Bulgar Wheat

rebowe1308

Active Member
Messages
25
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Evening
Just wondering if anyone else has a big spike when eating bulgar wheat. bloods 5.4 before meal, had chicken breast, roasted courgettes and peppers, rocket, and 3 tbsp of bulgar wheat with fresh herbs.
2 hours later 10.1 !!
I just wanted to see whether anyone else had spikes like this with bulgar wheat which according to everyone and their aunt is lower carb grain with plenty of fibre and low GI ?
☺️
 
M

Member496333

Guest
All wheat is problematic for type 2. In fact it contains more glucose per gram than actual table sugar. Fibre may markedly slow the release in comparison but in the end the glucose footprint is high. Sorry.
 

BravoKilo

Well-Known Member
Messages
58
Impossible. Sugar has 100 grams of carbs per 100 grams, of which 100 grams are sugar.

I thing the confusion here is that “ sugar” referred to here means table sugar, sucrose, which a mix of glucose and fructose, hence giving a GI of around 65 Compared to glucose (the reference value if 100)
 

ianf0ster

Moderator
Staff Member
Messages
2,428
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
exercise, phone calls
Yes, wheat flour has a higher GI and spikes Blood Glucose more than the same amount of pure table sugar.
That's because the fructose is processed by the liver an there turned into fat. So although it won't directly hurt our blood glucose, it will contribute to non-alcoholic fatty liver disease.
 

Geordie_P

Well-Known Member
Messages
849
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Bulgar wheat may be lower in carbs, but it is still high carb. Low GI and slower release due to fibre etc just mean you spike later in my case- I really don't think any of those 'carb qualifiers' have a significant enough effect on carb intake. I tried to lose weight before diagnosis by eating mainly brown rice and pulses.
Guess where that got me!
 

Jo123

Well-Known Member
Messages
718
I think you'd find it hard to find someone who doesn't have a large spoke eating bulgar wheat!
 

Mbaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,339
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Available fast foods in Supermarkets
Thanks for posting your results, this adds facts to theory.

It is vital that both newbies and arbitrators of the site have these repeating anecdotes as to what these fall back foods do to blood glucose regulation, they never work when tested. Results count much more than wishful thinking, or what a pushed protocol, mainstream dietitian or nutritionist trots out as gospel.

It is an unsustainable position to shield behind the "we are all different" platitude, during ingestion, the body has the most almost violent reaction to glucose based foods. I think there are slight differences technically in a regular human without underlying conditions dependent on historical eating, ancestral bodily understanding of the food / food-like substance, with the dominant difference being tastes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ZoeMobley

Beating-My-Betes

Well-Known Member
Messages
661
Evening
Just wondering if anyone else has a big spike when eating bulgar wheat. bloods 5.4 before meal, had chicken breast, roasted courgettes and peppers, rocket, and 3 tbsp of bulgar wheat with fresh herbs.
2 hours later 10.1 !!
I just wanted to see whether anyone else had spikes like this with bulgar wheat which according to everyone and their aunt is lower carb grain with plenty of fibre and low GI ?
☺️

There are many things that are known to affect blood-sugar levels (Stress; hydration; sleep quality; morning-meal/evening-meal?; level of activity; time since last meal etc.). If you really want to get an idea of how bulgar wheat or any other food affects your BG, then it's better to test that particular food on its own.

Fat and glucose in the blood are competing/blocking entities. And while chicken is often seen as low-fat, it's likely not so low as to have no discernible effect. A medium, skinless breast has 5 grams of fat. Add the skin, the amount of fat almost doubles. And that's before any oil you cooked it in. In and of itself, it's not a huge amount of fat. But the combination of that and the glucose in the blood at the same time is when issues start to arise. Both Neal Barnard and Ted Naiman (Two people who are about as far apart, nutritionally-speaking, as it gets) both are keen to point out the inherent problems with this mix (I think Naiman refers to it as a toxic mess, or something similar, and Barnard has his gummed-up lock and key analogy).

But yeah...if you're really interested to find out, try as best you can to match as much of the situation as you can (Trying to reduce confounding variables) e.g similar time-of-day, same routine etc. (No need to get it 100% perfect) then just eat the exact same quantity of plain, boiled bulgar wheat, with nothing else, and test as normal (60, 120 etc.)

