Tannith's views on reversing T2

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Tannith

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This is Diabetes UK (DUK i.e. the other lot) who funded the Newcastle Diet Paper and the research banging their own drum. They are postulating the cardiovascular improvement as a "possibility", i.e. not proven. It is assuming that the improvement of HDL from 1.1 to 1.3 mmol/l will do that magic, but this improvement is not that spectacular.

As has been pointed out there was only a 41% remission success, and it does not mention the regression that occurred in the 2nd year that followed the end of the trial. So, as mentioned in other posts here, it is only a partial success. I note the date it was published was 21/4/ 2021, i.e. today. I wonder why? This article seems to have no new data to present.
"46% of the intervention group had non-diabetic HbA1c off all antihyperglycaemic agents. The underlying changes in intra-organ fat remained constant in those achieving remission (Fig (Fig3).3). Remission primarily depended upon degree of weight loss, with achievement increasing steadily from (7%) with only 0–5 kg weight loss to 86% who lost 15 kg or more." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/
As to those who regressed in 2nd year after the end of the trial, that was hardly surprising as they HAD PUT THE WEIGHT BACK ON, thus undoing all their good work and going back above their Personal Fat Thresholds. The diet had worked, but the dieters themselves failed.
 

bulkbiker

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"46% of the intervention group had non-diabetic HbA1c off all antihyperglycaemic agents. The underlying changes in intra-organ fat remained constant in those achieving remission (Fig (Fig3).3). Remission primarily depended upon degree of weight loss, with achievement increasing steadily from (7%) with only 0–5 kg weight loss to 86% who lost 15 kg or more." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6399621/
As to those who regressed in 2nd year after the end of the trial, that was hardly surprising as they HAD PUT THE WEIGHT BACK ON, thus undoing all their good work and going back above their Personal Fat Thresholds. The diet had worked, but the dieters themselves failed.

Possibly because as many of us have told you .. crash dieting rarely (if ever) leads to sustainable weight loss...

Head meet brick wall...
 

Ronancastled

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@Tannith I see you've really put all your faith in the Taylor PFT hypothesis and for some it does hold up.
I hope you're one of the lucky ones.

You do realise you may have already passed your PFT, might of happened very early after you commenced your ND.
For me I only had to shift a stone for my FBG to normalise, it took 3 weeks.
For my postpriandials to normalise well enough to pass an OGTT took 14 months.
For my first phase insulin response to kick back in took 18 months.
Also, none of this was a slow linear improvement, I'd go months at the same glucose level then boom, everything would drop another 0.5mmol/L without me doing anything special bar low carbing & waiting.
 
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HSSS

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It always was. Something the majority of the forum seems to have forgotten
We don’t necessarily reply just for the benefit of the person we reply to. Often there are other readers who are new to the entire subject who are unaware of all sides of an argument and who could come away with a one sided view if points are not discussed/rebutted/explored. Particularly if the evidence is being seen in the round. It not being ONE persons choice is often the point being missed.
 
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Tannith

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@Tannith I see you've really put all your faith in the Taylor PFT hypothesis and for some it does hold up.
I hope you're one of the lucky ones.

You do realise you may have already passed your PFT, might of happened very early after you commenced your ND.
For me I only had to shift a stone for my FBG to normalise, it took 3 weeks.
For my postpriandials to normalise well enough to pass an OGTT took 14 months.
For my first phase insulin response to kick back in took 18 months.
Also, none of this was a slow linear improvement, I'd go months at the same glucose level then boom, everything would drop another 0.5mmol/L without me doing anything special bar low carbing & waiting.
Thank you SO much Ronancastled, that's SO encouraging!
 
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Tannith

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We don’t necessarily reply just for the benefit of the person we reply to. Often there are other readers who are new to the entire subject who are unaware of all sides of an argument and who could come away with a one sided view if points are not discussed/rebutted/explored. Particularly if the evidence is being seen in the round. It not being ONE persons choice is often the point being missed.
There are hundreds if not thousands of descriptions of people's experiences of Low Carb on here. But hardly any accounts of how people fared on low calorie diets similar to the Newcastle Diet. I found it difficult to find any recent or current ones when I first started mine. Someone else trying it might find support and encouragement in hearing the ups and downs of mine. And if I eventually succeed, they might, hopefully, put up with the downs when their OGTs are still poor because of the final prospect of reversing their T2 for good. A prize well worth working for!
 

