Why won't the NHS tell you the secret to treating diabetes?

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Jim Lahey pointed out that my Hba1c is the equivalent of 6.52, with the help of the conversion table he recommended. And that this is poor.

Wait. It wasn't my intention to imply that your HbA1c and thus estimated mean glucose is poor. I was opining that it's slightly elevated above what I would regard as 'normal'. The context was that, with this in mind, I would expect to see a slightly raised fasting insulin trying to maintain a lower fasting glucose, and that if this were not the case, it would indicate perhaps an insulin deficiency. I felt this was relevant to the discussion regarding beta cell function.

I'm not in the business of judging other people's efforts. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.
 

Tannith

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Wait. It wasn't my intention to imply that your HbA1c and thus estimated mean glucose is poor. I was opining that it's slightly elevated above what I would regard as 'normal'. The context was that, with this in mind, I would expect to see a slightly raised fasting insulin trying to maintain a lower fasting glucose, and that if this were not the case, it would indicate perhaps an insulin deficiency. I felt this was relevant to the discussion regarding beta cell function.

I'm not in the business of judging other people's efforts. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.
Thanks Jim. I did not take it as a criticism. Far from being offended I'm very glad that you drew my attention to the conversion table which I knew nothing about,and to the corresponding level of HbA1c. I am grateful to you for doing that. "Poor" was my own interpretation of the 6.5 figure" I didn't think you were unreasonable or personally judging me. I judge myself.
 

HSSS

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Jim Lahey pointed out that my Hba1c is the equivalent of 6.52, with the help of the conversion table he recommended. And that this is poor. I have only tables online to go by. This site says:
"The following results indicate the presence of prediabetes:

  • Fasting plasma glucose: 5.5 mmol/L to 6.9 mmol/L"
  • which means my HBa1c shows I am pre diabetic. That was a bit of a wake up call as I thought I had got my FBG down sufficiently, but obviously I had not.
  • Despite constantly banging on about ND in order to make sure plenty of people know how it works, and more importantly that there is a limited window of opportunity for using it, I absolutely hate the process of actually doing it. I would not recommend it because it is easy - I found it really hard- but because for many it works so well. Rest assured I am in no danger of becoming addicted to dieting! Just to getting rid of my T2
Your hb1ac of 39 is not prediabetic. That begins at 42mmol. https://www.diabetes.co.uk/pre-diabetes.html.

Be careful not to mix up hb1ac in % (5.7 for you) , fbg in mmol (unknown) and average bgl in mmol (6.5). They look similar but are all quite different.

You keep referring to fgb as the criteria on which you are basing many decisions. And not even a measured fbg but a converted equivalent bgl from hb1ac. This is fraught with issues. Not least a false equivalence and dawn phenomenon. It is one of a range of measures that need to be seen in their entirety. Each measure has its own benefits and limitations. Consider them all not a single one.
 

lucylocket61

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Your hb1ac of 39 is not prediabetic. That begins at 42mmol. https://www.diabetes.co.uk/pre-diabetes.html.

Be careful not to mix up hb1ac in % (5.7 for you) , fbg in mmol (unknown) and average bgl in mmol (6.5). They look similar but are all quite different.

You keep referring to fgb as the criteria on which you are basing many decisions. And not even a measured fbg but a converted equivalent bgl from hb1ac. This is fraught with issues. Not least a false equivalence and dawn phenomenon. It is one of a range of measures that need to be seen in their entirety. Each measure has its own benefits and limitations. Consider them all not a single one.
Especially as some of us, including me, never reduce our fbg due to dawn phenomenon doing its thing the moment we open our eyes, regardless of what happens for the rest of the day.

Even after 9 successful years, my fbg is 8+ every morning. It's just the way some bodies work.
 

Tannith

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You keep on making this claim with absolutely zero evidence to back it up.

Please stop.. it's patently untrue as ViRTA have shown multiple times with many patients.

At diagnosis B cell function is reduced to 50% of normal. (below) Further there is only a 50% chance of those beta cells being restored to their normal function after 10 years of diabetes.(above https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/) Which you challenge apparently because you deny that the beta cells malfunction in T2.

