Low carb v wholefood vegan diet to reverse type 2?

[hecate105]

I first became diabetic about 5 yrs ago. My blood sugar was 56. I said i would rather use diet to change it and the Dr at the time agreed and suggested that (although she had no knowledge of it) a low carb diet might work. She gave me 3 months to change it - or /I would have to take meds.
I did so - no sugars/alcohol/bread or any other major carbs. Also cut out most fruits and starchy veg - no carrots even!!
It made me really ill.... I had extreme stomach aches and lots of diarrhoea ..... but it did reverse my diabetes and it went down to 38.
I then tried to avoid major carbs but after a few months I was on a long cycle tour in Asia - and they do love their sugar there! Every drink would come sweetened unless you really made a fuss! The miles of cycling and heat made it impossible to avoid alcohol completely too.... So by the end of the trip i was on a normal diet for me - lots of veg, some protein , some carbs - mostly wholefoods, rarely anything pre-made. But some alcohol and occasionally sweet things.. (I shared a cake twice a week!)
But within 4 years my blood sugar had shot up again. Obvs with covid - did not get any testing until this august - and my blood level was up to 56 again!
This time a Dr phoned me - I said I would do the low carb thing again and she said 'Definitey Not' She said that a low carb diert would reverse it but make me more prone to swinging back to a diabetic level. As a low carb diet was impossible to follow for any longer than the 3 months - (the pain and discomfort was awful - and I really never eat that much protein/fat etc.) and my cholesterol (which has aways been ok) was now high 5.9 - i agreed to go on a WholeLife Course that the surgery had set up with many people reversing their diabetes/losing weight/lowering blood pressure.
The course was 7 weeks long and was a website and an hour zoom meeting each week. It wanted everyone to try to do at least 4 weeks on a vegan, wholefood diet. No pre-made food, no alcohol/sugar etc - only plant-based protein and veg, fruit and wholegrain carbs - brown rice, wholegrain bread - and only 3 teaspoons of olive oil a day - no other fat, no eggs/dairy either.
Well - i did it for 6 weeks - to the letter - my Blood sugar came down to 48, my cholesterol reduced only a little 5.6 and i did lose one and a half stone in weight..... But the diet did suit me - I had no pain or bowel problems and it made me actually want to eat less meat and fish. i now eat mostly vegan with eggs once or twice and meat once a week.... I have had alcohol but am limiting it to once a week.
It seems to me that both diets reduce the blood sugar - but only one is feasible for me - I cannot cope with the pain and discomfort of the low carb. I think we are suited to one or the other - my husband could easily eat a totally protein and veg diet - and mostly does (he can't do gluten or dairy - or he gets asthmatic!)
Has anyone else had experience of either or both diets? Has anyone done it for mare than a year or so and kept their blood sugar low??

 

[KennyA]

I first became diabetic about 5 yrs ago. My blood sugar was 56. I said i would rather use diet to change it and the Dr at the time agreed and suggested that (although she had no knowledge of it) a low carb diet might work. She gave me 3 months to change it - or /I would have to take meds.
I did so - no sugars/alcohol/bread or any other major carbs. Also cut out most fruits and starchy veg - no carrots even!!
It made me really ill.... I had extreme stomach aches and lots of diarrhoea ..... but it did reverse my diabetes and it went down to 38.
I then tried to avoid major carbs but after a few months I was on a long cycle tour in Asia - and they do love their sugar there! Every drink would come sweetened unless you really made a fuss! The miles of cycling and heat made it impossible to avoid alcohol completely too.... So by the end of the trip i was on a normal diet for me - lots of veg, some protein , some carbs - mostly wholefoods, rarely anything pre-made. But some alcohol and occasionally sweet things.. (I shared a cake twice a week!)
But within 4 years my blood sugar had shot up again. Obvs with covid - did not get any testing until this august - and my blood level was up to 56 again!
This time a Dr phoned me - I said I would do the low carb thing again and she said 'Definitey Not' She said that a low carb diert would reverse it but make me more prone to swinging back to a diabetic level. As a low carb diet was impossible to follow for any longer than the 3 months - (the pain and discomfort was awful - and I really never eat that much protein/fat etc.) and my cholesterol (which has aways been ok) was now high 5.9 - i agreed to go on a WholeLife Course that the surgery had set up with many people reversing their diabetes/losing weight/lowering blood pressure.
The course was 7 weeks long and was a website and an hour zoom meeting each week. It wanted everyone to try to do at least 4 weeks on a vegan, wholefood diet. No pre-made food, no alcohol/sugar etc - only plant-based protein and veg, fruit and wholegrain carbs - brown rice, wholegrain bread - and only 3 teaspoons of olive oil a day - no other fat, no eggs/dairy either.
Well - i did it for 6 weeks - to the letter - my Blood sugar came down to 48, my cholesterol reduced only a little 5.6 and i did lose one and a half stone in weight..... But the diet did suit me - I had no pain or bowel problems and it made me actually want to eat less meat and fish. i now eat mostly vegan with eggs once or twice and meat once a week.... I have had alcohol but am limiting it to once a week.
It seems to me that both diets reduce the blood sugar - but only one is feasible for me - I cannot cope with the pain and discomfort of the low carb. I think we are suited to one or the other - my husband could easily eat a totally protein and veg diet - and mostly does (he can't do gluten or dairy - or he gets asthmatic!)
Has anyone else had experience of either or both diets? Has anyone done it for mare than a year or so and kept their blood sugar low??

