Why won't the NHS tell you the secret to treating diabetes?

[lucylocket61]

as it is widely known that there is only one way to completely reverse it ie

Really? Perhaps do more research on causes and treatment and how complete these claims for total reversal for the rest of someone's life are.

 

[Tannith]

omit the only, recognise the can is not a will, and how well is that advice doing for the diabetic epidemic using low calorie methods? Weight loss is also achieved by low carb methods. And who in here is not trying to improve their type 2?

Once again our issue isn’t that weight loss might put diabetes into remission in some cases. It is your insistence that it works for all type 2 within 6 yrs of diagnosis (not even prof Taylor claimed that). Can you evidence complete total reversal, by any method at all, for type 2? For how long? Also that low calorie it is the only method that can achieve the desired weight loss. Low carb/keto has the same or even better results on weight loss, visceral fat and blood glucose (and even more importantly on insulin sensitivity) and the studies have been linked to many times. It also is without the risks of semi starvation, hunger and metabolism slow down.

you have obviously read a lot about the Newcastle methods. Can I ask have you investigated low carb to the same extent or anywhere near that? Or did you stop looking after the prof taylor reading?

I didn't say all type 2,s, I specifically said 60%. According to Prof Taylor it even works for 50% of those who have had it 10 years. I said weight loss, not specifically ND. Any diet will do. It's the weight loss that matters. I don't know much about keto, but if it produces weight loss, it will do. As to low carb, people constantly mix up low carb with low carb high fat. If you just lower your carb intake without replacing the carb calories with fat etc calories, then of course that will work perfectly well too. For decades NHS and doctors in other countries have been advising weight loss to reverse T2 &/or to prevent prediabetes turning to full blown T2. There are articles on this all over the net. It is beyond me why people don't want to even try it. If the worst comes to the worst & it doesn't work at least general health will improve. I could not contemplate just rolling over and letting T2 take hold at least not without putting up a big fight to stop it.

 

[zand]

@Tannith you are making judgements about LCHF which are simply not true. Try it. It isn't about the calories at all. Professor Taylor doesn't have all the answers. I am too cross to verbalise this properly.

Why don't we try it? We have! Reducing calories only works temporarily.

 

[zand]

Oh and keto just means going into and staying in ketosis. Ketosis is where you burn fat instead of carbs. So you use up body fat as well as dietary fat for fuel. So of course it is a much more efficient way of losing weight.

 

[lucylocket61]

could not contemplate just rolling over and letting T2 take hold at least not without putting up a big fight to stop it.

This is just plain offensive to all those who have posted, sharing their struggles.

 

[HSSS]

I didn't say all type 2,s, I specifically said 60%. According to Prof Taylor it even works for 50% of those who have had it 10 years. I said weight loss, not specifically ND. Any diet will do. It's the weight loss that matters. I don't know much about keto, but if it produces weight loss, it will do. As to low carb, people constantly mix up low carb with low carb high fat. If you just lower your carb intake without replacing the carb calories with fat etc calories, then of course that will work perfectly well too. For decades NHS and doctors in other countries have been advising weight loss to reverse T2 &/or to prevent prediabetes turning to full blown T2. There are articles on this all over the net. It is beyond me why people don't want to even try it. If the worst comes to the worst & it doesn't work at least general health will improve. I could not contemplate just rolling over and letting T2 take hold at least not without putting up a big fight to stop it.

yes any diet that causes weight loss will have the same effect. So why are you so convinced low carb doesn’t?

Low carb requires high(er) fat because it is not about calories and this is exactly why metabolism and hunger are not an issue. It is not low carb and low calorie which would create even more hunger than low cal alone. They are different and work in different ways.

Yes that’s been the advice, using low calorie for weight loss, and for decades the problem has got worse.

People do try it. And often fail with low calorie. Many in here have also tried, with low carb, and succeeded.

Noone is suggesting you don’t try and should roll over instead and to suggest that we aren’t trying is quite frankly insulting.

You just admitted you don’t know about keto and quite frankly obviously do not understand low carb and have dismissed it despite that lack of knowledge. Those of us trying our very best to help you have lived and researched both methods.