The Pathologic Basis of Disease Progression
At the diagnosis of type 2 diabetes, β-cell function is typically reduced to 50% of normal [as shown] by HOMA modeling and to a greater extent on dynamic testing (1,18). Despite the initial effect of diet and oral therapy to lower glucose, observational studies have shown that disease progression is associated with inexorably declining β-cell function and progression to insulin commencement, with relatively minor changes in underlying insulin resistance. …...Postmortem pancreatic pathology studies, based on presence of staining for cells that contain insulin, have suggested that β-cell mass is significantly reduced in type 2 diabetes in comparison with age-, sex-, and BMI-matched control individuals without diabetes (2). Although it is accepted that increased apoptosis plays a role in decreased β-cell mass over time, pancreatic pathology findings in a large cohort of European subjects indicate that apoptosis alone is insufficient to explain the profound islet dysfunction in established type 2 diabetes (22). Other factors must contribute to the described decrease in cells that stain positive for insulin in the pancreatic islets. https://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/39/11/2080
 
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HSSS

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At diagnosis B cell function is reduced to 50% of normal. (below) Further there is only a 50% chance of those beta cells being restored to their normal function after 10 years of diabetes.(above https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/) Which you challenge apparently because you deny that the beta cells malfunction in T2.

The Pathologic Basis of Disease Progression
At the diagnosis of type 2 diabetes, β-cell function is typically reduced to 50% of normal [as shown] by HOMA modeling and to a greater extent on dynamic testing (1,18). Despite the initial effect of diet and oral therapy to lower glucose, observational studies have shown that disease progression is associated with inexorably declining β-cell function and progression to insulin commencement, with relatively minor changes in underlying insulin resistance. …...Postmortem pancreatic pathology studies, based on presence of staining for cells that contain insulin, have suggested that β-cell mass is significantly reduced in type 2 diabetes in comparison with age-, sex-, and BMI-matched control individuals without diabetes (2). Although it is accepted that increased apoptosis plays a role in decreased β-cell mass over time, pancreatic pathology findings in a large cohort of European subjects indicate that apoptosis alone is insufficient to explain the profound islet dysfunction in established type 2 diabetes (22). Other factors must contribute to the described decrease in cells that stain positive for insulin in the pancreatic islets. https://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/39/11/2080
I’m about to read the paper you link to but first comments are that for every paper saying one thing they’ll be another saying something slightly or totally different. A consensus of good solid studies helps form an opinion better than a single paper.
Secondly I’ll be looking for what the “diet” is that links to disease progression.
 

lucylocket61

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At diagnosis B cell function is reduced to 50% of normal. (below) Further there is only a 50% chance of those beta cells being restored to their normal function after 10 years of diabetes.(above https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/) Which you challenge apparently because you deny that the beta cells malfunction in T2.

The Pathologic Basis of Disease Progression
At the diagnosis of type 2 diabetes, β-cell function is typically reduced to 50% of normal [as shown] by HOMA modeling and to a greater extent on dynamic testing (1,18). Despite the initial effect of diet and oral therapy to lower glucose, observational studies have shown that disease progression is associated with inexorably declining β-cell function and progression to insulin commencement, with relatively minor changes in underlying insulin resistance. …...Postmortem pancreatic pathology studies, based on presence of staining for cells that contain insulin, have suggested that β-cell mass is significantly reduced in type 2 diabetes in comparison with age-, sex-, and BMI-matched control individuals without diabetes (2). Although it is accepted that increased apoptosis plays a role in decreased β-cell mass over time, pancreatic pathology findings in a large cohort of European subjects indicate that apoptosis alone is insufficient to explain the profound islet dysfunction in established type 2 diabetes (22). Other factors must contribute to the described decrease in cells that stain positive for insulin in the pancreatic islets. https://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/39/11/2080
All I can say is Not Necessarily.