It may still have a noticeably higher effect than it might do for a non-diabetic, and perhaps more so if you tend to be very low-carb normally. Either way, the reading should at least a closer representation of what's going on.
 

Goonergal

Master
Retired Moderator
Messages
13,465
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Fat and glucose in the blood are competing/blocking entities.

Fat - certainly significant fat - is likely to slow any blood glucose reaction and/or lower it but keep glucose raised for longer than carbs on their own.

Both Neal Barnard and Ted Naiman (Two people who are about as far apart, nutritionally-speaking, as it gets) both are keen to point out the inherent problems with this mix

Naiman’s position relates not so much to blood sugar issues but to weight and potential gain thereof (i.e it’s about energy ratios ) so I’m not sure of its relevance to a question about blood sugar spikes.

I quite agree with testing one thing at a time to fully understand it’s impact. That provides a platform to understand combinations of foods or combinations of food plus other activities. However the likelihood that such a high carb food would not lead to an unacceptable rise in someone with type 2 diabetes is extremely unlikely in anything other than minute quantities.
 

Mbaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,339
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Available fast foods in Supermarkets
Bulgar wheat on its own would not be a satisfying meal. There are no major secrets in low carb / keto, many of us who seek optimal health do not include bulgar wheat or similar. The OP's meal of essentially Meat and 2 Veg, I would happily stick my neck out to say would be at least 2 points lower than with the added bulgar as it has less elements potentially bad for Type 2's. I have documented my meals for several years and do not spike above 6 mmol - here's one with similar elements to the OP's (actually a few more low starch veg) from 2019:

upload_2022-2-6_23-12-30.png


Neal Barnard's best results as a RCT are circa 7.5 mmol/mol, with a startling rise in the wrong direction over time, i.e it doesn't work in comparison to even my non-Doctor results. Ted Naiman (paraphrasing) takes pleasure in rewriting patient records as in remission. He was raised Vegan / Vegetarian during his childhood and into becoming an adult - it did not work for him. If you look at him on Twitter, his before and after / now little more needs to be said.

It is a shame that Ted's name is in the same sentence as the other man, they have nothing in common; one I would entrust my families health to. Barnard tells half truths especially in mechanisms that took me time to work out, as I used to believe him and (Greger) and he is very plausible due to this. Ted tells "clean" truths that could upset hard Keto and Vegan advocates, as he gets tangible results with real patients. He also practices what he preaches, whilst it is not a beauty contest Ted's animal based high protein diet with circa 100 grams of carbs advert is much more compelling than Mr Barnard's illogical for diabetics position. Ted's message has been backed by Diet Doctor, and his P.E. Diet is for me the best.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HSSS

Beating-My-Betes

Well-Known Member
Messages
661
Fat - certainly significant fat - is likely to slow any blood glucose reaction and/or lower it but keep glucose raised for longer than carbs on their own.

But that's the point. I know you and I will disagree about the rise itself, but I doubt we'd disagree that the bigger issue is the length of the high. What stands out to me, in the OP's case, is that it's still high after 2 hours.
If that's attributable to the combination with fat, as it might be - and given how such a combination is 'sold' as a benefit for curbing highs - why would this be something 'we' would want?

It's no different to me than the advice from the low-fat side to add beans and legumes to dull spikes. That's all well and good viewed through the lens of a spike. But it comes a the expense of much slower digestion, and a high that lasts longer

Naiman’s position relates not so much to blood sugar issues but to weight and potential gain thereof (i.e it’s about energy ratios ) so I’m not sure of its relevance to a question about blood sugar spikes.

Unfortunately, Ted's messaging is mixed and messy, and not worth trying to untangle. Suffice to say, that Ted's over-arching position seems very much to encompass insulin-resistance and diabetes.

Either way, that wasn't the context I meant. I was pointing out that both he and Barnard are pointing to a conflict/blockage due to the mix of carbs and fats in the blood, at the same time. In Naiman's case, he seems to be asserting that the presence of insulin stops fat from being burnt, while Barnard is suggesting that the presence of fat in that same blood mixture is stopping.

