COVID vaccination

[TriciaWs]

Seven months for a trial that should normally take years, no chance I’m taking it unless I’m forced to at work. I will eventually take it once I know people aren’t growing extra ears or bursting into flames but diabetic or not I ain’t being anyone’s trial beagle. Remember the miracle thalidomide treatment for pregnant women...yes it wasn’t a vaccine but regardless I ain’t trusting no vaccine for now

The issue with Thalidomide was that medicines and vaccines were often only tested on animals then male prisoners at that time (they could volunteer to get time off sentences or other perks). Now we recognise that new drugs and vaccines need to be tested on pregnant animals, then both sexes and a range of ages and ethnicities. And as others have pointed out the main lag in development is funding, needed at various stages.
Funding is a huge issue, I was involved in running testing for a new method of detecting early eye damage (MS, diabetic, etc.) but it was dropped even though the first stage was looking good because the funding dried up.

 

[Catlady19]

Especially considering that the pharmacutical companies have been given immunity from legal challenges should it cause harm...

Actually that is not strictly true...
https://fullfact.org/health/unlicen...rers-are-immune-some-not-all-civil-liability/

 

[Fizzy1408]

Is it the one being offered by Pfizer? Depends on how much you trust a drug company about this? They have been prosecuted and fined in the past for making false marketing claims.

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/pfi...lkb3O0cxU7vgOVUBvRvIVtYinqcga7t6hg0p8laVa9XMU

Wow! That’s a bit of an eye opener!

 

[LizLola]

Hiya, listen to this doctor, he explains it quite clearly.

Er - no it doesn't. I didn't claim any of the things he is refuting in the video. I am suggesting that the protein that the cells make in answer to the messenger RNA could be seen as a foreign protein (and in fact, that is what they want, it's how this vaccine works) and possibly spark an OTT immune response as RNA hasn't been used in quite this way before.

 

[Oldvatr]

'Spreading anti-vax garbage' is a very immflamatory statement - as if anyone who raises a question or a doubt immediately become an 'anti-vaxxer'!! The vaccine debate is far, far more complex than simply being pro or anti vaccine - and it is further complicated by the vast sums of money that stood to made by the drugs companies who demonstrably have a vested interest in selling a vaccine to us. It is simply not possible to have tested this vaccine for safety, as they may know the results for 3 months or 6 months even at a stretch - but how are the participants doing after 12 months / 24 months / 36 months / 120 months? Their rate of Covid (presumably) has gone down - but what about their rate of diabetes, thyroid, asthma, coeliac, alzheimers etc - as it's the immune system that vaccines are working on, presumably we'll be checking how the auto-immue disorders do?? Oh yes that's right, we try not to look at that because correlation does not equal causation and the numbers do not look at all good. I am neither pro nor anti vaccine, but am highly sceptical of anything anyone tries to make me do, when they stand to make so much money from it and when I do not see intelligent and transparent disclosure of the issues that surround it. The human body and the immune system is far more complicated than vaccine therapy and it is staggeringly arrogant to think that anyone knows all there is to know about it - least of all me.

Do you take a statin? Or a BP med? Or an OTC supplement? maybe a new cough medicine? Or use Ibuprofen or other NSAID that have all recently appeared om the market? SGLT-2 or GLP-1 med? How long do you wait, and does it matter if it is a widely used med, or just a niche treatment with few participants? You mention 2 years. Are you sure that covid will not get to you between now and then? Or will you wait till 50% of the others in the UK have had the vaccine before you decide to relax? It is your choice but I am placed at increased risk by your choice, so I claim the right to object to your choice. Especially since I am in the category that will generally not survive an infection.

 

[Max68]

I had whuflu in October 2019 and recovered quite happily after a week of flu-like symptoms...

Pleased you were ok. Some people recover and some don't, or some recover to an extent but have long term issues, it's all a bit of a lottery and that's the problem as no one knows how they are going to fare until they go through it.