Lamont D

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@Tannith.

I have been warily watching the thread, and I have come to the conclusion that thank God, you haven't got the conditions that I have.

Because the only way I can be healthy is to avoid the foods that I am intolerant to.
Regardless of the science, the only treatment is to avoid food containing carbs and sugars, even vegetable oils, Palm oil and so on effect my blood levels.

Probably every science paper published on dietary intake, is biased on how the money is found to fund the project.
So if the agenda is vegan, then the vegan diet is shown to be the best.
If it's the NHS, then the the eat well diet is postulated.

What is really happening is how we as a species we find the cheapest option to feed everyone. It is also propaganda to maximise profit.

Through my experience over the last two decades, no one is right, if you put it as an individual condition rather than plunking everyone as type one or type two, it is too broad and doesn't cover the fact that everyone has different tastes, ethnicity, purchasing power, availability of food. Seasonal food and how your body copes with it over time. Because I had a rare condition, everything I did shortly after diagnosis was designed by me to help with finding a way for me to be healthy. Nothing else.
It is my body, my health and its only me that can do it. I have found a balanced diet for me. You require a different balance of food, because your gut, your hormonal response, and how much insulin you have circulating. The bacteria in your gut is a completely different biome. Your homeostasis will be completely different.
I know from my wife, who has T2, is different in so many ways, to how I adjusted my diet to suit me.
If you look at the symptoms of T2, they are so individual. Some have certain symptoms, some never do.
The bottom line and its quite wide latitude, is that you have to find a balanced diet, that works for you. You need to understand that this diet is really healthy for you in the long term, there is no magic formula to ever be rid of the tendency to high blood sugar levels. You can only manage the condition. And control your blood sugar levels.

How you approach a lower carb diet, and depending on wether you require good fats and more good protein, in other words fresh food. Then you can say which ever dietary changes you have made has been attainable.

If you keep reverting to science, it will probably let you down, like it did for me. Until I found that a food diary with all my testing and experimentation of how food affected my body, that I learned a great deal of understanding of what I needed to do.

In my experience, fresh food is really good, manufactured foods are bad, the modern nutritional diet, is not healthy FOR ME!
But reducing starchy vegetables, carbs, and sugary foods, reducing your plate size and increasing by stages, your exercise. Over the next few months will help control and should lower your Hba1c levels. It will also reduce insulin resistance and your spikes, will not be as bad.
Fasting will help if you can. Having a small window for food at the time most convenient for your lifestyle.

My experience with all kinds of advice about diet have always not work, especially the Atkins and the eat well plate. Crash dieting is risky and will harm your health.
My experience over two decades of battling with diet and finally finding something that actually works, and helps keep my health really good and the likelihood that I will live a lot longer cos I'm fit and healthy. Instead of, before diagnosis, I have been told that, I would not be here.
Listen to your body and not the science.
You are here for advice and the only advice that will work is your diet and how your body copes.
If you get it right, fabulous, if you get it wrong............

Keep safe
 

Oldvatr

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There are hundreds if not thousands of descriptions of people's experiences of Low Carb on here. But hardly any accounts of how people fared on low calorie diets similar to the Newcastle Diet. I found it difficult to find any recent or current ones when I first started mine. Someone else trying it might find support and encouragement in hearing the ups and downs of mine. And if I eventually succeed, they might, hopefully, put up with the downs when their OGTs are still poor because of the final prospect of reversing their T2 for good. A prize well worth working for!
Seen this one?
https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/category/low-calorie-diets.24/
 

HSSS

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There are hundreds if not thousands of descriptions of people's experiences of Low Carb on here. But hardly any accounts of how people fared on low calorie diets similar to the Newcastle Diet. I found it difficult to find any recent or current ones when I first started mine. Someone else trying it might find support and encouragement in hearing the ups and downs of mine. And if I eventually succeed, they might, hopefully, put up with the downs when their OGTs are still poor because of the final prospect of reversing their T2 for good. A prize well worth working for!
I actually agree, probably much to your surprise. There’s a lot to be said for presenting and discussing all the options out there so people can make their own decisions based on the widest experiences and evidence possible. I can see that there is benefit to some using this method. I’ve never denied that, I just don’t agree with some of your assumptions based on it.
 