I think they are both right, but, within the wider contexts of their overall positions, I think they're both wrong :)

I quite agree with testing one thing at a time to fully understand it’s impact. That provides a platform to understand combinations of foods or combinations of food plus other activities. However the likelihood that such a high carb food would not lead to an unacceptable rise in someone with type 2 diabetes is extremely unlikely in anything other than minute quantities.

I'm glad you agree about isolated testing. I only test that way, but it seems most test an entire meal, then extrapolate from that an isolated conclusion based only on carbs.

Even if you knew that the same meal without carbs consistently gave a known result, it doesn't follow that everything above that is down to added carbs. Even if we completely dismiss the idea pf potential conflicts between the two, just the addition of extra bulk, calories etc. etc. would already cause issues with measurements.

As to the idea of small quantities and unacceptable rises: We're talking about 3 tablespoons of bulgar (I'll assume cooked, unless the OP confirms otherwise). I normally use cronometer for nutrient-tracking, but it offered no tbsp measurement for cooked bulgar. But I did find this, from fatsecret:

https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/food/bulgur/carbohydrate

Even if we grant total carbs instead of net, it works out at 4.68 grams of carbs for the entire portion.

Would you consider that such a high-carb food? and would you expect such an amount to almost double BG, if eaten on its own, even in someone with diabetes?

Like I said, there are other variables that we can't test. And I definitely think that carb reactions can be exponential i.e over and above the value of the actual load, for those that tend to err on the side of very low-carb diets. But all the other unknown variables can also confound. It's entirely possible, that the exact same meal eaten under different circumstances, on a different day, might not have incurred even close to that amount of a rise.

It's all very well to advise people to let their meters be their guides, but perhaps that advice would be better off with some addenda.
 

Mbaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,339
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Available fast foods in Supermarkets
Total misrepresentation of what Ted says. He attributes fat to the potential for the dawn phenomena, nothing to do with 2 hour post postprandial meals. He classifies both fat and carbs as energy; this is my one gripe with both Ted and Paul Saladino is that they look at things through metabolically healthy eyes. By this I mean with Ted he interchanges fat or carbs as the energy sub-straight, when I believe in the metabolically sick in the context of a well formulated low carb diet, animal fat has for example "real" diabetes remission and other symptom results, I am yet to see an in remission Type 2, swap out the fat energy for carbs and stay in remission. Similarly with Paul, his addition of honey spikes him to around 7.7 mmol/mol, what would this do to a Type 2 in remission or not (Dr Jamie Seeman resolved her pre-diabetes, tried honey in her Keto diet and went close to 200)

Ted also is on the performance side, so he is looking to literally have the most lean muscle mass to fat mass (which is what I like to strive towards). What is surprising is that if one is well read on Ted Naiman and Neal Barnard, cross reference the results obtained on both patterns, it should be clear cut which method works best.

Ideology I believe is at play and "it" must work no matter what the facts, akin to the low fat is best from the 80's, if it didn't work for you your're not doing it right or just do it harder.

One of these is Barnard's type of approach (note the age difference as well):

upload_2022-2-7_13-10-16.png


This is what Ted does to take stalled Keto or failed other diets to the next level from the horses mouth 10 hours ago:
upload_2022-2-7_13-15-30.png


The high proteins he likes are steak, salmon and pastured eggs, again nothing in common with the other fella.

This is what Neal Barnard claims:
upload_2022-2-7_13-26-28.png


The money shot is labs (including his), numbers real people. Interesting I skimmed through posts where are the success stories....did the same on Ted's twitter and people are falling over themselves to say thank you.
 

Goonergal

Master
Retired Moderator
Messages
13,465
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Even if we grant total carbs instead of net, it works out at 4.68 grams of carbs for the entire portion.

Would you consider that such a high-carb food? and would you expect such an amount to almost double BG, if eaten on its own, even in someone with diabetes?

As you say, we’re unlikely to agree but let’s not use spurious ‘portion’ sizes to debate the carb content of foods. According to the Waitrose website, Bulgar Wheat is 22% carbs: https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-love-life-wholewheat-bulgur/604408-371480-371481
which is roughly equivalent to potatoes (sweet or otherwise). So yes, I count it as a high carb food. Your 4.68 grams would amount to a tiny serving.

