Tannith's views on reversing T2

[Tannith]

@Tannith
Here is a link to Morrison’s own brand spaghetti
https://groceries.morrisons.com/pro...11IGq-Usn6dZpGDiO_0aAhVtEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
And screen shots
View attachment 49083 View attachment 49084
the nutritional information clearly states that a standard portion is 75 g when dry, and when cooked it becomes 180g of wet pasta.

Both wet and dry ‘a portion’ contains 56 g carbs.

Can it be you are misunderstanding the nutritional panel of foods?

"(as consumed) per 180g cooked pasta (approx. 75g dry pasta)" Exactly as I said 75 g!

 

[Goonergal]

"(as consumed) per 180g cooked pasta (approx. 75g dry pasta)" Exactly as I said 75 g!

@Tannith thats telling you that 75g of uncooked pasta is equivalent to 180g of cooked pasta. It doesn’t reflect the carb content, which is per the link that Brunneria posted of 56.2g carb per 75g portion.

 

[Tannith]

This is what Webmd says about Vlcd
https://www.webmd.com/diet/low-calorie-diets#1

And from Harvard Medical school
According to the Harvard Medical School, the least number of calories that one can consume a day while trying to lose weight is 1,200 a day for women and 1,500 a day for men (5). In light of this, the 800 calorie diet is not a safe eating plan for anyone unless they are under medical supervision.

And the NHS
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-weight/very-low-calorie-diets/

Are you taking any supplements. These diets tend to be very low in calcium, vitamins esp D3 and the B vitamins, also folate and iron which you need for hemoglobin. This last one is important because if hemoglobin is low it affects your hematocrit blood parameter, and that will skew your bgl meter readings. So you may find your bgl appears to be high when it is in fact getting dangerously low. This is why we are concerned and why long term use of this type of diet is considered dangerous,

It is also important for this info to be discussed in this thread so that others reading this thread do not follow a harmful strategy that is misleading, not based on fact, and not supported by the experts. I have no problem with a low-cal diet that is time-limited. To make it an event-limited diet is problematic if the event expected does not occur. The loss or omission of important or essential nutrients becomes a severe issue the longer the diet is run, and damage may be occurring but going unnoticed. As has been mentioned, osteoporosis is one such condition that may not be apparent until physical damage forces medical intervention. Anemia is another one. Gall bladder/ bile duct. Please take the blinkers off,

I am doing a low cal diet, not a vlcd 1000 cal is not vlcd by any means
I take multivitamins/minerals
I get advice from an NHS qualified, registered dietician
And I'm quite a long way away from underweight. Near mid normal BMI
But thank you for the links I have read and noted them

 

[Brunneria]

"(as consumed) per 180g cooked pasta (approx. 75g dry pasta)" Exactly as I said 75 g!

so you were confusing the weight of the dry or cooked pasta with the amount of carbs it contains when you said this:

Most suggest 75g. Admittedly the pasta will contain a small amount of protein +vitamins as well, but that is broadly the same as the carbs in the OGT.

Anyway, hopefully you now realise that the amount of carbs in a food does not equate to the food’s weight.
And that the carbs in pasta, accompanied by other foods in a meal does not affect the body in the same way as a glucose drink taken on an empty stomach.
And that different brands of pasta (Waitrose and Morrisons) does not significantly affect the carb content, as shown on the nutritional labels of both brands.

Glad we have cleared that up.

 

[Tannith]

so you were confusing the weight of the dry or cooked pasta with the amount of carbs it contains when you said this:


Anyway, hopefully you now realise that the amount of carbs in a food does not equate to the food’s weight.
And that the carbs in pasta, accompanied by other foods in a meal does not affect the body in the same way as a glucose drink taken on an empty stomach.
And that different brands of pasta (Waitrose and Morrisons) does not significantly affect the carb content, as shown on the nutritional labels of both brands.

Glad we have cleared that up.