We are worried about you and your experiments but if after all these posts you still don’t see or consider what we say I fear you never will no matter what is said. I hope you as an individual prove us wrong and you achieve remission without damage to your health for your sake, but that doesn’t make our overall points wrong ie that very low calorie and frequent self OGTT is not the only or best way to reach the same goal of health.

Once again I was drawn into this thread and will attempt to make no further comments in the same vein.

 

[Tannith]

yes any diet that causes weight loss will have the same effect. So why are you so convinced low carb doesn’t?

Low carb requires high(er) fat because it is not about calories and this is exactly why metabolism and hunger are not an issue. It is not low carb and low calorie which would create even more hunger than low cal alone. They are different and work in different ways.

Yes that’s been the advice, using low calorie for weight loss, and for decades the problem has got worse.

People do try it. And often fail with low calorie. Many in here have also tried, with low carb, and succeeded.

Noone is suggesting you don’t try and should roll over instead and to suggest that we aren’t trying is quite frankly insulting.

You just admitted you don’t know about keto and quite frankly obviously do not understand low carb and have dismissed it despite that lack of knowledge. Those of us trying our very best to help you have lived and researched both methods.

We are worried about you and your experiments but if after all these posts you still don’t see or consider what we say I fear you never will no matter what is said. I hope you as an individual prove us wrong and you achieve remission without damage to your health for your sake, but that doesn’t make our overall points wrong ie that very low calorie and frequent self OGTT is not the only or best way to reach the same goal of health.
I have not "dismissed" low carb as you suggest. I have simply made a different first choice of diet from you. One that is in no way dangerous and is being tried by 25% of the population at any given time. As for the OGT's the majority of the world's population eats 83 g of carbs per MEAL not per fortnight, with absolutely no ill effects whatsoever. It is ridiculous to call it "dangerous". If my weight loss diet fails, as I have said, I shall try something else which will at least lower my blood sugar if not put my T2 into remission. I would favour metformin next, as it has beneficial effects on cardiovascular health and cancer risk, and no risk of high cholesterol or fibre and micronutrient deficiency which low carb has if not extremely carefully managed. And no restrictions on variety of food you can eat. However I would have to try it first in case I was one of those who suffer gastric side effects after more than a few weeks.

Once again I was drawn into this thread and will attempt to make no further comments in the same vein.

 

[zand]

@Tannith Professor Taylor originally started his experiment to see if weight loss could help save very obese patients having to have gastric bypasses. He hypothesised that weight loss via a vlcal diet might have the same outcomes re T2 reversal.

However I remember reading some time ago that some forms of gastric surgery can reverse T2 from day 1, even before weight loss begins.

How Does Gastric Bypass Surgery Cure Type 2 Diabetes? (healthline.com)

This doesn't support the theory that it's all about fat in/around the pancreas.

 

[bulkbiker]

@Tannith Professor Taylor originally started his experiment to see if weight loss could help save very obese patients having to have gastric bypasses. He hypothesised that weight loss via a vlcal diet might have the same outcomes re T2 reversal.

However I remember reading some time ago that some forms of gastric surgery can reverse T2 from day 1, even before weight loss begins.

How Does Gastric Bypass Surgery Cure Type 2 Diabetes? (healthline.com)

This doesn't support the theory that it's all about fat in/around the pancreas.

And don't forget that a lot of patients are put into ketosis for the weeks leading up to the operation to reduce liver size...wonder why...

