. I hope the methods you would like to use work. A meter would tell you much more quickly than waiting on infrequent hb1ac’s.

I also suspect you are anti keto based on preconceived ideas of rigidity. A huge % of those in here that are keto or somewhere near it don’t count macros daily and don’t chase ketosis. The aim is blood sugar control, insulin control and once achieved the weight for most follows quite naturally once the body can use the fuel it gets properly. It becomes routine and easy quite quickly. The urge for carbs disappears more than most expect it to once they stop poking the bear. Many never test for ketones. Most do rely on their meters though, at least til they have their new “normal” established.

 

[DCUKMod]

@Sarbak - I'm not big into labels or programmes.

When I was diagnosed, my focus was improving my blood glucose numbers. I didn't have a lot of weight to lose, but did have love handles, however, my rationale was that I would rather be a well controlled, well person, living with T2 and love handles, than a skinny Minnie with rampant blood glucose, potentially doing me harm, over time.

In order to reach my goal, my most important tool was my blood glucose meter, plus my records of my eating and the resultant blood score.

If I ate something an my number stayed in range, I was good to go. If I ate, and my bloods went higher than I wanted to, I knew I needed to either eat a smaller quantity of the offending item, or not eat it at all. Generally, that tactic guided me to reduce my carb intake.

That guided me to reducing my HbA1c of 73 at diagnosis to 37 about 4 months later.

In that time, I did also trim up. It just happened. My love handles melted, and have not returned.

For me, labels like "low carb", "keto", "Intermittent fasting" are great for explaining concepts, but few people's bodies react the same as another's, so for me, as a unique person, it was important to find out what worked for me.

I haven't noticed anywhere if you do home, finger prick testing of your bloods? As I say, for me, that little blood glucose meter gave me many, many lightbulb moments.

Good luck with it all. There's a lot to take in in the early days.

 

[DCUKMod]

I should have added that I am a 160cm tall, 48.5kg woman. I need to consume around 2500 calories a day to stand still, or I tend to lose weight.

We're all different.

 

[Sarbak]

You mention 25% of food as fat recommendations and a “health” diet. This very much depends who you are listening to. If you mean standard nhs mantra then all I’d say is look where this got the nation in the last 40 yrs in terms of obesity and diabetes and decide if it works or not. Has it worked long term for you in the past? Have you got where you are now in part at least because of that very advice?

Well, that's a very good point. However, it's important to point out that I've never counted calories or paid any attention to macros before, so it's not that I've ever followed that NHS advice in the past and am therefore able to say confidently that it didn't work or made me fat. Eating large portions with reckless abandon made me fat lol

I do acknowledge that our society is definitely becoming more obese as the years pass. However, I am not one to jump to conclusions. I don't know whether that's because 'we' are following the wrong advice by the NHS, whether we have just become a fast food/junk food nation, generally got too lazy - or something else. I can only speak for myself - I wasn't following the advice, so I'm giving the fat and protein guidelines a try plus adding in my own low GI and carb reduction element.

 

[MrsA2]

Hi @Sarbak and welcome
I was diagnosed in March on lockdown day. It has amazed me how much relearning I have had to do, so many old thoughts such as "must eat breakfast" "fruit is good for you" etc have been blown out of the water by my bg monitor. Only testing before and after meals shows me what foods I can tolerate and which I can't.
Priority has to be to get bg down, any weight loss is secondary but welcome side effect of that. Ignore calories totally and focus only on your bg and what carbs raise it and which don't. I haven't had bread or rice or pasta in 6 months - well I occasionally have just 2 tablespoons of cooked rice as part of a meat and fats meal as I know now that doesnt raise my bg too much. A small cup cake takes me up to 12 just by looking at it.
Try not to say "but I can't do without xxxx" until you have tested what xxxx does to your body. When i saw what wholemeal bread did to me, it has been so easy to say no to it since, it is like poison to me. Once you have tested most things and your bg is down to near normal levels, then you can start seeing how much reintroducing small amounts affects YOU, and it will be very personal ... and then may change over time too. Diabetes is a marathon journey but your pace must be guided by your bg.

I lost 2-3 stone very quickly cutting carbs and monitoring. Now I monitor less and weight loss has slowed to a lb or so a week. My body shape has changed so much and I have gone down 8 belt holes BUT weight loss was not my goal, lowering my bg was. I am rarely hungry and can say no to most foods i used to crave.

Try to keep an open mind in these early testing stages. You may be surprised by the results. Its a lot to learn, I'm still learning daily

 

[Sarbak]

As to how many carbs you can manage it’s so variable only you can discover this. I hope the methods you would like to use work. A meter would tell you much more quickly than waiting on infrequent hb1ac’s.

I agree 100%. However, having had no income or benefits for 14 months, money is very tight, so if I can effect positive change and get into remission without spending any 'unnecessary' money, I'll do that for now.

I'm getting the feeling from most people here that even if I find out that I've successfully got into remission next week, I'm being reckless in not planning to monitor my BG before and after meals for... I guess the rest of my life?!

 

[DCUKMod]

@Sarbak - once you have a handle on your personal rocket fuel (for some it's bread/grains, for others potatoes, or rice of whatever), it is usually possible to dial back on testing a bit.

Initially, I looked upon the testing as investing in myself and my health.

 

[Rocklobster]

I personally don't get the impression from this forum that we have to test before and after every meal to be responsible. At the start of my journey, almost exactly a year ago, I tested about 6 times a day to understand how my body was reacting to different foods and following the advice of my diabetic nurse ( I was lucky to get a blood monitor and told to use it). Now I only check my blood maybe 3 times a week and my readings are always below 6.5, even after food. I was in remission from a hba1c of 80 and off medication at my first 3 month blood test. I know exactly what I can eat because I tested so much at the start. I find only having to focus on keeping my carbs low makes everything so simple. I don't worry too much about what strict keto looks like and I've never tested for ketones. I do aim for about 20-40g's a day but I don't track a great deal these days. I do however avoid seed oils and I'm trying to learn more about reducing inflammation, but that's come about over time not as a way to fit into a label.

I followed various low fat diets over the years always getting yo yo results and stalling after losing 3 stone. I'd be hungry, miserable and finding food a constant battle. I started eating low carb/keto just as a way to manage my blood glucose but I've been absolutely amazed at how easy I've found it and I've lost 4st 8lbs on the way. I'm very rarely hungry and that feels like such a relief after years of constant hunger and binge eating. I'm still 18st so I have a lot of weight I could lose yet but it's not my primary goal. It just feels great to not be restricted by my weight so much, life has gotten a lot easier and more enjoyable. Not something I thought i'd be writing this time last year.

I just thought my personal story might help on a thread like this, your description of keto certainly hasn't been my experience to say the least. I'm so so grateful to have found this forum and for all the advice about low carb. I doubt I'd be in remission without all the helpful posts on here.

Good luck with it all