You're quite right I was counting all the grams as carbs though I did recognise some of the weight was fibre and protein. The same applies but to a lesser extent to the 75g glucose powder used in theOGT. It only contains 69 g carbs. 10g difference. Not really enough to justify these cries of "dangerous". Especially as normal people on a 2000 day diet eat 1000 g carb even at the very lowest estimate of carb proportion ie 50%. carbs. That's 1000 carbs calories per day. That's 250g carbs. That's 83g for each of 3 meals. That's the lower end of normal carb consumption for ordinary people. The top end is 60%, that's 300g carbs per day, that's 100 g carbs for each meal. And that's the carbs only, not the other ingredient you might find in your spaghetti. That's what the rest of the world eats 3 times a day, every day of their lives, not once in 3 weeks. It is ridiculous to call a fraction of the normal diet "dangerous".

 

[Oldvatr]

I am doing a low cal diet, not a vlcd 1000 cal is not vlcd by any means
I take multivitamins/minerals
I get advice from an NHS qualified, registered dietician
But thank you for the links I have read and noted them

technically a diet under 1200 Cals / day is classed as vlcd. In one of the links I just posted (The Harvard one I think), it makes this clear. 1200 cal is the minimum low-calorie load for weight loss that is considered safe (for a woman that is, For men, it is higher) Where are you getting your B12 from? Multivitamin supps do not include B12, which is also required for Hemoglobin production, Where is your fat coming from? are your minerals chelated so that you can absorb them?

Have you considered why Newcastle using shakes is claiming remission, but the equivalent shakes-only does not? Even using the exact same shakes? I have lost more than the 15 kg target weight, and now have a normal BMI of 21 Bu I am still diabetic, even though my last 3 HbA1c;c have been at nondiabetic levels. It is not just weight loss. Have you considered that the rate of decrease may be important? And if it is have you gone past the finish line without knowing it? You need viable solutions to this conundrum where ND appears to work, the Optifast 8 week 600 Cal diet does not. Until you can present a decent rationale for this, then I csnnot suuport your approach in any way.

 

[HSSS]

most on here are doing their utmost to discourage me from losing weight

the fact that you honestly see the comments of people this way makes me question if you have issues beyond diabetes? This is categorically not what anyone has said or done. We have worries about your methods and assumptions and the risks they pose NOT about you losing weight whilst remaining in a health bmi range and achieving remission.

Can you really not see that? Is your obsession with beta cell recovery, via ongoing calorie deficit outside medically recommendations, using a one off diagnostic self test that measures something other than how you are using it, limiting your vision so much you cannot even acknowledge anyone’s points and lash out with unfounded accusations of people wishing you harm (by way of preventing health).

call your dr. Demand an up to date hb1ac. (Covid is not universally stopping these nor should it be) and explain to him/her what you are doing and why. Then listen. Please.

 

[HSSS]

Maybe this thread is redundant by yet another method for Diabetes remission. Claimed to be permanent.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...ees-diabetics-insulin-jabs-begins-trials.html

“But in type 2 diabetics, the walls of the duodenum become thickened as a result of poor diet. It no longer signals the release of insulin,”. Two huge assumptions there! And I thought most type 2 actually produced excessive amounts of insulin, at least in the first few decades. Only read the article so far not the study so maybe it’s shoddy reporting rather than science.

 

[lucylocket61]

With a couple of notable exceptions, (kind people who support my efforts) most on here are doing their utmost to discourage me from losing weight.

more false statements.

 

[lucylocket61]

The packet on top of my fridge that we started yesterday says 75 g. (Morrisons own brand) Maybe posh people who shop at Waitrose are slimmer. Whatever normal people eat half of their calories from carbs. That's 1000 carbs calories per day. That's 250g carbs. That's 83g for each of 3 meals. And though obviously you are right that it's absorbed more slowly in a meal, the difference is not such as to make 75g of carbs - less than a meal's worth - anywhere approaching "dangerous".

post edited by mod to remove factually incorrect and dangerous information.

