Type 1 Vegan diet changed my insulin needs? Weird!

[Hannah Robyn]

Hey everyone, I've been a type 1 for almost 3 years and for the last year i've had good control. My last 2 a1c's were 52 and 49, which i'm pleased with. My Libre estimates my next one at 45, which will be even better! I enjoy learning about diet and nutrition, it's a hobby of mine, and i absolutely love to cook. so basically i'm health conscious and have fairly tight control.

So, i recently decided to go vegan. As a result, my carb intake increased from about 40% of my diet to about 65% of my diet as I replaced the meat, dairy and eggs with lots of beans, lentils, nuts, seeds and whole grains like quinoa and barley. I also eat lower carb protein like tofu and soy yogurt but not as much because they're pricey. I stay far away from certain fruit, oats and white potatoes because my blood sugar does NOT like them.

Within about 2 weeks of this, i was hypoing DAILY. sometimes multiple times a day, with no change to my insulin ratios, exercise or anything like stress. i mean, it was mad. Eventually i messed with my ratios of insulin to carbs and realised that i was needing about half the insulin for the carbs that i used to. i am now taking about the same insulin i used to for wayyy more carbs?

that's completely the opposite to what i expected, so my question is- is this normal????? I was under the impression that increasing your carb consumption increases your insulin resistance, so i expected that switching to vegan and eating more carbs was going to up my insulin needs massively, which i came to terms with and decided to do it anyway.

I always thought that going lower carb was the best way to get insulin sensitivity back? Should mention that i've not lost any weight- if anything i've gained a bit from the repeated hypos that i treated with vegan sweets lol

i don't know, i'm just so confused, because everyone has been telling me that lowering carbs as much as possible is best for diabetics

 

[In Response]

Some pulses such as chickpeas and lentils and not entirely digested by everyone.
Some of us can eat hummus insulin free without it affecting our blood sugars.
I don't know whether with your adoption of more lentils and the like you are one of the non-carb digesting pulse eaters. If you are counting the carbs in them and not digesting them you will experience some low blood sugars

As for low carb being "best" for people with diabetes, in my experience, matching insulin correctly to the carbs Type 1s digest is what is best regardless how many carbs they are.
Those not treating their diabetes with insulin, the low carb option seems to have merits.

 

[Hannah Robyn]

Some pulses such as chickpeas and lentils and not entirely digested by everyone.
Some of us can eat hummus insulin free without it affecting our blood sugars.
I don't know whether with your adoption of more lentils and the like you are one of the non-carb digesting pulse eaters. If you are counting the carbs in them and not digesting them you will experience some low blood sugars

As for low carb being "best" for people with diabetes, in my experience, matching insulin correctly to the carbs Type 1s digest is what is best regardless how many carbs they are.
Those not treating their diabetes with insulin, the low carb option seems to have merits.

thank you so much! i suppose that for type 2s without injected insulin a lower carb option makes more sense as they don't have a way to compensate for carbs like us type 1s do.

i had no idea that pulses were digested differently by certain people. i always just assumed they were slow release carbs like a lot of whole plant foods, just with a bit more protein. i eat lots of lentils purely because they're very cheap, easy to cook and i find them really satisfying. it wasn't really a conscious choice for my blood sugar, just a way to get easy vegan protein in that tastes good

do you know how i find out if i'm a non-carb digesting pulse eater? if i am and it means i can eat lentils and chickpeas forever i'll be very happy lol

 

[Beating-My-Betes]

I'm just so confused, because everyone has been telling me that lowering carbs as much as possible is best for diabetics

No need to be confused. Just embrace it! You aren't the only one who is increasing their insulin sensitivity by upping their carb intake. I've attached a PDF to this post, with a ton of links to similar success/progress stories, from those with type I or II:

I stay far away from certain fruit, oats and white potatoes because my blood sugar does NOT like them.

Not making any certain claims, but I wouldn't be surprised if in due course you are much more able to deal with these 'problem' foods.
Until then, have you tried playing around with different meal times e.g perhaps trying oatmeal as an evening meal, or potatoes for breakfast. If you do experiment, start with very small quantities.

Another idea for the potatoes is to enhance the resistant starch by cooking, cooling and then re-heating. Leaving them in the fridge till the next day might make them easier for you.

So, i recently decided to go vegan.

Nice! Not at all qualified to help with your diabetes, but I could steer you to resources that might help. But if you have any general vegan-related questions, shoot me a 'pm'.

