Frustrated after my recent visit to the diabetic nurse

[Pneu]

So tell me this! Why is it that every health official and the government and anyone watching what they eat is adviced to keep the fat intake low. Now they don't tell you that for nothing.

I would suggest the following:

1. There is / has been a lot of money invested by food manufactures promoting 'low fat'.

2. To turn around and tell a whole generation that you may have seriously messed up dietary advise would be particularly damaging to the government that decided to do so; and thus being political animals they wont.

3. The weight of evidence to support low carb - high fat has only really been gaining mainstream momentum over the past 5 - 10 years.

I work closely with the diabetes team at my local PCT and they have to follow 'standard' advice if you ask them anything officially.. however there is a real interest in LCHF and active support of those who wish to undertake such regimes.

Further I would suggest as a method to control type II diabetes it has been demonstrated countless times by individuals on this forum to work.. not only as a means to control blood glucose; but in terms of offering additional benefits such as improved lipid profiles and blood pressure. LCHF is not a 'fad' or unproven method of control, it is recommend by a number of leading health authorities across the world.

I would suggest the best thing you can do is research your condition and take a holistic view of type II diabetes control.

 

[xyzzy]

Type 2 is preventable
Type 1 is not
I'm type 1

My calorie intake is roughly 1900 to 2000 a day on my low carb high fat diet. Doesn't sound excessive does it? As Lucy says rather than believe what an American journalist says why not go research the subject properly. All I do is substitute starchy carbs for loads of green veg, eggs, cheese, full fat yoghurt and other fresh produce. I avoid dangerous trans fats and eat a bit more extra meat and fish than I did. If I work out where my calories come from then its around 15% carbs, 20% protein and 65% fat.

If you think that T2 is preventable then again go research the subject properly. I get the feeling the next thing you'll tell me is that its all to do with "the food in my mouth" and that I am fat and lazy and need to exercise more when in reality I have a BMI of 23 and do a reasonable amount of exercise. Stereotyping people isn't a nice thing is it?

Go read about the LookAhead Trial. It just spent $200 million over 11 years to prove that your supposed healthy diet and exercise regime makes no difference what so ever to the incidence of heart disease. Everyone's a bit embarrassed about that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/20/h...s-in-diabetics.html?emc=tnt&tntemail1=y&_r=2&

BTW I know T1 is not preventable my eldest is T1.

 

[Pneu]

Snip

Geezer654...

We can sit here all evening posting links to this study and that study.. the fact of the matter is you have to make your own mind up as to how you want to control your diabetes. At the moment you don't appear to have a particularly holistic view on the world of diabetes.. that said if what you do works don't change it but accept the fact that other people choose to control their diabetes differently.

I have been low carbing for a number of years.. in that time I have maintained a good lipid profile and sub 5.5% HbA1c as a type I diabetic.. I been type I for nearly 15 years.. and I have no signs of any diabetic complications.. in fact 5 years ago I suffered a head injury which resulted in burst blood vessels and a lot of damage in my left eye.. the doctors were very worried that with diabetes I would lose my sight.. the doctor said something along the lines of "if you have any sight left in your eye in two years your doing well" LCHF has enabled me to maintain control to a level whereby on my retinal screens there is no evidence of any degradation much to their amazement.

At the end of the day no one can force you to do anything or believe anything you don't want to.. BUT LCHF works.. this is FACT you can not argue with the 100's of people on this forum who have used it to control their diabetes.

 

[Indy51]

Sorry, but if it comes to a choice of believing Dr Bernstein or believing Geezer and the reporters and registered dietitians he trots out, I'll follow Dr Bernstein's advice any day.

 

[xyzzy]

You are all missing my point. My problem is not that if It works or it doesn't work I am just challenging the fact that you all think that it's the best diet ever and is not without controversy.

Nope never said it was the best diet ever. Just that its better than the one recommended by the NHS for T2's. If your are not a diet only or diet only + minimal meds T2 diabetic then other regimes higher in carbs and lower in fats may be just as healthy. A lot of other countries offer a range of lower carbohydrate regimes as they have correctly concluded using evidence from the 21st century that they are more suitable for T2 diabetics. In the UK we are advocated a one diet is suitable for all people be they non diabetic, T1 or T2. That is the fundamental objection of many T2's on the forum.