We are all different. There have been several sub-types of type 2 diabetes identified already. There are many different causes and triggers identified for type 2 diabetes. It's not as straightforward as you seem to think.

Different research also uses different parameters within a sub-type.

Finally, nothing I can see in the research you have posted shows that you can diet your way down to reanimation of the dead cells they describe.

You will make your own decisions. Choose wisely.
 
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bulkbiker

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β-cell mass is significantly reduced in type 2 diabetes

Do you not think that might just be due to the fact that their pancreatic function has been destroyed by decades of injecting exogenous insulin?
It may be the treatment of their T2 that has caused the problem and not the T2 itself? .....
probably not I guess.
 

VashtiB

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Perhaps I should have used the expression "Newcastle Method" ie substantial weight loss sufficient to remove pancreatic fat. Prof Taylor has said that any diet will do as long as it achieves the necessary weight loss, and that bariatric surgery works also. I believe they used shakes in the studies just to achieve uniformity among the subjects so that their diets were comparable. I used real food because, having tried shakes when at university, I found them revolting.
Hi Tannith,

I haven't read all the replies yet- I just felt so strongly I wanted to post. I am less than 18 months after diagnosis- I've lost over 30 kgs- so according to your theory I should now have cured my diabetes or at lest reduced it- not my experience at all. Any amount of arbs over 10 grams in one meal and my blood sugars spike. Probably less than when I first started but certainly enough to know I am still a diabetic. Your theory would lead me to despair- sorry. I want so much to be able to get to a stage where I can tolerate carbs but I don't ever expect to. If I still had any theory that I Ould just lower my calories and fix it I would but that is what set me up for diabetes. I've restricted my calories for years and years- my husband an testify. My doctors never believed me because I would stop losing weight. They believe I'm incapable of counting calories but let me say I can calorie count with the best of them. For me low calorie will not cure my diabetes .
 

Tannith

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Hi Tannith,

I haven't read all the replies yet- I just felt so strongly I wanted to post. I am less than 18 months after diagnosis- I've lost over 30 kgs- so according to your theory I should now have cured my diabetes or at lest reduced it- not my experience at all. Any amount of arbs over 10 grams in one meal and my blood sugars spike. Probably less than when I first started but certainly enough to know I am still a diabetic. Your theory would lead me to despair- sorry. I want so much to be able to get to a stage where I can tolerate carbs but I don't ever expect to. If I still had any theory that I Ould just lower my calories and fix it I would but that is what set me up for diabetes. I've restricted my calories for years and years- my husband an testify. My doctors never believed me because I would stop losing weight. They believe I'm incapable of counting calories but let me say I can calorie count with the best of them. For me low calorie will not cure my diabetes .
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00125-017-4504-z
https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwncla...e/files/Taylor et al Cell Metabolism 2018.pdf


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/
https://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#publicinformation
Hi Vashti
I am so sorry to hear that this diet has not worked for you. I would have thought it would have done with a weight loss of 30 kgs. Is it possible you have had T2 longer than you think - you mention restricting your calories for years and years? I have put some links above that explain the diet better than I can. It is not my theory of course, but that of Prof Taylor and colleagues at Newcastle University, where they have an extra sensitive MRI scanner which can measure pancreatic fat.
 
M

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It seems I had undiagnosed diabetes for at least ten years (add another ten for the pathology) and gained weight when I reversed it whilst not counting a single calorie or ever going hungry. Just saying. Obviously we're not all the same.
 

Tannith

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Your hb1ac of 39 is not prediabetic. That begins at 42mmol. https://www.diabetes.co.uk/pre-diabetes.html.

Be careful not to mix up hb1ac in % (5.7 for you) , fbg in mmol (unknown) and average bgl in mmol (6.5). They look similar but are all quite different.