 

[Tannith]

Some on here have been telling me that weight loss is "dangerous" . Almost everyone (apart from those with unusual conditions such as eating disorders) would benefit from weight loss, certainly not suffer from it. For most it could be a lot more "dangerous" not to lose weight. Many on here seem to want to deflect me from my diet and stop me doing it long before it has had the chance to work. Perhaps they want me to fail? There will be plenty of time (the rest of my life) to try metformin, and other BG lowering methods like low carb, if I am unable to reverse my T2 with weight loss.
https://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/effects/index.html

• All-causes of death (mortality)
• High blood pressure (Hypertension)
• High LDL cholesterol, low HDL cholesterol, or high levels of triglycerides (Dyslipidemia)
• Type 2 diabetes
• Coronary heart disease
• Stroke
• Gallbladder disease
• Osteoarthritis (a breakdown of cartilage and bone within a joint)
• Sleep apnea and breathing problems
• Many types of cancer external icon [higher risk of 13 types of cancer]
• Low quality of life
• Mental illness such as clinical depression, anxiety, and other mental disorders4,5
• Body pain and difficulty with physical functioning6

For more information about these and other health problems associated with overweight and obesity, visit Clinical Guidelines on the Identification, Evaluation, and Treatment of Overweight and Obesity in Adults pdf icon[PDF-1.25MB]external icon

 

[lucylocket61]

Some on here have been telling me that weight loss is "dangerous" . Almost everyone (apart from those with unusual conditions such as eating disorders) would benefit from weight loss, certainly not suffer from it. For most it could be a lot more "dangerous" not to lose weight. Many on here seem to want to deflect me from my diet and stop me doing it long before it has had the chance to work. Perhaps they want me to fail? There will be plenty of time (the rest of my life) to try metformin, and other BG lowering methods like low carb, if I am unable to reverse my T2 with weight loss.
https://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/effects/index.html

• All-causes of death (mortality)
• High blood pressure (Hypertension)
• High LDL cholesterol, low HDL cholesterol, or high levels of triglycerides (Dyslipidemia)
• Type 2 diabetes
• Coronary heart disease
• Stroke
• Gallbladder disease
• Osteoarthritis (a breakdown of cartilage and bone within a joint)
• Sleep apnea and breathing problems
• Many types of cancer external icon [higher risk of 13 types of cancer]
• Low quality of life
• Mental illness such as clinical depression, anxiety, and other mental disorders4,5
• Body pain and difficulty with physical functioning6

For more information about these and other health problems associated with overweight and obesity, visit Clinical Guidelines on the Identification, Evaluation, and Treatment of Overweight and Obesity in Adults pdf icon[PDF-1.25MB]external icon

I am not going to bother to rebut each and every point. Just go back, and re read posts. I think you have a comprehension difficulty with what we have actually written, as this post is pole opposite to what has been said

 

[Andydragon]

Some on here have been telling me that weight loss is "dangerous" . Almost everyone (apart from those with unusual conditions such as eating disorders) would benefit from weight loss, certainly not suffer from it. For most it could be a lot more "dangerous" not to lose weight. Many on here seem to want to deflect me from my diet and stop me doing it long before it has had the chance to work. Perhaps they want me to fail? There will be plenty of time (the rest of my life) to try metformin, and other BG lowering methods like low carb, if I am unable to reverse my T2 with weight loss.
https://www.cdc.gov/healthyweight/effects/index.html

• All-causes of death (mortality)
• High blood pressure (Hypertension)
• High LDL cholesterol, low HDL cholesterol, or high levels of triglycerides (Dyslipidemia)
• Type 2 diabetes
• Coronary heart disease
• Stroke
• Gallbladder disease
• Osteoarthritis (a breakdown of cartilage and bone within a joint)
• Sleep apnea and breathing problems
• Many types of cancer external icon [higher risk of 13 types of cancer]
• Low quality of life
• Mental illness such as clinical depression, anxiety, and other mental disorders4,5
• Body pain and difficulty with physical functioning6

For more information about these and other health problems associated with overweight and obesity, visit Clinical Guidelines on the Identification, Evaluation, and Treatment of Overweight and Obesity in Adults pdf icon[PDF-1.25MB]external icon

No one appears to be saying that at all
There’s suggestions that the way you are looking to lose weight is not recommended and that there are potential issues by doing it the way you are doing so. You have every right to do with yourself what you desire but talking in the forums makes it public and it is perfectly right for a counter argument to ensure others are aware that there could be consequences

Also small point, but those whom are overweight could benefit, you indicate almost everyone which is clearly untrue as many don’t need to lose weight as are already at healthy levels. Subtle difference but still. I’m sure you didn’t mean to say it that way

 

[kokhongw]

However I remember reading some time ago that some forms of gastric surgery can reverse T2 from day 1, even before weight loss begins.