[LCHF] is a method for lazy idiots, you lose weight without exercise…

It's also a method that as a T2 diabetic keeps my BG's at near non diabetic levels, reduced my cholesterol to normal and given me a brilliant BP on nigh on no meds which the standard NHS diet did not. Quite happy to be called anything by anybody as I'm the one with the 4.9% hBA1c.

The controversy is that there is not enough LONG term research for me to see what the long term effects are.

but 11 years and $200 million the AHEAD Trial LONG term study has just shown that low fat and high carb diet with exercise regimes are pretty useless for T2 diabetics so that sounds worse to me. There are an increasing number of long term studies for low carb regimes. If that wasn't the case then why would even the ADA recommend a 130g / day limit on carbs (what they call their quarter plate approach) which amounts to a 25% carb restricted diet. That's half the 50% carb regime a person is recommended in the UK. There are long term studies on the safety of low carb diets but they are not in the realm of diabetics try reading up on the application of Ketogenic diets for Epilepsy suffers. Why would the worlds two leading healthcare systems recommend low carb regimes for T2 diabetics if they weren't using an evidence based approach?

Alternatively find me one real peer reviewed major long term scientific study that shows increasing saturated fats does cause my arteries to fur up. There are loads of major long term scientific studies to show it doesn't. Many of the studies that show fats to be bad simply group all fats together. No one is suggesting an increase in say trans fats would be good for you.

Again find me one real peer reviewed major long term scientific study that shows a low carbohydrate diet is in anyway dangerous.

I never stereo typed anyone when an expert comes on the news and says that the number of type 2 diabetics is one the increase and is causing a strain on the NHS and a way of preventing this is to educate poeple about there life style choices and can be prevented by doing this what would you think?

There you go stereotyping people again even though you don't seem to realise you are doing it. So I and other T2's are causing a strain on the NHS because of the bad life style choices we made? Well thanks a bundle Geezer. All I did was for most of my life was to be a good boy and follow the low fat high carb 5 a day eat from fresh and exercise stuff I was told would keep me healthy as did many, many T2's who are members of this forum. When I was diagnosed pre diabetic back in 2010 I took and religiously followed all the standard NHS diet education literature stuff. The result? Within three months my hBA1c had risen to 8.3% and six months later it had risen to 11.3%. At that point enough was enough and I swapped to doing low carb high fat and reduced it down to 4.9% in 6 months. I agree educating people is very important the trouble is the education message is plain wrong in this country. It is so easy for doctors and the government and people like yourself to blame the patients rather than actually blame the message that's being delivered. If I had been given a low carb diet sheet by the NHS when pre diabetic (as I would have been done in Sweden) then I'd have never progressed to full T2 and consequently wouldn't be "such a strain" on the NHS would I?

 

[borofergie]

I understand exactly what your saying but however you look at it a high fat diet is not good for you and a doctor should not just let you get on with it watching those arteries fur up. If you can't control your type 2 by meds and a healthy balanced diet and what I mean by that is a bit of everything not a hi carb diet but balanced not high in anything. Then if that is not achievable because BG goes up then you should be re- diagnosed with type 1 and get better control of it not let it control you by eating in my opinion an unhealthy diet then the DAFNE course would apply to you. But I do agree we are put into one category and treat for that category and not as a individual.

Dude, 2 million years of evolution trained your body to expect a hunter-gatherer's diet, rich in fatty meat, free of refined carbohydrates.

"Balanced" is just a dumb arbitrary definition. It's not based on any science. Unless you are an athlete, your body can't process more than about 150g of carbohydrate a day (without resorting to disposal mechanisms such as turning excess carbohydrate to saturated fat).

Nobody ever thought that eating fat "furred up your arteries". Some short term trials associated fat intake with raised cholesterol, but those results have now been superceded with longer term studies that show that fat consumption does not influence cholesterol or CV mortality.

I get about 80% of my calories from fat (meat, eggs and dairy) and I have excellent BG readings, and cholesterol scores which are, if anything, too low.