I have been on a low-carb pattern for over two years now on around 20ish grams of carbs/day. IF almost by default, regularly 18 hours, often 24 without eating. BGs came into normal range within four months and have stayed in the 36-38 range since. I eat meat, dairy, veg, and I drink alcohol. No problems at all with the diet, never hungry.

Well done on your success - I think this illustrates that taking a "you must do what I do" approach is often counterproductive. Low carb clearly works as a means to reduce blood sugars, but there may be several roads to that goal for us.

 

[Deleted member 543160]

I've eaten a low carb/ketogenic diet since my T2 diagnosis just over 8 years ago. I've never had any issues with this - it suits me fine, and it additionally resolved some other health issues for me too, most importantly putting and end to my lifelong, debilitating, chronic migraines. My glucose levels came down to pre-diabetic within a couple of months. I eat as varied a diet as possible, just avoiding all sugary starchy foods, and adding a little extra fat instead for energy needs. I was brought up eating a moderate carb normal full fat diet (meat and two veg) and it was only when i ended up I ended up eating too many carbs that I ended up diabetic. I can keep my glucose levels to just on normal/low pre diabetic levels, and the only times I see a slight rise in HbA1cs is if I've had other health issues, or more rarely scoffing too many carbs, so I see no reason to change my eating style now. And as a bonus I've not been on any diabetic meds since 2017.

So I'd agree, no one diet suits all.

 

[MrsA2]

I'm 21 months into low carb and used to have bowel problems. I now think I had some kind of intolerance or allergy to grains. I used to think I had problems with dairy, but no more. Or maybe it was the combination of both?
Either way, the real solution is finding something that keeps bg low and is sustainable for life.
Several people on here report good results on most short term diets, but its finding a way of eating for life that is key.
3w
@hecate105 do you finger prick regularly? Finger pricking has shown me I can eat carrots, but parsnips send my bg way high., both similar veg but very different effects.
And what plant based protein do you have that isn't premade or manufactured?
Genuinely interested as I love veg and fruit and would like to find more to replace the ones that don't like me!

 

[In Response]

I think the important thing is that we are all different. If something works for you, go for it. And just because something works for others does not mean it will work for you.

And, of course, well done for your achievement in reducing your levels.

 

[hecate105]

Thanks all of you for the replies - it seems the low carb works for a lot of people!! I will plug on with wholefood diet and (after new year - cut out alcohol again!! It is really encouraging that people are able to control the blood levels with diet - I am feeling boosted!!
MrsA2 - I cook from scratch always - so make hummous from chickpeas every week - and sometimes a pea hummous (frozen peas blitzed with some butter beans and garlic), we eat bean stews and refried beans, chilli beans, curries - a lot of lentils dishes - we love dahl! I use gram flour (chickpeas again) in pancakes and to make pakora type things - it is a really versatile flour!! In S France they have a streetfood called Socca - chickpea flour and water - cooked in a roaring hot woodfire oven - it is delicious! We make our own version and pile cooked veg/olives/salad etc (whatever is left over in fridge!) on top. I do use nuts too - but not too many. And mushrooms - but I'm not sure if they have much protein - just look like they should!!

 

[ianf0ster]

Low carb works for me - over 2 and a 1/2 years. I find it easy to sustain and with no side effects except for improving my Lipid ratios and reducing my weight back to what it was in my 20's (I'm just shy of 71).

Any means of controlling Type 2 must be long term sustainable for the patient, because this is a marathon. Hence each one of Low Carb/Keto, Very Low a, Fasting and Bariatric Surgery have around a 40% to 50% success rate after 2 to 3yrs. If we were all the same then one or more of those would have much a much higher success rate and there would be no need for Type 2 drugs.

