Tannith's views on reversing T2

[Oldvatr]

Maybe this thread is redundant by yet another method for Diabetes remission. Claimed to be permanent.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...ees-diabetics-insulin-jabs-begins-trials.html

 

[lucylocket61]

Maybe this thread is redundant by yet another method for Diabetes remission. Claimed to be permanent.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...ees-diabetics-insulin-jabs-begins-trials.html

I take issue with this bit:
"But in type 2 diabetics, the walls of the duodenum become thickened as a result of poor diet."

 

[Dr Snoddy]

Next time you are in a supermarket take a look at the portion sizes on the dry pasta packets. Most suggest 75g. Admittedly the pasta will contain a small amount of protein +vitamins as well, but that is broadly the same as the carbs in the OGT. A bit less, but not enough to matter. None of the packets I have seen say that this is "dangerous" and should only be eaten once or twice in a lifetime. Indeed most people eat this amount of carbs at EACH MEAL 3 times a day. Often with carby snacks in between. If it were dangerous they would all have keeled over on the first day. Of course it isn't dangerous. It's what the majority of people in the developed world eat EVERY SINGLE DAY.

This is not a valid comparison with pure glucose solution. The starch in pasta takes time to be digested first to maltose then to glucose. This provides a slower, more controlled rise in blood glucose levels.

 

[Oldvatr]

Found this gem of a study that we all need to read IMHO
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6520897/

Discusses and reviews some 99 trials including Bariatric, VlCD, LCHF diets for Reversal

 

[Tannith]

And to add to that they DON'T do it to pregnant women with a history of diabetes.

No they just do it to pregnant women suspected of having diabetes.

 

[Oldvatr]

No they just do it to pregnant women suspected of having diabetes.

And that is the crux of the matter. That's its job. ONE SHOT DIAGNOSIS as has been explained by @Brunneria

 

[EllieM]

I low carb as I have never had a bmi over 25 even at my pre diabetic diagnosis in 2009. I've got down to a bmi of 18.5 and still had my blood glucose go over 7.8 when eating a tiny amount of carbs and my fasting levels are pre diabetic still. So I stick at a bmi of 20 and low carb to keep my blood glucose in a normal range.

Have you ever been tested to ensure that you are in fact T2 rather than LADA? Some LADA people seem to be able to manage without insulin for decades if they go low enough carb....

 

[VashtiB]

Hi @Tannith

I really want to echo what @Brunneria said. Most if not all of the people that are posting in this thread are not doing it to upset you in any way. They are concerned both for you and for others who may be reading this thread.

You are obviously very distressed to have diabetes. I get that. I really do. I personally would love to believe that I could wave the magic wand and not be a diabetic. The only reason for that (for me) is so I could go back and consume carbs. I love carbs. I have done very l.ow carb for almost 2 years and unlike some lucky people my tastes have not changed- or have changed but not completely- hard to say when I haven't eaten the food I would like for that time.

The thing is I fit into your description of someone that completely has done what should be sufficient to not be a diabetic. I lost about 30 kgs within less than 2 years of diagnosis and weigh less than I did when I didn't have diabetes. But guess what I still have diabetes. I am still intolerant to carbs. I have come to terms with it. While I would like to eat carbs it no longer occupies my mind and I no longer feel sad. I have actually accepted it. I find the less carbs but also the less 'carb like' food I eat the less I suffer. I still have artificial sweeteners but not a huge amount. It have found my own balance.

I like others really worry for you. I hope that what you are doing works for you. I am also concerned that you may be causing yourself harm in the process.

I would really be happy if it works for you. We all want to achieve remission or whatever you want to call it. But we most of all want everyone to be safe and not cause more damage to themselves.

So I hope you read the comments in that light. My experience of this forum is that people are acting from a position of care and compassion and concern. I can't tell you how supportive people here have been when I struggled. I really did struggle. People did not judge me but helped and supported me and that is what I see people doing here.

If you came back and said your approach worked everyone would be glad. We are always happy to hear success stories.

Take care of yourself.

 

[Goonergal]

Next time you are in a supermarket take a look at the portion sizes on the dry pasta packets. Most suggest 75g. Admittedly the pasta will contain a small amount of protein +vitamins as well, but that is broadly the same as the carbs in the OGT. A bit less, but not enough to matter. None of the packets I have seen say that this is "dangerous" and should only be eaten once or twice in a lifetime. Indeed most people eat this amount of carbs at EACH MEAL 3 times a day. Often with carby snacks in between. If it were dangerous they would all have keeled over on the first day. Of course it isn't dangerous. It's what the majority of people in the developed world eat EVERY SINGLE DAY.

That’s not correct. This screenshot is the nutritional information for bog standard, Waitrose essential spaghetti. Clearly shows 32.8g carb per 100g cooked pasta and 59g in a suggested portion. So well below 75g, and as @Brunneria says above, will be more slowly absorbed and eaten as part of a meal.

I would really urge you to take some time to really understand that people here are trying to help. It seems that your heels have been ‘dug in’ but other posters are not trying to ‘win’ an argument, rather to provide information that might help you - or anyone else reading the thread - and prevent you harming yourself.