100g of dried spaghetti is around 85g of carbs. 75g of dried spaghetti is 62g of carbs max.

 

[lucylocket61]

"(as consumed) per 180g cooked pasta (approx. 75g dry pasta)" Exactly as I said 75 g!

no - because the cab content of a food is not equal to the weight of that food unless it is pure sucrose. Just as the protein content of a food is not equal to the size of the portion, not of all of the portion is 100% protein.

eg. 75g of uncooked spaghetti is around 60g of carb. an egg weighing 28g is around 7g of protein.

 

[lucylocket61]

You're quite right I was counting all the grams as carbs though I did recognise some of the weight was fibre and protein. The same applies but to a lesser extent to the 75g glucose powder used in theOGT. It only contains 69 g carbs. 10g difference. Not really enough to justify these cries of "dangerous". Especially as normal people on a 2000 day diet eat 1000 g carb even at the very lowest estimate of carb proportion ie 50%. arbs. That's 1000 carbs calories per day. That's 250g carbs. That's 83g for each of 3 meals. That's the lower end of normal carb consumption for ordinary people. The top end is 60%, that's 300g carbs per day, that's 100 g carbs for each meal. And that's the carbs only, not the other ingredient you might find in your spaghetti. That's what the rest of the world eats 3 times a day, every day of their lives, not once in 3 weeks. It is ridiculous to call a fraction of the normal diet "dangerous".

its the speed of the hit.

If you are hit by a car going 30 miles an hour, the damage is less than if you are hit by a car going 60 miles an hour. Same with our pancreas and a carb intake.

the glucose drink hits very fast, shocking our system. Do you think doctors and hospitals would have medical staff to administer OGT's and monitor them if it wasnt necessary?

 

[Brunneria]

Tannith,

There are only so many times that I and others can explain this to you, since we have now repeated the same basic information to you over and over again:

The impact of 75g carbs in a glucose drink, on an empty stomach, to someone with a history of diabetes, has a potentially dangerous impact on the body. It is intended to be done only as a diagnostic tool, under medical supervision. Once that diagnosis is made, the glucose tolerance test is not repeated.

The impact of 56g carbs from pasta, combined with a meal containing fats, fibre and protein has a very different impact, although even that may have a harmful impact on someone with a history of diabetes.

Your repetition of the same incorrect information over and over again will not make it true.

 

[lucylocket61]

Especially as normal people

that the crux of the issue. Type 2 diabetics are not normal people. Thats why we cant eat carbs like 'normal' people without damaging ourselves, and are told to reduce our carbs.

you may be aiming for becoming 'normal' again, but your are not there yet, so are still going to get damaged.

 

[Oldvatr]

You're quite right I was counting all the grams as carbs though I did recognise some of the weight was fibre and protein. The same applies but to a lesser extent to the 75g glucose powder used in theOGT. It only contains 69 g carbs. 10g difference. Not really enough to justify these cries of "dangerous". Especially as normal people on a 2000 day diet eat 1000 g carb even at the very lowest estimate of carb proportion ie 50%. arbs. That's 1000 carbs calories per day. That's 250g carbs. That's 83g for each of 3 meals. That's the lower end of normal carb consumption for ordinary people. The top end is 60%, that's 300g carbs per day, that's 100 g carbs for each meal. And that's the carbs only, not the other ingredient you might find in your spaghetti. That's what the rest of the world eats 3 times a day, every day of their lives, not once in 3 weeks. It is ridiculous to call a fraction of the normal diet "dangerous".