Congrats at finding something that works for you, it wouldn't have worked for me because I would have given up after my BG meter registered the first spike.
That was what was so good about low Carb for me, I got instant results as shown on my BG meter and was able to use it to test to find all the foods I needed to avoid.

 

[KennyA]

Thanks all of you for the replies - it seems the low carb works for a lot of people!! I will plug on with wholefood diet and (after new year - cut out alcohol again!! It is really encouraging that people are able to control the blood levels with diet - I am feeling boosted!!
MrsA2 - I cook from scratch always - so make hummous from chickpeas every week - and sometimes a pea hummous (frozen peas blitzed with some butter beans and garlic), we eat bean stews and refried beans, chilli beans, curries - a lot of lentils dishes - we love dahl! I use gram flour (chickpeas again) in pancakes and to make pakora type things - it is a really versatile flour!! In S France they have a streetfood called Socca - chickpea flour and water - cooked in a roaring hot woodfire oven - it is delicious! We make our own version and pile cooked veg/olives/salad etc (whatever is left over in fridge!) on top. I do use nuts too - but not too many. And mushrooms - but I'm not sure if they have much protein - just look like they should!!

Interested to know what BG readings you're getting on that, and what your most recent HbA1c is.

 

[EllieM]

MrsA2 - I cook from scratch always - so make hummous from chickpeas every week

I love hummus (though I'm fussy and infinitely prefer the home made stuff to bought ones). As it's currently summer here I have lots of low carb vegetables to eat with it, so it doesn't do bad things to my blood sugar. (As a T1 I eat moderately low carb because it's easier to control my weight and blood sugar on less carbs and insulin).

It's fascinating to hear about your wholefood journey, as though there are a few posters here who do this they tend to be outnumbered by the low carbers.

 

[Resurgam]

I was taking Metformin when first diagnosed, along with Atorvastatin and my gut reacted dreadfully. It is a common side effect, and I did wonder if that might have been the culprit.
I eat low carb and have no problems a bit of indigestion of I eat anything with ordinary flour. Bread flour seems to be OK, but cakes or biscuits are a definite no. I can manage more carbs now I am 5 years from diagnosis, but I am still cautious due to weight gain still being just as easy as ever, and the indigestion can be quite unpleasant.

 

[hecate105]

My HbA1c was 48 in mid november - down from 56 in august! But blood meter readings (i only test some mornings before eating anything) - are anything from 8-12.... so not good really... Have a diabetic eye test next week .
I am going to be strict again tomorrow - have had a bit of a slide over xmas...!!
Happy new year everyone!

 

[TriciaWs]

Three and a half years on low carb for me so far - not sure why your doctor thinks we can only do 3 months!
We can help with ideas for adjusting low carb meals to reduce any symptoms - in my case it was constipation so I have milled flaxseed and chia seeds for breakfast most days.

 

[hecate105]

For me it was constant stomach ache/diarrhoea from too much protein - and i think despite lots of non root veg - i was not getting enough fibre. Now i'm on loads of beans and lentils and loads of veg - as well as wholemeal bread and rice - i don't get stomach problems - and certainly no diarrhoea - and i dont feel hungry - on the low carb i was ravenous all the time despite eating more!
I feel for you Tricia - I had fibromyalgia for 22 years = it was horrific and life-changing.... ( https://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/An_Introduction_to_Tension_Myositis_Syndrome_(TMS) https://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Structured_Educational_Program / https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/
I have copied links for you - have a look and see if it chimes with you.... it took me 3 months of constant work (the structured educational prog etc) and about 2 more years to become pain free - and free of all symptoms except I still have a little brain fog left!! But now i am relatively healthy and am able to work as a landscaper again and go on long cycle rides! Hope it helps...

 

[TriciaWs]

For me it was constant stomach ache/diarrhoea from too much protein - and i think despite lots of non root veg - i was not getting enough fibre. Now i'm on loads of beans and lentils and loads of veg - as well as wholemeal bread and rice - i don't get stomach problems - and certainly no diarrhoea - and i dont feel hungry - on the low carb i was ravenous all the time despite eating more!
I feel for you Tricia - I had fibromyalgia for 22 years = it was horrific and life-changing.... ( https://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/An_Introduction_to_Tension_Myositis_Syndrome_(TMS) https://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Structured_Educational_Program / https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/
I have copied links for you - have a look and see if it chimes with you.... it took me 3 months of constant work (the structured educational prog etc) and about 2 more years to become pain free - and free of all symptoms except I still have a little brain fog left!! But now i am relatively healthy and am able to work as a landscaper again and go on long cycle rides! Hope it helps...