This was in the opening paragraph of Dr Taylor's 2013 paper...

Reversal of type 2 diabetes to normal metabolic control by either bariatric surgery or hypocaloric diet allows for the time sequence of underlying pathophysiologic mechanisms to be observed. In reverse order, the same mechanisms are likely to determine the events leading to the onset of hyperglycemia and permit insight into the etiology of type 2 diabetes. Within 7 days of instituting a substantial negative calorie balance by either dietary intervention or bariatric surgery, fasting plasma glucose levels can normalize. This rapid change relates to a substantial fall in liver fat content and return of normal hepatic insulin sensitivity.

From the very beginning... his hypothesis is framed in the context of negative calorie balance... although the mechanism for "substantial fall in liver fat content" is actually very well understood by all...

As we all know... a substantial drop in insulin will result in a drop in liver fat content. But having no home insulin monitoring tools, most of us can only guess our insulin levels by blunt proxy measurements, eg waistline, rate of post meal glucose clearance, stability of glucose level.

Perhaps that is why Dr Fung's combination of low carb/IF/Extended fasting has been successful in maintaining a low enough insulin level for his patients to maintain substantial fat loss.

 

[Resurgam]

I do sometimes feel really guilty reading how people are struggling and striving day by day.
For me it is so simple, eat breakfast with no more than 10 gm of carbs, drink coffee with cream then check I have dinner sorted and forget about food for the next 10 hours at least - cook dinner with up to 30 gm of carbs and have another coffee with cream, having had no hunger, indigestion (nor medication induced explosions) and being able to go out to work or on expeditions to folk festivals or to play the music for dancing.
I lost loads of weight without trying - at least 50lb, as I lost hope and stopped weighing myself and feel so much better.
Having always needed to eat low carb, (but there was so much opposition to that) my situation now is just down to me refusing to go along with accepted wisdom about diet.
Having seen stability for some years I am confident that I will be able to maintain it into the future, baring something unforeseen, as it is just no effort at all.

 

[Tophat1900]

You can't help someone who ignores everything posted to assist them. You just can't.

 

[zand]

Some on here have been telling me that weight loss is "dangerous"

You are not overweight anymore, that's why we say that.

 

[zand]

You can't help someone who ignores everything posted to assist them. You just can't.

I agree and like @HSSS I am out of this thread until something that is factually incorrect is posted again.

 

[Tannith]

This week's FBGs average 4.97. Not brilliant. I have decided that because of the rage that my doing OGT tests provokes in other members I shall stop doing them I shall therefore have to carry on dieting until I have lost 15% of my original weight as, in the absence of tests, that is the only way left to tell if you have (probably) got to your Personal Fat Threshold.

 

[Mr_Pot]

This week's FBGs average 4.97. Not brilliant. I have decided that because of the rage that my doing OGT tests provokes in other members I shall stop doing them I shall therefore have to carry on dieting until I have lost 15% of my original weight as, in the absence of tests, that is the only way left to tell if you have (probably) got to your Personal Fat Threshold.

Just to inject a bit of perspective, I am happy with my diabetes control and my weight but I have never seen a FBG under 5.0, maybe you are aiming to low.

 

[Tophat1900]

This week's FBGs average 4.97. Not brilliant. I have decided that because of the rage that my doing OGT tests provokes in other members I shall stop doing them I shall therefore have to carry on dieting until I have lost 15% of my original weight as, in the absence of tests, that is the only way left to tell if you have (probably) got to your Personal Fat Threshold.

Rage over OGT tests? People have advised you to stop damaging yourself this way, NOT raged. So please don't falsely accuse people of something they haven't done. Your limitations on testing are your decision to do or not do, but not the result of other people who have tried to help you. You're responsible for your actions, just as we are all responsible for our own actions.

I'm sure I'm not alone in hoping that things work out for you, but please don't try blaming others for your decisions.