 

[Tannith]

Pipp's experience of losing a lot of what she had gained by coming off the maintenance diet (albeit through illness) makes me determined to keep going with the 1000 cal diet. It is after all a very easy, lenient diet and I hardly know I'm doing it. It's on the Newcastle principle of "lose weight = lose pancreatic fat= revive differentiated beta cells = reverse T2." With a couple of notable exceptions, (kind people who support my efforts) most on here are doing their utmost to discourage me from losing weight. Whilst I myself am trying to lose the weight before I have had T2 too long for the diet to work, which is sadly what happens to some people who have already lost too many beta cells before they try weight loss. Apparently pre diabetics have already lost 50% ,& by the time they get full blown T2 they have already lost 80% of theirs.

 

[Tannith]

That’s not correct. This screenshot is the nutritional information for bog standard, Waitrose essential spaghetti. Clearly shows 32.8g carb per 100g cooked pasta and 59g in a suggested portion. So well below 75g, and as @Brunneria says above, will be more slowly absorbed and eaten as part of a meal.

I would really urge you to take some time to really understand that people here are trying to help. It seems that your heels have been ‘dug in’ but other posters are not trying to ‘win’ an argument, rather to provide information that might help you - or anyone else reading the thread - and prevent you harming yourself.

View attachment 49079

The packet on top of my fridge that we started yesterday says 75 g. (Morrisons own brand) Maybe posh people who shop at Waitrose are slimmer. Whatever normal people eat half of their calories from carbs. That's 1000 carbs calories per day. That's 250g carbs. That's 83g for each of 3 meals. And though obviously you are right that it's absorbed more slowly in a meal, the difference is not such as to make 75g of carbs - less than a meal's worth - anywhere approaching "dangerous".

post edited by mod to remove factually incorrect and dangerous information.

 

[zand]

Pipp's experience of losing a lot of what she had gained by coming off the maintenance diet (albeit through illness) makes me determined to keep going with the 1000 cal diet. It is after all a very easy, lenient diet and I hardly know I'm doing it. It's on the Newcastle principle of "lose weight = lose pancreatic fat= revive differentiated beta cells = reverse T2." With a couple of notable exceptions, (kind people who support my efforts) most on here are doing their utmost to discourage me from losing weight. Whilst I myself am trying to lose the weight before I have had T2 too long for the diet to work, which is sadly what happens to some people who have already lost too many beta cells before they try weight loss. Apparently pre diabetics have already lost 50% ,& by the time they get full blown T2 they have already lost 80% of theirs.

The reason I am worried about you losing weight is that there things that can be even worse than T2, for instance your risk of osteoporosis gets higher the lighter you are.
Have you checked your risk for osteoporosis for your weight as it is now?

Osteoporosis Risk Score Calculator (thecalculator.co)

I would be interested to know your risk score.

 

[Mike d]

...... most on here are doing their utmost to discourage me from losing weight.

How convenient for you to omit the fact that those people question your methods and the evidence that supports your stance.

 

[Pasha]

The reason I am worried about you losing weight is that there things that can be even worse than T2, for instance your risk of osteoporosis gets higher the lighter you are.
Have you checked your risk for osteoporosis for your weight as it is now?

Osteoporosis Risk Score Calculator (thecalculator.co)

I would be interested to know your risk score.

Sarcopenia is another issue to look into, especially for those that are no longer spring chickens, like me for

example].

 

[zand]

Sarcopenia is another issue to look into, especially for those that are no longer spring chickens, like me for example].

Interesting, thank you. Never heard of that before.

 

[Andydragon]

How convenient for you to omit the fact that those people question your methods and the evidence that supports your stance.

Indeed. Losing weight is not straight forward for many, but if you take that route then this forums is really supportive. Let’s put aside the low carb/cal aspects for now and just focus on calories

1000 cal a day crash diets long term without medical supervision are not something I could get behind, there is plenty of information out there regarding the 1200 a day being bottom level (and even that is too low for vast majority of people outside very limited subset). Yes there are 800 day diets but those are strictly limited and medically supervised (or should be)

Apart from starvation mode, there are real health issues potentially. Let alone that most people move about and use energy too. This is a really worrying stance and people are just raising the concerns

 

[Brunneria]

The packet on top of my fridge that we started yesterday says 75 g. (Morrisons own brand) Maybe posh people who shop at Waitrose are slimmer.

@Tannith
Here is a link to Morrison’s own brand spaghetti
https://groceries.morrisons.com/pro...11IGq-Usn6dZpGDiO_0aAhVtEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
And screen shots

the nutritional information clearly states that a standard portion is 75 g when dry, and when cooked it becomes 180g of wet pasta.

Both wet and dry ‘a portion’ contains 56 g carbs.

Can it be you are misunderstanding the nutritional panel of foods?