Lamont D

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There are hundreds if not thousands of descriptions of people's experiences of Low Carb on here. But hardly any accounts of how people fared on low calorie diets similar to the Newcastle Diet. I found it difficult to find any recent or current ones when I first started mine. Someone else trying it might find support and encouragement in hearing the ups and downs of mine. And if I eventually succeed, they might, hopefully, put up with the downs when their OGTs are still poor because of the final prospect of reversing their T2 for good. A prize well worth working for!

I don't understand the necessity to keep references to oral glucose tolerance test.
This is a diagnostic test, not an actual diagnosis for T2.
A two hour OGTT, can only give you certain aspects of how you cope with 75g of glucose solution. This is used for assessing your response, which gives the doctor an idea how much you spike, how long and if you have insulin resistance. This test does not measure diabetes. The specialist will get more information from a blood panel.
They use the Hba1c test. It is a test that has been standardised to confirm a patient's levels of blood glucose over mainly a short to an overview of a period. At some two hours OGTT they don't track blood sugar levels only prior and after the test.

I have experienced quite a few extended oral glucose tolerance tests. This is because of first, to check spikes, and then to see if I go hypo. This was used to eliminate other conditions. Most endocrine tests, are not to diagnose but to eliminate what it isn't.
All my blood panel tests were checked in a private laboratory, my blood glucose levels were checked pre test and every half hour and after the test and because I did go hypo, the readings continued until I was allowed to go home.

I have had further eOGTTs because I took part in a trial for a drug, that might help with my insulin response and my condition. A paper was published with the results.

Stay safe
 
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Pipp

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There are hundreds if not thousands of descriptions of people's experiences of Low Carb on here. But hardly any accounts of how people fared on low calorie diets similar to the Newcastle Diet. I found it difficult to find any recent or current ones when I first started mine. Someone else trying it might find support and encouragement in hearing the ups and downs of mine. And if I eventually succeed, they might, hopefully, put up with the downs when their OGTs are still poor because of the final prospect of reversing their T2 for good. A prize well worth working for!
My own account of very low calorie dieting is out there.
I embarked on it ten years ago, in desperation, because I just could not lose weight, had been diagnosed T2 6 years previously, and done everything, I mean stuck rigidly to the advice I had been given by NHS, including the specialist weight management team. That team was made up of doctors, physiotherapists, dietitians, psychologists. I took part in hydrotherapy sessions, gym exercise sessions, nutrition classes, behavioural therapy, and followed the advice rigidly. Over 2 years no improvement in HbA1c, which did in fact increase. No weight loss,other than a couple of pounds. I was being told that the only solution available to me was bariatric surgery. Although I don’t decry that option for those who choose that route, to me it felt like an assault, and emphasised I was not in control of my own health. At this time I read reports of the Newcastle studies, and insisted I wanted to try that route. It was the hypothesis in those early days of the Newcastle research that the restricted diet that is undertaken post bariatric surgery could be as successful in ‘reversing’ T2 as the surgical route, but without the surgery that attracted my attention. To me it was a lifeline. I had not, then,heard of low carbing. The only other options I was aware of were bariatric surgery, or the low fat ‘healthy’ carbs with every meal regime that was being touted by the multi-disciplinary team. Due to my desperation, I now understand that I was ‘blinkered’, in that I did not diligently research further than the ND. In mitigation that was a very stressful time in my life, and I was quite ill, too, with several other health problems.