 

[Mbaker]

There are a small amount of humans who can increase carbs and get low blood sugars, a guess at between 12 and 30% (based on figures of metabolic health cited by Dr Paul Mason for Australians and a study of the USA population) most of the Type 2's on this site who try higher carb fail with this method, including me; and I would say based on the Type 1's who try the Bernstein protocol as witnessed by the Type 1 Grit results with an average of a 5.7 A1c also go the route you previously did. The links provided in a separate post are just not routinely seen on this site, the biggest in the world, diet doctor and generally online elsewhere or by the poster.

Not sure how much tracking you do, but it would be interesting to see if your inflammatory markers are better / worse now, especially trigs and hdl readings.

The "Randle" cycle explains why results can be obtained with higher carb and lower carb. Your tests changed several variables which gets a result but doesn't dictate if it was meat, eggs or diary keeping your insulin requirements higher; I have read that for some diary could contribute to IR.

Edited 20% to 12%

 

[Hannah Robyn]

No need to be confused. Just embrace it! You aren't the only one who is increasing their insulin sensitivity by upping their carb intake. I've attached a PDF to this post, with a ton of links to similar success/progress stories, from those with type I or II:



Not making any certain claims, but I wouldn't be surprised if in due course you are much more able to deal with these 'problem' foods.
Until then, have you tried playing around with different meal times e.g perhaps trying oatmeal as an evening meal, or potatoes for breakfast. If you do experiment, start with very small quantities.

Another idea for the potatoes is to enhance the resistant starch by cooking, cooling and then re-heating. Leaving them in the fridge till the next day might make them easier for you.



Nice! Not at all qualified to help with your diabetes, but I could steer you to resources that might help. But if you have any general vegan-related questions, shoot me a 'pm'.

oh my god THIS EXPLAINS SO MUCH. thank you!!!

i genuinely had no idea that high carb plant based was even a thing that was common for diabetics to do! I just got into it from the ethical vegan side of it and from a money saving side, rather than a health perspective.

I'm not sure about oats, to be honest. I have too many war stories of spiking up to 20+ after eating even a small portion of oats. they go right through me. thanks for the potato tip though! i eat a lot of brown pasta and i do a similar thing- cook, then cool, then reheat. It absolutely stops the high spike. Didn't know it worked on potatoes too, i'll have to try it out! Also, eating lentils with pasta (eg lentil bolognase) seems to offset the spike too. it's all trial and error haha

right now i'm going to enjoy my healthy carbs even more!!! (with a calculated pre bolus, of course lol)

 

[In Response]

do you know how i find out if i'm a non-carb digesting pulse eater? if i am and it means i can eat lentils and chickpeas forever i'll be very happy lol

I think the only way to find out is the good ole (T2) way of testing - test, eat and test again without using insulin and see what happens.

 

[Hannah Robyn]

There are a small amount of humans who can increase carbs and get low blood sugars, a guess at between 20 and 30% (based on figures of metabolic health cited by Dr Paul Mason for Australians and a study of the USA population) most of the Type 2's on this site who try higher carb fail with this method, including me; and I would say based on the Type 1's who try the Bernstein protocol as witnessed by the Type 1 Grit results with an average of a 5.7 A1c also go the route you previously did. The links provided in a separate post are just not routinely seen on this site, the biggest in the world, diet doctor and generally online elsewhere or by the poster.

Not sure how much tracking you do, but it would be interesting to see if your inflammatory markers are better / worse now, especially trigs and hdl readings.

The "Randle" cycle explains why results can be obtained with higher carb and lower carb. Your tests changed several variables which gets a result but doesn't dictate if it was meat, eggs or diary keeping your insulin requirements higher; I have read that for some diary could contribute to IR.

I may be wrong, but don't vegans tend to have lower inflammatory markers in general? My cholesterol has always been very good, not surprising as I've always been a big fan of fruit and veg and legumes even before going vegan. but at my next blood test i'll have a look at my cholesterol again and see if there's an impact. i should add that i avoid refined carbs and added sugars too even though they're vegan (except for hypo treatments) and i don't go heavy on the fruit so i doubt my triglycerides will be high

thank you so much for the information though!! it makes a lot of sense. I guess i might be one of those 20-30% of people that can manage it. i'm also aware of Dr Bernstein's work and i think he's doing a brilliant job. so many people have been helped by him and his work!! there will be so many people who avoid nasty diabetic complications thanks to him.

i suppose it's wrong to recommend any specific way of eating to any type 1 or 2. we're all different in the end after all!