Thank you. Unfortunately I have other conditions as well including reflex syncope plus arthritis in most joints and spinal problems so not much chance of exercise.

 

[Cas40]

I was diagnosed in September and over three months cut carbs down, did some fasting and upped the exercise slightly. I went from a 53Hb1ac to 35! Now working on losing a bit more weight and once that is done, will work on finding a fairly low carb balanced lifestyle. It can’t be so severe that you can’t keep it up and actually shouldn’t have to be either. Even during the three months where I reduced my numbers, I allowed myself to go out, eat and drink, just a bit carefully. I would say try low carb and added sugar free, you can only do your best!

 

[Lainie71]

Three and a half years on low carb for me so far - not sure why your doctor thinks we can only do 3 months!
We can help with ideas for adjusting low carb meals to reduce any symptoms - in my case it was constipation so I have milled flaxseed and chia seeds for breakfast most days.

I have started having golden linseeds with my salads & stir fries. Seems to work better than inulin with me. No more constipation which is bliss

 

[HSSS]

For me it was constant stomach ache/diarrhoea from too much protein - and i think despite lots of non root veg - i was not getting enough fibre. Now i'm on loads of beans and lentils and loads of veg - as well as wholemeal bread and rice - i don't get stomach problems - and certainly no diarrhoea - and i dont feel hungry - on the low carb i was ravenous all the time despite eating more!

Had you posted at the time of experiencing this I would have said low carb or even keto doesn’t have to be high protein. If you were simply replacing the carbs with protein and non root veg the hunger might well have been about lack of fats. They are essential and lots of people simply are too scared to increase these due to the whole fat is bad myth. Fibre can be obtained from seeds and nuts

if you feel a drop of 8 hba1c points and morning levels of 8-12 is where you want to be then fair enough. Personally I’d be rethinking the higher carb approach you’ve chosen, especially the rice and bread.

 

[Gracie204]

I followed a high protein/high fat diet for two years, but never lost any weight, and suffered a lot from digestive problems. I think the digestive problems stemmed from the amount of fat I included in my diet - butter, cream, oil, fatty meats, etc. I love the sound of the Whole Life Diet Course, but when I've tried following a plant based diet I couldn't stick to it because I did not enjoy the food. I wish that I did. So currently I eat meat, fish, cheese, eggs, and include a small amount of carbohydrates in my diet.

I'd certainly carry on with the plant based foods, but monitor carefully your blood glucose levels. I wish you well.

 

[VikingMermaid]

Thanks all of you for the replies - it seems the low carb works for a lot of people!! I will plug on with wholefood diet and (after new year - cut out alcohol again!! It is really encouraging that people are able to control the blood levels with diet - I am feeling boosted!!
MrsA2 - I cook from scratch always - so make hummous from chickpeas every week - and sometimes a pea hummous (frozen peas blitzed with some butter beans and garlic), we eat bean stews and refried beans, chilli beans, curries - a lot of lentils dishes - we love dahl! I use gram flour (chickpeas again) in pancakes and to make pakora type things - it is a really versatile flour!! In S France they have a streetfood called Socca - chickpea flour and water - cooked in a roaring hot woodfire oven - it is delicious! We make our own version and pile cooked veg/olives/salad etc (whatever is left over in fridge!) on top. I do use nuts too - but not too many. And mushrooms - but I'm not sure if they have much protein - just look like they should!!

This is so helpful - thank you. I suspect I am pre-diabetic (or fully diabetic!) and am just about to book an appt with GP to test. Four months ago I became vegan and while I had been tired to the point of exhaustion regularly over the past several years (bloods came back normal when tested 5 years ago), I'm doubly aware now of more spiky fatigue, particularly after certain meals. Breakfast is mostly whole porridge oats with berries, coconut yoghurt, often sliced banana, chia seeds (or with dates and cinnamon, or peanut butter and hemp seed), alternatively quinoa with ginger and banana, or peanut butter and banana on toast. Then main dishes based around beans/chickpeas/lentils, tofu, tempeh, with loads of salad or veg (including carrots and potatoes). All grains are wholegrain. From what I have now read on this site, it sounds like my otherwise mostly healthy diet is a bit of a diabetic nightmare!

So I have two questions:
1) what on earth do you eat for breakfast? Have I got to start eating scrambled tofu again? And without toast? (Am guessing spinach, mushrooms, the odd tomato - but can't see me doing this regularly, and tofu isn't cheap.)
2) can you recommend a good vegan diabetic cookbook, ideally with pictures? I have ADHD and trying to cope with finding individual recipes online is a nightmare (distractibility, difficulty in following instructions - I need a book!, overwhelm).