The Taylor personal fat threshold theory, does seem to fit what happened to me. Within days of starting the Very Low Calorie Diet, my blood glucose levels returned to non-diabetes levels, and stayed there, several years. Suggests support for the theory that the visceral fat is first to be lost. I lost a great deal of weight within a few months, but it was those first few days that were most significant for me. The weight management team, to my satisfaction, could hardly believe that I had succeeded without their help. A year or two later I needed abdominal surgeries for a different condition. post surgery I had a conversation with the surgeon. He told me that although I still had some considerable subcutaneous fat, he had found very little visceral fat.

Of course, following this I was euphoric. I had achieved what the (current at that time) knowledge had said was impossible. After all I was supposed to have the chronic, incurable, progressive T2! I cringe now when I think how evangelical I became about how easy it was. Don’t get me wrong, unlike some, I do see a value in Very LowCalorie Diets , with the caveat that it has limitations, and is not the appropriate method for everyone.; it is not a ‘one off cure’; it has been over-hyped in the media; the definition of ‘reversal’, is a loose one, as it defines HbA1c 48, (usually accepted as highest level prediabetic) as reversal. Despite this, for some people with a lot of weight to lose, and like me had struggled, it can offer a lifeline. Though they need to know and understand that the calorie restriction phase is just a very small timescale in the rest of life management that has to follow.

What I do have great concern about, @Tannith, is that from reading your posts, and the responses, you are taking a perfectionist approach, and, have gone to extremes with an obsession about needing to have HbA1c of less than 39, and really low fasting levels. Also, the obsession with frequent OGT tests. The amount of glucose, and the need to consume higher levels of carbs for the few days before could cause erratic increase in BG levels, and the damage on a micro vascular level that you are trying to avoid. Also, I am concerned about your emotional health, too. It appears you have been triggered by a comment from a member, regarding your HbA1c. One member, offering an opinion, that seems to have been misconstrued. Yet lots more members are offering other opinions, supported by research papers, and personal experience, that you choose to ignore. I don’t understand.

@Tannith, please don’t feel you are being ‘got at’. I do admire your tenacity, and determination to follow your chosen path, however misguided many think that is. I also see there are some metits to ND methodology, in the right circumstances. Another big concern I do have is that you are promoting what you suggest are Professor Taylor’s methods, when what you are doing is not that at all. Very misleading, and confusing for people new to T 2 and looking for ways to improve their health.

I am not sure of your age, Tannith, and background, but perhaps as a retired , contented with my lot, type of gal it is easier for me to accept that good enough is good enough. I know that I will die one day. Meantime,I want to do some living, so if I can keep HbA1c on an even keel, (if it stays under 45 that will do, though prefer under 42) and don’t see too high numbers fasting, or post prandial, or have any retinopathy or neuropathy complications, then life is sweet, and there is no need to strive for the perfection that is never going to be attainable. I really wish the same for you.
 

Oldvatr

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Thank you @Pipp that is a good post that really says it all. I am a Low Carber myself, but I am happy to recommend the ND diet if it suits the situation. I have done this on occasions, but I feel it is necessary to emphasise that it is best as a short sharp shock a bit like pressing the reset button on the computer and not advised as a lifestyle intervention like LCHF is. I remember your evangelical phase.......
 

Pipp

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Thank you @Pipp that is a good post that really says it all. I am a Low Carber myself, but I am happy to recommend the ND diet if it suits the situation. I have done this on occasions, but I feel it is necessary to emphasise that it is best as a short sharp shock a bit like pressing the reset button on the computer and not advised as a lifestyle intervention like LCHF is. I remember your evangelical phase.......
Oh dear. I was hoping people would have forgotten. :D
One thing I do seem to seem to have learnt is that it is best to keep an open mind. Sharing knowledge and the experience of others, and then applying that knowledge to ones own individual circumstances, then sharing it back can only increase our understanding. True learning is never static.
 
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Oldvatr

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Oh dear. I was hoping people would have forgotten. :D
One thing I do seem to seem to have learnt is that it is best to keep an open mind. Sharing knowledge and the experience of others, and then applying that knowledge to ones own individual circumstances, then sharing it back can only increase our understanding. True learning is never static.
You have come out of the experience with a well-balabnced viewpoint on what happened on your journey, and I learned things from it too. It is never wasted.
 