 

[Daphne917]

Pipp's experience of losing a lot of what she had gained by coming off the maintenance diet (albeit through illness) makes me determined to keep going with the 1000 cal diet. It is after all a very easy, lenient diet and I hardly know I'm doing it. It's on the Newcastle principle of "lose weight = lose pancreatic fat= revive differentiated beta cells = reverse T2." With a couple of notable exceptions, (kind people who support my efforts) most on here are doing their utmost to discourage me from losing weight. Whilst I myself am trying to lose the weight before I have had T2 too long for the diet to work, which is sadly what happens to some people who have already lost too many beta cells before they try weight loss. Apparently pre diabetics have already lost 50% ,& by the time they get full blown T2 they have already lost 80% of theirs.

@Tannith I don’t think it’s a case of people discouraging you from losing weight but more the way you are doing it. Many of us who have been posting on this thread have had first hand experience of low calorie diets which have not only not worked but also caused permanent damage to our metabolisms in the process however the majority of us are also managing to maintain non diabetic Hba1cs by cutting carbs albeit in varying amounts. Please do not make yourself ill by looking for a panacea that, to all intents and purposes, you already achieved when your last hba1c was 39 which is classed as a non diabetic ie normal BG level and your FBS seems to be between 4.5 and 5.3. My latest hba1c is 36 and I am now officially in remission - my FBS normally hovers between 4.6 and 5.8 (6.1 yesterday but think that was the 2nd COVID jab I had on Thursday) and I hope to stay within that range. I’ll use my meter to advise me if I need to change. However, which is possibly more pertinent, after diagnosis in 2012 I only lost 2 stone, which I think was due to starting Thyroid treatment, so am still classed as overweight although I have lost another 4kg since my last review in Oct 2019.

 

[Oldvatr]

This is what Webmd says about Vlcd
https://www.webmd.com/diet/low-calorie-diets#1

And from Harvard Medical school
According to the Harvard Medical School, the least number of calories that one can consume a day while trying to lose weight is 1,200 a day for women and 1,500 a day for men (5). In light of this, the 800 calorie diet is not a safe eating plan for anyone unless they are under medical supervision.

And the NHS
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-weight/very-low-calorie-diets/

Are you taking any supplements. These diets tend to be very low in calcium, vitamins esp D3 and the B vitamins, also folate and iron which you need for hemoglobin. This last one is important because if hemoglobin is low it affects your hematocrit blood parameter, and that will skew your bgl meter readings. So you may find your bgl appears to be high when it is in fact getting dangerously low. This is why we are concerned and why long term use of this type of diet is considered dangerous,

It is also important for this info to be discussed in this thread so that others reading this thread do not follow a harmful strategy that is misleading, not based on fact, and not supported by the experts. I have no problem with a low-cal diet that is time-limited. To make it an event-limited diet is problematic if the event expected does not occur. The loss or omission of important or essential nutrients becomes a severe issue the longer the diet is run, and damage may be occurring but going unnoticed. As has been mentioned, osteoporosis is one such condition that may not be apparent until physical damage forces medical intervention. Anemia is another one. Gall bladder/ bile duct. Please take the blinkers off,

 

[Mbaker]

Hi @Tannith

I really want to echo what @Brunneria said. Most if not all of the people that are posting in this thread are not doing it to upset you in any way. They are concerned both for you and for others who may be reading this thread.

You are obviously very distressed to have diabetes. I get that. I really do. I personally would love to believe that I could wave the magic wand and not be a diabetic. The only reason for that (for me) is so I could go back and consume carbs. I love carbs. I have done very l.ow carb for almost 2 years and unlike some lucky people my tastes have not changed- or have changed but not completely- hard to say when I haven't eaten the food I would like for that time.

The thing is I fit into your description of someone that completely has done what should be sufficient to not be a diabetic. I lost about 30 kgs within less than 2 years of diagnosis and weigh less than I did when I didn't have diabetes. But guess what I still have diabetes. I am still intolerant to carbs. I have come to terms with it. While I would like to eat carbs it no longer occupies my mind and I no longer feel sad. I have actually accepted it. I find the less carbs but also the less 'carb like' food I eat the less I suffer. I still have artificial sweeteners but not a huge amount. It have found my own balance.

I like others really worry for you. I hope that what you are doing works for you. I am also concerned that you may be causing yourself harm in the process.

I would really be happy if it works for you. We all want to achieve remission or whatever you want to call it. But we most of all want everyone to be safe and not cause more damage to themselves.

So I hope you read the comments in that light. My experience of this forum is that people are acting from a position of care and compassion and concern. I can't tell you how supportive people here have been when I struggled. I really did struggle. People did not judge me but helped and supported me and that is what I see people doing here.

If you came back and said your approach worked everyone would be glad. We are always happy to hear success stories.

Take care of yourself.

Great explanation of the nuances, expectations and challenges. In these circumstances I would go to someone like Dr Paul Mason for expert help. When I was in the 5's for fbg, my wife would tell you, I was prepared to go to Israel, as I had seen results on the gut micro-biome. Keep trying things is my message. I am now shaving time from my regime to see what dose (of food, food combinations, exercise, sleep, relaxation) works for my circumstances.