I certainly respect others decision not to have the vaccine., For me I don't really see any other choice as I would rather not gamble on getting the virus. The tick box for me though would be the opportunity to give my mum a hug again for the first time in nearly a year. She is stuck in a care home with dementia with no physical contact with family for all that time. If she and I don't have the vaccine then what other options are there for me to be able to give her that hug? Waiting around for me or her to pick up the virus and wait and see how we deal with it? Hoping for natural herd immunity? Waiting for it to die out like Spanish Flu? Not too many great options there....

I can understand peoples concerns about vaccines. I have first hand experience because I lost my hearing back in the 70's due to a reaction to the Whooping Cough vaccine (allegedly). However as a youngster I also saw a good friend of mine, a little girl aged just 6 die of whooping cough which was horrendous as a kid to see one of your best friends die. I found out later that her family were religious and didn't believe in vaccinations. I guess there are always risks whichever way you decide!

 

[Fizzy1408]

Seven months for a trial that should normally take years, no chance I’m taking it unless I’m forced to at work. I will eventually take it once I know people aren’t growing extra ears or bursting into flames but diabetic or not I ain’t being anyone’s trial beagle. Remember the miracle thalidomide treatment for pregnant women...yes it wasn’t a vaccine but regardless I ain’t trusting no vaccine for now

Yes, I remember the thalidomide treatment. It was my generation that it affected. I understand your anxiety. I feel that 7 months is a very short time to trial any vaccine. I’m not sure how I feel about it, I’m very cautious by nature and I’ve heard so many things for and against. I don’t know about growing extra ears etc. (Obviously a tongue in cheek remark) but does it alter your DNA in any detrimental form, is what I would like to know?

 

[Fizzy1408]

If there's a Covid Vaccine. I am more than willing to try.
I also would like to try the influenza vaccine, but as ( in my area anyway) the administration of the vaccine, has been a complete and utter shambles, and whoever is in charge should be sacked, for neglect and incompetence.
They are putting lives at stake. And you can bet their families will already have it done. Shameful.

I don’t know what area you live in, but we had flu vaccines back in September in our area. I hope you manage to get one!

 

[JudiP]

I have had a delightful conversation with my friends this evening about the COVID vaccination. It was interesting to see everyone’s perspective. We were split in the middle between taking it immediately and not taking it at all.

I must admit this us something which worries me slightly. As I understand it, this vaccine uses a small dose of the actual virus. As diabetes type 2 is deemed to be due to low immune response, is there a danger that the immune system might not respond sufficiently and therefore the recipient could end ip with the full virus?

 

[bulkbiker]

modern world has never faced a pandemic on this scale

What scale would that be..?
COVID this "dreadful fatal virus" has so far killed an extra 9 days worth of people on a global level.
1.36 million in total compared to over 150k who die every day anyway.
It is fairly well down on the list of things that kill us.
Way below heart disease, strokes, cancers and medical treatments.

Maybe a bit of perspective is required here?

 

[Oldvatr]

Er - no it doesn't. I didn't claim any of the things he is refuting in the video. I am suggesting that the protein that the cells make in answer to the messenger RNA could be seen as a foreign protein (and in fact, that is what they want, it's how this vaccine works) and possibly spark an OTT immune response as RNA hasn't been used in quite this way before.

Erm - Bovine insulin is foreign to our bodies, but we seem to survive with using it, but some will die without it. Cowpox is the brother of smallpox. One kills us, the other cures us. A similar principle to the covid treatment. Was the Ebola vaccine rushed and found to be harmful? No, it turned out to be a lifesaver. Sometimes we have to take risks, but do our best to make risk reduction a priority.

After all, sex can both create life, and cause death. One certainty is that death follows sex. It may take 100 years or so, but mortality after sex is a given.

 

[bulkbiker]

Actually that is not strictly true...
https://fullfact.org/health/unlicen...rers-are-immune-some-not-all-civil-liability/

It will have to be "licensed" before it is released..
If you think that is a safeguard then I have a nice Tower Bridge for sale...

 

[Oldvatr]

What scale would that be..?
COVID this "dreadful fatal virus" has so far killed an extra 9 days worth of people on a global level.
1.36 million in total compared to over 150k who die every day anyway.
It is fairly well down on the list of things that kill us.
Way below heart disease, strokes, cancers and medical treatments.

Maybe a bit of perspective is required here?