Pipp

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I have done this on occasions, but I feel it is necessary to emphasise that it is best as a short sharp shock a bit like pressing the reset button on the computer and not advised as a lifestyle intervention like LCHF is.....

That analogy sums it up perfectly for me.
Newcastle diet is most certainly not intended to be a lifelong regime. thank you.
 

Tannith

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My own account of very low calorie dieting is out there.
I embarked on it ten years ago, in desperation, because I just could not lose weight, had been diagnosed T2 6 years previously, and done everything, I mean stuck rigidly to the advice I had been given by NHS, including the specialist weight management team. That team was made up of doctors, physiotherapists, dietitians, psychologists. I took part in hydrotherapy sessions, gym exercise sessions, nutrition classes, behavioural therapy, and followed the advice rigidly. Over 2 years no improvement in HbA1c, which did in fact increase. No weight loss,other than a couple of pounds. I was being told that the only solution available to me was bariatric surgery. Although I don’t decry that option for those who choose that route, to me it felt like an assault, and emphasised I was not in control of my own health. At this time I read reports of the Newcastle studies, and insisted I wanted to try that route. It was the hypothesis in those early days of the Newcastle research that the restricted diet that is undertaken post bariatric surgery could be as successful in ‘reversing’ T2 as the surgical route, but without the surgery that attracted my attention. To me it was a lifeline. I had not, then,heard of low carbing. The only other options I was aware of were bariatric surgery, or the low fat ‘healthy’ carbs with every meal regime that was being touted by the multi-disciplinary team. Due to my desperation, I now understand that I was ‘blinkered’, in that I did not diligently research further than the ND. In mitigation that was a very stressful time in my life, and I was quite ill, too, with several other health problems.

The Taylor personal fat threshold theory, does seem to fit what happened to me. Within days of starting the Very Low Calorie Diet, my blood glucose levels returned to non-diabetes levels, and stayed there, several years. Suggests support for the theory that the visceral fat is first to be lost. I lost a great deal of weight within a few months, but it was those first few days that were most significant for me. The weight management team, to my satisfaction, could hardly believe that I had succeeded without their help. A year or two later I needed abdominal surgeries for a different condition. post surgery I had a conversation with the surgeon. He told me that although I still had some considerable subcutaneous fat, he had found very little visceral fat.

Of course, following this I was euphoric. I had achieved what the (current at that time) knowledge had said was impossible. After all I was supposed to have the chronic, incurable, progressive T2! I cringe now when I think how evangelical I became about how easy it was. Don’t get me wrong, unlike some, I do see a value in Very LowCalorie Diets , with the caveat that it has limitations, and is not the appropriate method for everyone.; it is not a ‘one off cure’; it has been over-hyped in the media; the definition of ‘reversal’, is a loose one, as it defines HbA1c 48, (usually accepted as highest level prediabetic) as reversal. Despite this, for some people with a lot of weight to lose, and like me had struggled, it can offer a lifeline. Though they need to know and understand that the calorie restriction phase is just a very small timescale in the rest of life management that has to follow.

What I do have great concern about, @Tannith, is that from reading your posts, and the responses, you are taking a perfectionist approach, and, have gone to extremes with an obsession about needing to have HbA1c of less than 39, and really low fasting levels. Also, the obsession with frequent OGT tests. The amount of glucose, and the need to consume higher levels of carbs for the few days before could cause erratic increase in BG levels, and the damage on a micro vascular level that you are trying to avoid. Also, I am concerned about your emotional health, too. It appears you have been triggered by a comment from a member, regarding your HbA1c. One member, offering an opinion, that seems to have been misconstrued. Yet lots more members are offering other opinions, supported by research papers, and personal experience, that you choose to ignore. I don’t understand.

@Tannith, please don’t feel you are being ‘got at’. I do admire your tenacity, and determination to follow your chosen path, however misguided many think that is. I also see there are some metits to ND methodology, in the right circumstances. Another big concern I do have is that you are promoting what you suggest are Professor Taylor’s methods, when what you are doing is not that at all. Very misleading, and confusing for people new to T 2 and looking for ways to improve their health.