as for the dairy issue- my main health concern comes from the established link between casein in milk and the development of type 1 diabetes. there's no way we should be giving dairy to kids who are at risk from type 1

 

[Mbaker]

I may be wrong, but don't vegans tend to have lower inflammatory markers in general? My cholesterol has always been very good, not surprising as I've always been a big fan of fruit and veg and legumes even before going vegan. but at my next blood test i'll have a look at my cholesterol again and see if there's an impact. i should add that i avoid refined carbs and added sugars too even though they're vegan (except for hypo treatments) and i don't go heavy on the fruit so i doubt my triglycerides will be high

thank you so much for the information though!! it makes a lot of sense. I guess i might be one of those 20-30% of people that can manage it. i'm also aware of Dr Bernstein's work and i think he's doing a brilliant job. so many people have been helped by him and his work!! there will be so many people who avoid nasty diabetic complications thanks to him.

i suppose it's wrong to recommend any specific way of eating to any type 1 or 2. we're all different in the end after all!

as for the dairy issue- my main health concern comes from the established link between casein in milk and the development of type 1 diabetes. there's no way we should be giving dairy to kids who are at risk from type 1

Your response is phenomenal as it is objective. There is a lot to unpack in this answer and I don't want to derail so will do bullet points to keep it short:

1. Vegans tend to have lower LDL, Lower HDL and higher Triglycerides
   1. They tend to believe LDL is causal to heart disease
   2. They believe animal fat is artery clogging
2. Standard diets tend to be all over the place with readings for cholesterol
3. Lower Carb dieters tend to have higher LDL (in around 33%), Higher HDL and lower Triglycerides
   1. Low Carb advocates believe damaged LDL is part of the heart disease equation
   2. That small dense LDL is "bad" and "large" LDL particles are safe (which low carb tends to do)
   3. That vegetable (seed) oils, sugar / carbs damage LDL
4. The open facts are that either the same amount of people die with either what is deemed "normal" or "low" cholesterol as those with what is deemed as "high" or slightly more die in the normal range (high circulating insulin and weight are better correlated to heart disease). So for cholesterol a person would have to decide what side they have faith in, or better still get a CAC scan.
5. For other inflammatory markers prominent Vegans tend to not post results, whereas in low carbers on this site have posted Triglycerides of less the 1 (excellent, which is fat in the blood), HDL around 2 (excellent, lower HDL is more correlated to CVD than LDL), fasting insulin of around 5 (excellent, for Type 2's), HOMA-IR of circa 1(excellent, a proxy measure for Insulin Resistance), HS-CRP of less than 1(excellent, a major inflammatory marker).
6. Vegans who "do it right" are measured against populations on the standard diet, which is what is reported. Against Atkins and other Low Carb diets the "win" goes (I have seen a short term study where the Vegan diet faired better on at least one marker where less calories with consumed).

The best arbitrator for me in the CGM, as this does not curry favour or bias.

 

[Beating-My-Betes]

i genuinely had no idea that high carb plant based was even a thing that was common for diabetics to do!

I wouldn't say it's common. I reckon it would become more so, were it not for most of the doctors who advise this protocol taking such a hard-line on the total cessation of animal products. It's an immediate limiting factor

Also, eating lentils with pasta (eg lentil bolognase) seems to offset the spike too. it's all trial and error haha

Legumes have been reported to do so, not just in the same meal, but as a so-called second-meal effect (Apparently control spikes in the following meals. I cannot confirm or deny).

right now i'm going to enjoy my healthy carbs even more!!

YUM!

 

[Beating-My-Betes]

Speaking of potatoes, this dropped onto my subs list today. Not talking "Healed" quite yet, but she certainly seems to be on her way:

 

[Hannah Robyn]

Your response is phenomenal as it is objective. There is a lot to unpack in this answer and I don't want to derail so will do bullet points to keep it short:

1. Vegans tend to have lower LDL, Lower HDL and higher Triglycerides
   1. They tend to believe LDL is causal to heart disease
   2. They believe animal fat is artery clogging
2. Standard diets tend to be all over the place with readings for cholesterol
3. Lower Carb dieters tend to have higher LDL (in around 33%), Higher HDL and lower Triglycerides
   1. Low Carb advocates believe damaged LDL is part of the heart disease equation
   2. That small dense LDL is "bad" and "large" LDL particles are safe (which low carb tends to do)
   3. That vegetable (seed) oils, sugar / carbs damage LDL
4. The open facts are that either the same amount of people die with either what is deemed "normal" or "low" cholesterol as those with what is deemed as "high" or slightly more die in the normal range (high circulating insulin and weight are better correlated to heart disease). So for cholesterol a person would have to decide what side they have faith in, or better still get a CAC scan.
5. For other inflammatory markers prominent Vegans tend to not post results, whereas in low carbers on this site have posted Triglycerides of less the 1 (excellent, which is fat in the blood), HDL around 2 (excellent, lower HDL is more correlated to CVD than LDL), fasting insulin of around 5 (excellent, for Type 2's), HOMA-IR of circa 1(excellent, a proxy measure for Insulin Resistance), HS-CRP of less than 1(excellent, a major inflammatory marker).
6. Vegans who "do it right" are measured against populations on the standard diet, which is what is reported. Against Atkins and other Low Carb diets the "win" goes (I have seen a short term study where the Vegan diet faired better on at least one marker where less calories with consumed).

The best arbitrator for me in the CGM, as this does not curry favour or bias.

I'm sorry, I admit i'm struggling to understand a lot of your answer. i'm not that well versed in the online nutrition community. When you say 'your response is phenomenal as it is objective' is that a positive thing? (if it's not, that's fine! i'm still learning as I go). Also, can you clarify what you mean about risk associated with cholesterol in the normal category etc?

From every angle, everyone seems to be saying something different! The low carbers have lots of good science and anecdotes behind them, and the blood results to prove it, yet for every low carber you can find another vegan can produce studies about the terrible health impact of meat and dairy and THEY also have the blood results to prove it. I believe you though, and I believe there can be health benefits on both sides. From studies I've read on on dieting and type 2 diabetes, it seems that any diet (whether standard, plant based, keto or otherwise) that is successful in lowering body weight can lead to good health outcomes and lowered A1C. Vegans in America tend to average a normal BMI, which is, from my understanding, the major factor for general positive health outcomes. Yet anyone who is health conscious, eg. a low carber, also tends to average a normal BMI! so it's very confusing to pick apart!

However the bottom line is that I cannot see any problem with a whole foods, minimally processed diet- whether that's low or high carb, whether that's meat or vegan. It seems to be that the refined foods are the problem, and something that everyone seems to agree with! So, personally I would choose to follow the consensus of government recommendations worldwide and avoid dietary cholesterol, saturated fat, added sugars and refined carbohydrates whilst emphasising vegetables, fruits, whole grains and lower fat protein (for me, that would be legumes and tofu, for non vegans it would be chicken and fish and yogurt etc)

Are you getting my point? Sorry, I'm aware you're more well informed than me, please correct me if i'm wrong!!

 

[bulkbiker]

It seems to be that the refined foods are the problem, and something that everyone seems to agree with! So, personally I would choose to follow the consensus of government recommendations worldwide and avoid dietary cholesterol, saturated fat, added sugars and refined carbohydrates whilst emphasising vegetables, fruits, whole grains and lower fat protein (for me, that would be legumes and tofu, for non vegans it would be chicken and fish and yogurt etc)

Depends
For T2's there have been studies of low fat vegan against Standard diet which haven't come out so well for the T2's

Slight improvement in initial HbA1c then worsens over time.

So for them I'd say that low carb is way more effective and sustainable.

For T1's it might be different.

Avoiding processed food will always be good that's a given but for as for worrying about cholesterol and saturated fat curent thinking is that its fine for almost everyone.

Don't forget that the liver regulates cholesterol and if it wants more it makes it if we don't eat it (also of course without it we'd all be dead).
In more recent studies saturated fat has been shown to be neutral for health at worst and maybe protective against some conditions. So the avoidance of animal foods is relatively pointless health wise.

 

[Hannah Robyn]

Depends
For T2's there have been studies of low fat vegan against Standard diet which haven't come out so well for the T2's
View attachment 48911

Slight improvement in initial HbA1c then worsens over time.

So for them I'd say that low carb is way more effective and sustainable.

For T1's it might be different.

Avoiding processed food will always be good that's a given but for as for worrying about cholesterol and saturated fat curent thinking is that its fine for almost everyone.

