Have diabetics been thrown to the wolves during the COVID-19 pandemic?

[t1dluke]

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone felt the same as me. I remember reading a study out of China back in February which assessed who were most vulnerable to COVID, it showed that approx 7.3% of all diabetic patients with covid died.

So I knew prior to first wave in the UK that diabetics were vulnerable but it seemed that those in power in the UK dragged their feet and let the pandemic get out of control. In typical UK fashion we were reactionary and not proactive.

So the first wave comes and goes and then Public Health England publish a study showing that 26% of all COVID deaths in England and Wales during the first wave were people with diabetes. It also suggested those with type 1 and type 2 diabetes are respectively 3.5x and 2x more likely to die from COVID than those without diabetes.

So when I read this I thought to myself "well yeah I could have told you that was going to happen".

So from these observations I've come to the following conclusions:

1. The government did not and will not include diabetics on the sheilding list because there are too many of us.
2. The government is actively pursuing a herd immunity strategy (without saying it out loud) and is only concerned about the NHS reaching capacity, not about protecting the vulnerable.
3. 'COVID secure workplace' is probably the most BS phrase I've ever heard.

Would be great to get people's perspective on this.

Here are the links to the papers I referenced in the text:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762130

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(20)30272-2/fulltext

 

[EllieM]

1. The government did not and will not include diabetics on the sheilding list because there are too many of us.
2. The government is actively pursuing a herd immunity strategy (without saying it out loud) and is only concerned about the NHS reaching capacity, not about protecting the vulnerable.
3. 'COVID secure workplace' is probably the most BS phrase I've ever heard.

1) Partially true, but the largest covid risk factor is age. T1 diabetes effectively adds 7 years to your covid age? So a young T1 is probably not at high risk. Diabetes is just one factor, along with age, other comorbidities, sex and race, so I wouldn't use it on its own to say a person should shield.

2) Herd immunity strategy? That was the idea at the beginning, I believe, but I think the political fallout from a collapsed NHS would be too great.

3) True, specially schools.

Look, it's not just the UK with issues, most of the Northern hemisphere is now having a bad time. However, I think the UK is doing particularly badly because of a certain politician's reluctance to do anything until the last minute. Not the right quality for a leader in times of COVID.

I'm lucky enough to live in New Zealand, where quick and fierce lockdowns mean that I now feel safe from covid, and all I need to do is try to remember to photo covid symbols with my phone when I go out and about, so that if it comes back my movements can be traced.

If a lockdown is required then the sooner you do it the better, and I still don't understand why England isn't locking down schools and universities. And you have had more than 6 months to try to get some sort of track and trace working....

My sympathies to you all, good luck.

 

[MarkMunday]

We need to be careful to avoid confusing association and cause here. The fact that lots of people who have died from COVID had diabetes does not mean that all diabetics have increased risk of dying in this way. Only those who also have the predisposing underlying conditions, like age, heart disease and lung disease. People who have those issues need to take extra precautions. I am yet to see evidence of healthy young people with diabetes doing worse with COVID than the general population. Be careful what you read into epidemiological observations. Especially after it has been dramatised by the media. The studies find an association between death and diabetes, but the absolute risk of death for people with diabetes is unknown.

 

[sleepster]

@EllieM I'm curious where you got the figure of 7 years from?
Using https://alama.org.uk/covid-19-medical-risk-assessment/ Type 1 adds between 22 and 28 years and type 2 adds between 20 and 22 years to your covid age, depending on your hba1c. I like 7 years better than 25

 

[MarkMunday]

@EllieM I'm curious where you got the figure of 7 years from?
Using https://alama.org.uk/covid-19-medical-risk-assessment/ Type 1 adds between 22 and 28 years and type 2 adds between 20 and 22 years to your covid age, depending on your hba1c. I like 7 years better than 25

That COVID age concept is very shaky. After reading the article, I still don't get it. It is an attempt to load risk factors in a simple summative way. Life is never that simple. The so called COVID age number has no real significance. The loading Ellie referred to comes from insurance tables showing how much sooner people with diabetes die. It is out of date simply because it is based on history. It is also problematic because life expectancy for diabetics depends on how well the condition is controlled. Averages are meaningless. It is the comorbidities often suffered by people with diabetes that increase risk of dying prematurely, from COVID or from anything else.

 

[Jo_the_boat]

Is it not the case that when referring to 'T1 and T2 diabetics are 'X' more likely to succumb to Covid......, the crucial words missed are 'poorly controlled' T1 and T2.....?
I agree Mark, averages are meaningless.
Then there are the undiagnosed who are found to have raised glucose / diabetes when hospitalized or autopsied. Are they lumped into the figures?

At the end of the day we are responsible for ourselves. If we are vulnerable we need to manage our lives accordingly. That surely includes looking after our health the best we can. Some of us are fortunate that we can avoid situations where we are more likely to catch covid. The workplace is a difficult environment for someone vulnerable and I can understand how hard it must be for people who have to (in effect) put themselves in harms way to feed their kids. Awful. I'm not surpirised people are having mental health issues.

Made more awful because I believe the current reaction to the virus is based on spurious science
I read stuff by Yeadon, Kendrick, Cummins et. al and find the published figures and forecasts irreconcilable with what they (and many others) are saying.