I am not sure of your age, Tannith, and background, but perhaps as a retired , contented with my lot, type of gal it is easier for me to accept that good enough is good enough. I know that I will die one day. Meantime,I want to do some living, so if I can keep HbA1c on an even keel, (if it stays under 45 that will do, though prefer under 42) and don’t see too high numbers fasting, or post prandial, or have any retinopathy or neuropathy complications, then life is sweet, and there is no need to strive for the perfection that is never going to be attainable. I really wish the same for you.
"It appears you have been triggered by a comment from a member, regarding your HbA1c. One member, offering an opinion, that seems to have been misconstrued. Yet lots more members are offering other opinions, supported by research papers, and personal experience, that you choose to ignore. I don’t understand."
I don't think it was misconstrued -he was suggesting the number was not so great, not that it was a disaster, and I quite understand that. Why I cite it is that it led me to look up normal and prediabetic levels of both HBA1C and FBG and find that my HBA1C was just into the prediabetic when I had wrongly believed it was normal, and that my FBGs were at that time well into prediabetic. Further it led me to get an OGT test which turned out to be quite well into the actual DIABETIC range. It was the results of the investigations the poster's remark prompted me to do, rather than the remark itself, which sounded the alarm that it was time to do something quickly. I have always said, right from the first diet I did, that I was doing "a wimp's version" of Newcastle. I don't like the taste of shakes and at my age (75 by the way) I prefer to do a gentle easy version of the low cal diet. Low cal rather than very low. So I eat 1000 cals a day, real food. It is the principle of the Newcastle Diet that I personally follow rather than the shakes they had to use for consistency in the trial. IE weight loss =fat loss from pancreas = healed Beta cells = reversal of T2. Prof Taylor has repeatedly said that it is the WEIGHT LOSS that matters and that ANY DIET that achieves weight loss will do WILL DO.
 

Jo123

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I low carb as I have never had a bmi over 25 even at my pre diabetic diagnosis in 2009. I've got down to a bmi of 18.5 and still had my blood glucose go over 7.8 when eating a tiny amount of carbs and my fasting levels are pre diabetic still. So I stick at a bmi of 20 and low carb to keep my blood glucose in a normal range.
 
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lucylocket61

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Prof Taylor has repeatedly said that it is the WEIGHT LOSS that matters and that ANY DIET that achieves weight loss will do WILL DO.
Are you open to the ideas that:

1) this may not apply to everyone

2) Prof Taylor may be wrong?
 

Oldvatr

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I am sorry, but I think you are still stating things that are not necessarily true. In fact, you are SHOUTING THEM.

If Roy Taylor is claiming that weight loss is causing diabetes remission, then he is making a false claim, The studies he has done so far show an association between remission and weight loss, so it is part of the story, but association is not proof of cause. In other words, if you go into remisssion first, then there may be a weight loss associated with that. But there are others here who have got remission without major weight loss.

The conundrum I find is that Optifast, Slimfast, and Cambridge Diet plans are all meal replacement diets of 600 cal per day and 8 week duration. They purport to shed pounds of weight, but that is all they claim. They are not recommended for diabetes treatment and carry warnings against this specific use unless under strict medical supervision. They do not make any claims for curing or relieving diabetes, but Simfast does say it can assist bgl control. None of these plans claim to be ketogenic, but Optifast does warn it may happen on rare occasions.

Now Optifast and Cambridge both supplied the shakes used by Roy Taylor in his ND trials, but he adds 200cal of veg on top. So a higher daily caloric rate, so possibly not losing as much weight as the other plans or slowing the rate of loss.

So what makes ND such a magic wand? It is not weight loss and it is not vlcal by itself, so I am stumped. Its not in the shakes. It may be the medical supervision giving impetus. Or is it just that Optifast et al could make the same claims if they get it together to do a controlled study under the eyes of NICE and DUK. My gut feeing is that to make Taylors claims into proof, it needs independent repetition of the trials reaching the same conclusions. Then maybe we can accept ND as being more than a hyped up interesting observational study.
 
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