You keep referring to fgb as the criteria on which you are basing many decisions. And not even a measured fbg but a converted equivalent bgl from hb1ac. This is fraught with issues. Not least a false equivalence and dawn phenomenon. It is one of a range of measures that need to be seen in their entirety. Each measure has its own benefits and limitations. Consider them all not a single one.
I'm going to go by FBG readings on my monitor and keep dieting until they get down to 4 or just over, as that, I think, is normal FBG for non diabetics. I have no access to fancy tests like insulin levels.
 

ert

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VashtiB

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https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00125-017-4504-z
https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/Taylor et al Cell Metabolism 2018.pdf


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/
https://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#publicinformation
Hi Vashti
I am so sorry to hear that this diet has not worked for you. I would have thought it would have done with a weight loss of 30 kgs. Is it possible you have had T2 longer than you think - you mention restricting your calories for years and years? I have put some links above that explain the diet better than I can. It is not my theory of course, but that of Prof Taylor and colleagues at Newcastle University, where they have an extra sensitive MRI scanner which can measure pancreatic fat.
I'm sure I haven't had it for more than a year before my diagnosis as I have had my HbA1 tested every year as my family have a history of diabetes. So the longest I could have had it is less than 3 years- less than 2.5 years in fact.

All I really wanted you to know is that your theory doesn't explain everyone- there are others here that it also doesn't explain so maybe the theory is wrong or incomplete. The problem with that theory is that if that had been what I heard first rather than LCHF I would still be getting higher blood sugar levels and wouldn't have lost the weight I had. It is the very first time I have lost weight without calorie counting. It is such a relief to be able to eat and not be hungry. Also I am so much less hungry without carbs so m y baseline hunger is so much less. I feel almost 'normal' for the first time in a long time. I'm still diabetic and still would really love it if I weren't but this site has given me a sustainable life. I can keep low. arb forever- not what I would choose but a choice I make to stop the complications on diabetes . The people here are amazing and have helped me from the start. I am sorry but your theory would led me to despair because I would fail.
 

Tannith

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I'm sure I haven't had it for more than a year before my diagnosis as I have had my HbA1 tested every year as my family have a history of diabetes. So the longest I could have had it is less than 3 years- less than 2.5 years in fact.

All I really wanted you to know is that your theory doesn't explain everyone- there are others here that it also doesn't explain so maybe the theory is wrong or incomplete. The problem with that theory is that if that had been what I heard first rather than LCHF I would still be getting higher blood sugar levels and wouldn't have lost the weight I had. It is the very first time I have lost weight without calorie counting. It is such a relief to be able to eat and not be hungry. Also I am so much less hungry without carbs so m y baseline hunger is so much less. I feel almost 'normal' for the first time in a long time. I'm still diabetic and still would really love it if I weren't but this site has given me a sustainable life. I can keep low. arb forever- not what I would choose but a choice I make to stop the complications on diabetes . The people here are amazing and have helped me from the start. I am sorry but your theory would led me to despair because I would fail.
I'm glad you have found a diet that suits you. Good luck.
 

hankjam

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I'm sure I haven't had it for more than a year before my diagnosis as I have had my HbA1 tested every year as my family have a history of diabetes. So the longest I could have had it is less than 3 years- less than 2.5 years in fact.

All I really wanted you to know is that your theory doesn't explain everyone- there are others here that it also doesn't explain so maybe the theory is wrong or incomplete. The problem with that theory is that if that had been what I heard first rather than LCHF I would still be getting higher blood sugar levels and wouldn't have lost the weight I had. It is the very first time I have lost weight without calorie counting. It is such a relief to be able to eat and not be hungry. Also I am so much less hungry without carbs so m y baseline hunger is so much less. I feel almost 'normal' for the first time in a long time. I'm still diabetic and still would really love it if I weren't but this site has given me a sustainable life. I can keep low. arb forever- not what I would choose but a choice I make to stop the complications on diabetes . The people here are amazing and have helped me from the start. I am sorry but your theory would led me to despair because I would fail.

Been low carbing for sometime now and often after a meal I will be able to say.... I could eat that all over again, no problems.
The family, who have had a standard amount of carbs along with their meal.... they just say, no way.

I've eaten and yet I am neither full nor hungry and it's okay.

You sound to be doing just fine @VashtiB
 

Mr_Pot

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DCUKMod

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