Very much appreciated if you can help

 

[VikingMermaid]

I first became diabetic about 5 yrs ago. My blood sugar was 56. I said i would rather use diet to change it and the Dr at the time agreed and suggested that (although she had no knowledge of it) a low carb diet might work. She gave me 3 months to change it - or /I would have to take meds.
I did so - no sugars/alcohol/bread or any other major carbs. Also cut out most fruits and starchy veg - no carrots even!!
It made me really ill.... I had extreme stomach aches and lots of diarrhoea ..... but it did reverse my diabetes and it went down to 38.
I then tried to avoid major carbs but after a few months I was on a long cycle tour in Asia - and they do love their sugar there! Every drink would come sweetened unless you really made a fuss! The miles of cycling and heat made it impossible to avoid alcohol completely too.... So by the end of the trip i was on a normal diet for me - lots of veg, some protein , some carbs - mostly wholefoods, rarely anything pre-made. But some alcohol and occasionally sweet things.. (I shared a cake twice a week!)
But within 4 years my blood sugar had shot up again. Obvs with covid - did not get any testing until this august - and my blood level was up to 56 again!
This time a Dr phoned me - I said I would do the low carb thing again and she said 'Definitey Not' She said that a low carb diert would reverse it but make me more prone to swinging back to a diabetic level. As a low carb diet was impossible to follow for any longer than the 3 months - (the pain and discomfort was awful - and I really never eat that much protein/fat etc.) and my cholesterol (which has aways been ok) was now high 5.9 - i agreed to go on a WholeLife Course that the surgery had set up with many people reversing their diabetes/losing weight/lowering blood pressure.
The course was 7 weeks long and was a website and an hour zoom meeting each week. It wanted everyone to try to do at least 4 weeks on a vegan, wholefood diet. No pre-made food, no alcohol/sugar etc - only plant-based protein and veg, fruit and wholegrain carbs - brown rice, wholegrain bread - and only 3 teaspoons of olive oil a day - no other fat, no eggs/dairy either.
Well - i did it for 6 weeks - to the letter - my Blood sugar came down to 48, my cholesterol reduced only a little 5.6 and i did lose one and a half stone in weight..... But the diet did suit me - I had no pain or bowel problems and it made me actually want to eat less meat and fish. i now eat mostly vegan with eggs once or twice and meat once a week.... I have had alcohol but am limiting it to once a week.
It seems to me that both diets reduce the blood sugar - but only one is feasible for me - I cannot cope with the pain and discomfort of the low carb. I think we are suited to one or the other - my husband could easily eat a totally protein and veg diet - and mostly does (he can't do gluten or dairy - or he gets asthmatic!)
Has anyone else had experience of either or both diets? Has anyone done it for mare than a year or so and kept their blood sugar low??

Thank you so much for this post, Hecate105! You mentioned a Wholelife course, which sounded interesting and googled it immediately. Found out the course was available in my area, covered by the Coastal Communities network - and then (flipping heck!) discovered it was actually set up right here in my hometown (and the next-door one), making it free of charge to me!

Suffice to say I (and one of my sisters, who also lives here) signed up immediately, and we start the course on 4 October. Yay (gives a little skip of excitement)!

Even weirder, back in April (when I finally decided to go vegan), I had come across a zero waste shop on FB, based in Totnes, where there was mention of a couple of lads ('The Happy Pear'), who'd popped into their shop (they'd set up a vegan/wellbeing cafe above a greengrocers in Ireland, and were now very successful running diet/lifestyle-based health and wellbeing courses. I bought one of their books ("The Happy Health Plan"), in which they mentioned a study (The Devon South-West Plant-Based Challenge) that they'd rolled out to medical practitioners here in Devon, with similar guidelines used on the courses they offered globally. But at £160 a pop, I hadn't been able to afford them. Now it appears likely that the WholeLife course you mention has come off the back of The Happy Pear's plant-based challenge! Serendipity

Question for you: when you were doing the 4-week WholeLife diet, were you given a day-by-day eating plan, or just a selection of recipe ideas? I ask because I have ADHD, and struggle enormously to plan what I'm eating, meaning I tend to fall back on whatever I happen to have in the cupboard. I really need somebody to invent a 28-day 'this is what you're cooking/eating today' plan, and am hoping against hope that the WholeLife diet will provide this. If not, how did you manage to plan four weeks worth of meals that fitted the WholeLife plan?

Anyway, I'm enormously grateful to you for mentioning the course