Anyhow for the next month I've decided to give up my (beloved) red wine, finish the book I'm writing, lose half a stone and see I can persuade my wife to dig the footings for my new shed.
Let's see if we can come out of this latest incarceration with something positive to show for it.

Don't know about you but every time I talk or write about this **** virus I start feeling poorly!

 

[ert]

What everyone with severe Covid had in common was depleted t-cells, rather than underlying conditions or age.

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/what-...n-why-immunity-is-about-more-than-antibodies/

 

[hankjam]

You could probably add non-covid collateral damage to those thrown to the wolves.
There never was a response plan......

 

[Fairygodmother]

As an ‘elderly’ T1 I’m very very aware of my personal risks should I be unfortunate enough to get the wily virus. I’m also increasingly frustrated by not being recognised as being more at risk, especially by whoever has decided whether or not I can access delivery services for food. I’ve just trawled through the sites and Sainsburys has the gall to tell me that it doesn’t recognise me as vulnerable. Joined up thinking isn’t limited to the government, it’s an English disease.
Off now to watch fish swim and stroke the cat before my anger raises my blood sugars.

 

[KK123]

Personally, I don't think they should have put all diabetics on the shielding list as there are as many differences in health between diabetics as there are between the general public. Why would a 25 yr very well managed diabetic automatically be in the same risk category as a 50 yr old not so well managed one, (and I say managed whilst knowing of course that even the best managed diabetes can still result in issues and vice versa). With the conditions that are on the shielding list, they tend to be quite specific, ie those with heart problems are likely to be at a higher risk collectively as their hearts are not working as they should no matter their general health. With diabetes you may have issues that diabetes can cause (heart/liver/kidneys etc) but they are not inevitable and not every diabetic has them right now. I think that the criteria for those with diabetes is set about right, yes, you're at a higher risk relative to those without it but that risk needs to be assessed in conjunction with the rest of your state of health, ie, taken into account by your GP/Consultant and an overall 'score' worked out. That ain't easy of course and this is where I think the system has failed, not enough (if any) emphasis has been placed on the duty of GPs/Employers that they have a job to do with those that have diabetes (or other underlying conditions) and that job involves doing a proper individual risk assessment.

 

[urbanracer]

I am not a fan of this government but I certainly don't envy them at the moment. As time goes on it becomes clear that everything is a compromise, and the outcomes from contracting Covid cannot be predicted until you get it.

I know a guy some 30 years younger than me, pretty fit with an active lifestyle and an outdoor job at Gatwick airport and no known underlying health conditions. He has just been admitted to hospital with Covid. His newly pregnant wife also has tested positive for it and is now alone at home worrying herself stupid about everything.

With so many unknowns, to say that diabetics have been thrown to the wolves is a bit far in my humble opinion.

 

[Member496333]

Everyone has been thrown to the wolves.

 

[Fairygodmother]

Woohoo, Sainsburys must have got wind of this elderly T1’s anger - just managed to book a slot.
Anger can now be completely aimed at prevaricating govt. Next focus, masks in schools, closing schools and FE colleges. What else should I add?

 

[Member496333]

What else should I add?

Turn the news off and get back to normal.

 

[Fairygodmother]

Don’t be daft @Jim Lahey, my erstwhile ‘normal’’s either been closed since March or they’re distancing and on zoom. Normal won’t occur until the U.K. gets better.

 

[zand]

Turn the news off and get back to normal.

Don’t be daft @Jim Lahey, my erstwhile ‘normal’’s either been closed since March or they’re distancing and on zoom. Normal won’t occur until the U.K. gets better.

Just shows how all our lives differ, doesn't it, even amongst us forumites? I guess my own view lies in between the 2 expressed here. Some things here are normal, others far from it.

 

[Antje77]

So the first wave comes and goes and then Public Health England publish a study showing that 26% of all COVID deaths in England and Wales during the first wave were people with diabetes.

What was the average age of people who died from covid?
What percentage of people in this age group has diabetes?
I think you should only count the difference between the two.

 

[becca59]

Don’t be daft @Jim Lahey, my erstwhile ‘normal’’s either been closed since March or they’re distancing and on zoom. Normal won’t occur until the U.K. gets better.

I feel sad about that. The new normal may not ever happen.

 

[TimberYardBen]

I personally don't feel thrown to the wolves in general due to Covid. I do however think it has highlighted previous failings that were always present. A few, not many here, may have seen my first post not long ago based upon my needle phobia and general issues with my type 1 diabetes (I'm making strides as we speak ). The trouble is, I think that there are so many of us diabetics it becomes a "Normal" and as a result, easily dismissed condition.
I run a business and my other half is self employed, meaning we generally don't have much choice but to work long hours. I have employees who rely on me for their mortgage and weren't eligible for the furlough originally. We received absolutely no support whatsoever during the initial wave and continue not to. I do believe however that we should be more accountable for our own choices/decisions when it comes to this terrible pandemic. The government cannot sustain every possible vulnerable person for an indefinite length of time, neither can they allow for individual circumstances within those venerable.
Anyone not comfortable leaving the house or going to work has the right and opportunity to not do so. We all need to exercise common sense and do what we are comfortable doing. This is not the governments responsibility to tell us all what to do, but rather advise and try to keep things controllable, a pretty impossible job in my opinion.

 

[Member496333]

What was the average age of people who died from covid?

Apparently the average age of COVID related death is 82. Older than the average age of death. Let that sink in.