Don't forget that the liver regulates cholesterol and if it wants more it makes it if we don't eat it (also of course without it we'd all be dead).
In more recent studies saturated fat has been shown to be neutral for health at worst and maybe protective against some conditions. So the avoidance of animal foods is relatively pointless health wise.

sorry, but official recommendations worldwide seem to be that saturated fat is actually harmful and that we should reduce our intake of it. saying that it is 'fine' seems irresponsible to me

 

[Geordie_P]

sorry, but official recommendations worldwide seem to be that saturated fat is actually harmful and that we should reduce our intake of it. saying that it is 'fine' seems irresponsible to me

It may seem irresponsible to you, but advising people to load up on carbs seems irresponsible to me, so go figure. I can say that without injecting insulin as an antidote to skyrocketing blood-levels caused by carbs many of us would be in serious trouble with your 'healthy' carbs, so perhaps this is a insulin dependent vs non-insulin dependent issue and we should all probably agree to disagree. If I'm appearing contentious, forgive me- it's just that your view works with insulin: those of us who don't inject insulin would have a very different, very damaging experience if we were to sacrifice 'harmful' saturated fat for vegan carbs.

 

[bulkbiker]

sorry, but official recommendations worldwide seem to be that saturated fat is actually harmful and that we should reduce our intake of it. saying that it is 'fine' seems irresponsible to me

"Official recommendations" worldwide can often be complete nonsense as many of us here can attest to.. take a look at the PURE study if you are really interested.

20 minutes well spent.

 

[Tophat1900]

"Official recommendations" worldwide can often be complete nonsense as many of us here can attest to.. take a look at the PURE study if you are really interested.
.

Agreed, official government guidelines and advice are nonsense. You only have to look at the current state of public health and the continued worsening of it to see that. Eat low fat, eat lots of carbs. Use the fear tool of eating saturated fat will kill you nonsense and various other so called expert pieces of advice that should never of seen the light of day. The food companies producing all this rubbish and the pharmaceutical companies sure aren't complaining.

 

[Brunneria]

Hi All,

Please bear in mind that this thread is not about low carb and meat eating.
It is about how @Hannah Robyn 's insulin requirements have changed after her change in diet.

I am about to delete some off topic posts, and any further such posts will also be deleted.

 

[ert]

Hey everyone, I've been a type 1 for almost 3 years and for the last year i've had good control. My last 2 a1c's were 52 and 49, which i'm pleased with. My Libre estimates my next one at 45, which will be even better! I enjoy learning about diet and nutrition, it's a hobby of mine, and i absolutely love to cook. so basically i'm health conscious and have fairly tight control.

So, i recently decided to go vegan. As a result, my carb intake increased from about 40% of my diet to about 65% of my diet as I replaced the meat, dairy and eggs with lots of beans, lentils, nuts, seeds and whole grains like quinoa and barley. I also eat lower carb protein like tofu and soy yogurt but not as much because they're pricey. I stay far away from certain fruit, oats and white potatoes because my blood sugar does NOT like them.

Within about 2 weeks of this, i was hypoing DAILY. sometimes multiple times a day, with no change to my insulin ratios, exercise or anything like stress. i mean, it was mad. Eventually i messed with my ratios of insulin to carbs and realised that i was needing about half the insulin for the carbs that i used to. i am now taking about the same insulin i used to for wayyy more carbs?

that's completely the opposite to what i expected, so my question is- is this normal????? I was under the impression that increasing your carb consumption increases your insulin resistance, so i expected that switching to vegan and eating more carbs was going to up my insulin needs massively, which i came to terms with and decided to do it anyway.

I always thought that going lower carb was the best way to get insulin sensitivity back? Should mention that i've not lost any weight- if anything i've gained a bit from the repeated hypos that i treated with vegan sweets lol

i don't know, i'm just so confused, because everyone has been telling me that lowering carbs as much as possible is best for diabetics

As you are injecting insulin it's great that you get to eat as you choose. I am very insulin sensitive and only need a very low dose of basal as I follow Bernstein. For me humous and lentils spike my blood sugars as they are high in carbohydrates, so as much as I love them avoid them. My blood sugars are flatter if I eat animal protein and I need smaller amounts of short-acting insulin. My Hba1c is in the normal range at 34.

 

[Beating-My-Betes]

your view works with insulin: those of us who don't inject insulin would have a very different, very damaging experience

Firstly, and in case you missed it, I attached a set of success and in-progress stories to an earlier post. Within those pages are a host of both insulin and non-insulin-dependent diabetics, improving their numbers on large amounts of healthy carbs.

Secondly, I don't really understand your dismissal of the data from those with type I. Surely, the best chance of understanding he interaction between carb intake and insulin would be gained via studying those whose lives literally depend on getting that equation right. So when someone presents their experience that increasing carbs leads to a lessening of insulin needs, or increased sensitivity with the same amount of insulin, I don't understand why that isn't sparking curiosity. And in a community that rightfully places necessary importance on anecdotes, why are anecdotes that present contrary information so easily dismissed?