Once again your maths is suspect. The 50% diet ratio value is 50% of calories, NOT grams of carbs, Where is your dietician when you need them. Yes, we do eat high carb loads, but as has been pointed out the OGTT is a particularly vicious assault on our metabolism. It is intended to be. It is not dangerous in the sense of poisonous, but it is unnecessary to use it willy nilly since it will negate your efforts to lose weight. Where do you think that glucose goes when your bgl levels drop? Yes, some comes out in the urine since it is such a shock that we react in that way, So it stresses the kidneys. But the bulk of it gets converted into fat stored in the body. Each molecule of glucose stored as fat takes an equivalent amount of water into the cells, and water weighs more than glucose. Some of the glucose is also stored in the adipose tissue, which is exactly what you are trying to attack. Fat in the adipose tissue is harder to lose than subcutaneous fat or muscle fat, so it could be building back up ready for the next time when you find you need to repeat the diet again. Since the OGTT test will not answer your questions, why bother with it? Do what most of us do - take note of how long our blood sugars take to return to the pre-meal value. Even non-diabetics can peak above the magic 7.8 mmol/l after eating a high carb meal, but they drop their bgl levels quickly,

Glucose is a sugar that is a simple carbohydrate that is easy and quick to digest. Pasta is a complex carb and takes time and energy to break down into simple sugar molecules. Glucose triggers the first insulin response even while it is in the mouth before swallowing. Pasta does not trigger a stage 1 insulin response and only reacts with the bolus stage 2 response. So it is not a suitable candidate for an OGTT style experiment.

 

[Mike d]

Kind thanks to all of you who've rekindled my long lost love for spaghetti marinara / bolognese / carbonara. NOT

 

[Mbaker]

that the crux of the issue. Type 2 diabetics are not normal people. Thats why we cant eat carbs like 'normal' people without damaging ourselves, and are told to reduce our carbs.

you may be aiming for becoming 'normal' again, but your are not there yet, so are still going to get damaged.

Can "normal" people eat "normally" into the late 20's, 30's etc? What is "normal" eating? These questons are root analysis that are skirted around, but go to the heart of almost every thread on this forum.

A five year old's view would be different to a 5 year old 70 years ago in any modern country.

 

[Lamont D]

Can "normal" people eat "normally" into the late 20's, 30's etc? What is "normal" eating? These questons are root analysis that are skirted around, but go to the heart of almost every thread on this forum.

A five year old's view would be different to a 5 year old 70 years ago in any modern country.

With diabetes, that is why a hba1c test is used as a baseline, the normal levels of a adult as a fasting test, is between 3.5-6mmols.
This measurement was collected by medical professionals to help diagnosis. And as they collated the results, they decided that any reading within that range was normal.

There was of course, many who were not in that range. But when the average is found, that is the norm, hence being normal.

But in true sense of the word, if you have a metabolism that is abnormal, how can you get back to normal. That is not how it works. Hence those who have had success, say that they are in remission

The importance of being in control, for your health, is more likely to keep you healthier rather than normal.
I'm not normal and haven't been for well over twenty years or for those that really know me, insist that I have never been anything but weird.
I'm proud of being normal (bloods) with a endocrine condition that is totally abnormal.


I don't think that it clears it any more!
I'm still out!

 

[Jaylee]

Lucozade:
"the orange flavour of the energy drink which has even more sugar in it.

The 500ml bottle has 62.5g of sugar – the equivalent of 16 teaspoons – and if you drink the whole thing you"ll be guzzling down 310 calories."
That's almost as much as is in the OGT. Is that "dangerous" too? If so it would be banned especially as the kids round here often drink more than one bottle (with their sweets) on the way home from school. I wouldn't let my kids do it, but it's definitely not dangerous (unless they are T1s and haven't had their insulin).

Hi,

Steady on with the bold in red.

Looking at the packaging right now "8.4carbs" of which are sugers "4.5." That's per per 100ml.
I can nudge up from a hypo on a ton glug. Certainly need no insulin in this instance..
I'm not keen on the stuff either, but needs must.....

 

[Pipp]

Pipp's experience of losing a lot of what she had gained by coming off the maintenance diet (albeit through illness) makes me determined to keep going with the 1000 cal diet

Can you explain this please, @Tannith, because it is not an accurate description of my experience.
If I have said something that has been misunderstood, then I am concerned that I am being held partly responsible for some choices you are making, and would like to correct any errors.