On that note I will end as further debate will move us away from the topic of the thread - a long debate between the two of us will NOT help the OP (once a mod, always a mod!)
 

Beating-My-Betes

Well-Known Member
Messages
661
As you say, we’re unlikely to agree but let’s not use spurious ‘portion’ sizes to debate the carb content of foods. According to the Waitrose website, Bulgar Wheat is 22% carbs: https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-love-life-wholewheat-bulgur/604408-371480-371481
which is roughly equivalent to potatoes (sweet or otherwise). So yes, I count it as a high carb food. Your 4.68 grams would amount to a tiny serving.

On that note I will end as further debate will move us away from the topic of the thread - a long debate between the two of us will NOT help the OP (once a mod, always a mod!)

I'm happy to end the conversation, but with all due respect t your modship, I think you've completely misunderstood my post, and perhaps the OP's also. Perhaps I can clear up a couple of things:

Firstly: Percentages are meaningless, in this context. Glucose is 100% carbs, but I'm sure you'd agree that eating 0.001grams of glucose would be of no issue to anybody. Same goes for your example of potatoes. Amount of carbs per gram is meaningless if one only eats one french fry.

But I'm not really sure about your claim of "spurious ‘portion’ sizes to debate the carb content of foods".
The OP literally mentioned 3 tbsp of bulgar wheat:

Screenshot 2022-02-07 at 15.47.30.png


I already showed a link to what 3 tbsp of cooked bulgar wheat adds up to, in terms of carbs. But ok...Waitrose has different values (It happens. Even the same foods vary in terms of nutritional value, depending on a multitude of factors).

So I went back to cronometer to see if I could find tbsp measurements:

Cron has it down as 18.6g of carbs, per 100g. So...in the same ball-park (I've

highlighted 100g to isolate this quantity from the rest of what is listed):

Screenshot 2022-02-07 at 15.51.15.png



Given OP is talking about tablespoons, I've included that conversion, here:

Screenshot 2022-02-07 at 15.41.02.png



But at the level of 3 tbsp, as per the OP, the amount comes close to the number I originally gave, from fatsecret:

Screenshot 2022-02-07 at 15.41.15.png


So...we're talking about somewhere between 4.6 and 6.3 grams of carbs supposedly being the absolute culprit of a 5-point rise in BG, for over 2 hours??

Again - and this is very much intended to help the OP, who i assume actually enjoys eating bulgar wheat - I'd advise (And I know you're in agreement at this point) that the OP test a similar amount of bulgar, in isolation, to ascertain its effects. Then, if that result is acceptable to them, to perhaps think about not eating it at the same time as a fatty meal, but to occasionally enjoy some added to a lower-fat salad, every once in a while.
 

Mbaker

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,339
Type of diabetes
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Available fast foods in Supermarkets
Missing is talking about fat when the OP's meal is essentially devoid of fat:

Chicken breast = staple of low carb keto no spikes
Roasted courgettes= staple of low carb keto no spikes
Peppers, rocket, fresh herbs = staple of low carb keto no spikes

The above is essentially a body building style diet. Discussing fat is a "making it fit the narrative" position, because there is no way the high carb element could do what high carb does.....this is a classic strawman.

Diet Doctor tags courgettes and peppers as low carb / keto. But more importantly low carbers have been eating these for years, nothing changed recently, and chicken breast is zero carb.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/vegetables

upload_2022-2-7_17-13-7.png

Nobody who studies low carb will be surprised to see how badly bulgar wheat performs as I have not seen bulgar listed or talked about by any of the animal based low carb keto gurus; only plant based discuss this.
 

Geordie_P

Well-Known Member
Messages
849
Type of diabetes
Type 2
"Glucose is 100% carbs, but I'm sure you'd agree that eating 0.001grams of glucose would be of no issue to anybody. Same goes for your example of potatoes. Amount of carbs per gram is meaningless if one only eats one french fry."

This seems a bit like saying smoking 1/10th of a cigarette is unlikely to prove harmful as a one off, therefore smoking is healthy
.
I think the info the original poster needs is as follows: Bulgar wheat is packed with carbs, and is therefore extremely likely to spike T2s.