Spanish Flu was responsible for over 50 million deaths in a little over a year. But if we leave this unchecked then we get a situation similar to the trick played by Joseph in Egypt. Pay me by placing corn on squares on a chessboard. Each square is to be double the previous one. It gave Joseph and his fraternal syndicate complete ownership of the Pharoah's corn stocks. This is the formula behind the parabola curve in geometry which stretches theoretically to infinity. I.E is never-ending and all-consuming.

 

[tmule4]

This thread is absolutely staggering. I feel that I have suddenly arrived at a Trump rally, sharing conspiracy theories and a breeding ground for anti-vax garbage. Exhaustive, huge-sample testing, disaggregated results and peer review will do for me. I rely on insulin and I will similarly rely on either of the two vaccines that are coming on stream and hope that all but a tiny minority do so too.

Agree entirely. You could not have put it better. I hope to be as near the front of the queue for vaccination as I can get, as I am 83, T2D.

 

[bulkbiker]

But if we leave this unchecked then we get a situation similar to the trick played by Joseph in Egypt

But COVID infections are not growing and have never grown exponentially. Neither are deaths.

 

[Oldvatr]

But COVID infections are not growing and have never grown exponentially. Neither are deaths.

Thankfully there are some in the world who choose to take sensible precautions and also some governments who manage to mandate such measures, and this coupled with improved interventions by the medics is helping mankind slow down the spread compared to the year 1918, or 1340 say. It is not going to be exponential ad absurdum simply because one way or another it will run out of victims to infect. This is the principle of Herd Immunity. We can now cheat on this by using the vaccine to artificially create antibodies rather than using the life/death lottery of chance to do it. However, the possibility of the runaway train is not too far away now, and much more suffering will be the result of leaving things to nature. Herd immunity is a very wasteful process. I myself do not wish to be accused of culpable homicide if I get the chance to do an intervention but throw it away. I'm alright Jack, will you be?

 

[Catlady19]

Er - no it doesn't. I didn't claim any of the things he is refuting in the video. I am suggesting that the protein that the cells make in answer to the messenger RNA could be seen as a foreign protein (and in fact, that is what they want, it's how this vaccine works) and possibly spark an OTT immune response as RNA hasn't been used in quite this way before.

Apologies, I didn't think that you implied or thought anything - I thought you wanted an explanation of how the RNA vaccine worked and he explains that quite well I thought.

 

[Catlady19]

What scale would that be..?
COVID this "dreadful fatal virus" has so far killed an extra 9 days worth of people on a global level.
1.36 million in total compared to over 150k who die every day anyway.
It is fairly well down on the list of things that kill us.
Way below heart disease, strokes, cancers and medical treatments.

Maybe a bit of perspective is required here?

Heart disease, strokes, cancers, etc are not contagious whereas Covid19 most definitely is.
England and Wales has seen an extra 58,900+ extra deaths so far this year, whilst these are not all going to be Covid related I am willing to bet the majority are. I am sure the families and friends of those deceased would not agree with your dismissive attitude.
There is a strong chance that if this was not being treated as "dreadful fatal virus" that the numbers of dead would be high enough to satisfy your scale. How many deaths do you think might be acceptable?

 

[Catlady19]

It will have to be "licensed" before it is released..
If you think that is a safeguard then I have a nice Tower Bridge for sale...

That isn't what I said. I was just pointing out that his claim was not strictly true!

 

[Jo_the_boat]

There is a difference between having a debate about an issue or voicing views that the vaccine has been produced too quickly and feeding completely ludicrous false information into the public domain though.

This is the very nub of it.
We need an open, non profit-based, non politically-based, all opinion debate.
In effect we need to weed out false information - both pro and anti vaccine. Neither side is squeaky clean.
What worries people is that the pro voice is far more powerful. That's why the anti resort to 'shock' tactics.
In addition, the vast majority desperately WANT a vaccine to be safe, so some are blind to the potential dangers.
Many people seem to be focussing on Christmas, not long term.
I have questions and need clarity. Having seen spurious practices regarding the efficacy of statins I am coming from a position of scepticism.
BUT, if the vaccines are truly safe for everyone, bring it on.