 

[sky]

dr.john briffa a respected doc agrees good fats are good for us and do not harm us & cave man eating is the correct way to control diabetes.. also see dr.oz and his suggestions on reversing type 2..

 

[IanD]

Geezer - you want long term trials ....

I've been diagnosed T2 for 12 years - 2000. At diagnosis I was given all the standard "healthy eating" advice, & told that however well I followed it, diabetes was progressive. At diagnosis I was already active - tennis & table tennis - & eating a healthy diet (approved by the SABRE dietitian - see p. 10 of the latest Balance mag.) 20 years ago, the GTT indicated NO pre-diabetes.

Sure enough I progressed to medication, chronic tiredness, beginning of retinopathy, reduced kidney function, & after 7-8 years, debilitating muscle pain. My active was over. Then I discovered this forum, & the low carb advice. In 3 months I was well again. After one year of low carb SABRE recalled me for very comprehensive heart & circulation tests. Only minor age-related conditions.

Now, after 4 1/2 years low carb I am well & active, & free of any symptoms.

10 years ago, DUK (in Balance) warned against low carb (Atkins) & said longer trials were needed - & being conducted. Last year they issued their "Position Statement on Low Carb" & said further trials were needed to assess the "dangers" of low carb.

We KNOW the dangers of the DUK diet - & so do they - it's crippling the NHS & diabetic patients. Those who have tried it KNOW the benefits of LCHF & we have yet to discover the dangers. I am not prepared to revert to the DUK diet & its well known dangers because of undocumented & unproved warnings against LCHF. I value my health, eyesight, kidneys, & at 73 I enjoy my tennis all the year round, AND I won 2 Olympic medals for table tennis in the Ealing Hospital Olympics. .

 

[iamsafc]

I do not read books by so-called experts as I find they are always trying to sell something. I have found by following my diabetic nurse's advice that I have lost weight and as I have angina and have had a slight stroke my medical practice is the best place to go to,

 

[xyzzy]

I do not read books by so-called experts as I find they are always trying to sell something. I have found by following my diabetic nurse's advice that I have lost weight and as I have angina and have had a slight stroke my medical practice is the best place to go to, not some quacj

Which "quack" are you referring to? My GP and DSN fully support what I do and like I say my hBA1c is now 30 (4.9%), my cholesterol levels meet the UK N.I.C.E guidelines for diabetics as does my blood pressure and I am of average weight. In the eyes of the NHS I must now be the ideal patient yet a year ago I was failing on all those criteria by following their advice. Do whatever you think is best in your circumstances but do so after doing the relevant research and with an open a mind. I also haven't read any books on diabetes but I certainly don't dismiss people who write books as quacks or money grabbers without any evidence. I actually take the built up wisdom and advice of the hundreds of people on this forum who have controlled their conditions for years. That seems a remarkably sensible approach to me.

 

[xyzzy]

we appear to be under attack from some trolls/shills whose intent is to muddy any sensible debate with their incessant diversionary postings.

The intention being to attack the current successful LCHF diet as espoused by members of this forum with drivel and to constantly push the diet their masters (the big pharmaceutical companies) want us to follow so that we progress into needing their medication to control our diabetes... there's no money in it for them if we can control our condition with a sensible diet... and anytime that working diets are brought up, they get flooded with diversionary posts.

I agree with you Paul but every time they do we can just answer them with the truth. The more times we can push the eat to your meter message in all its forms and show it works the more new members that can be helped and continue the good work.

Moderator Edit: Pneu

 

[lucylocket61]

Moderator Edit: Pneu

I, personally am in favour of following xyzzy's example and treating each newcomer, no matter how they word their post, with politeness and correct information.

Before I developed type2 diabetes, I too thought it was for overweight, self-indulgent lazy people. Because that is what I read and was told by everyone, in and out of the media.(with the exception of my Dad, who was a rare anomaly in my eyes)

And when I was diagnosed as Type 2, my DSN also said it was my fault for being self-indulgent, lazy etc. So I can understand why the majority of new posters also think this.

So I see our task of educating people about the causes of diabetes as vital. Just as vital as educating them on how to effectively treat their diabetes, or diabetics they come into contact with. Insulting them will not help.

Of course, some people are clearly not listening and are deliberately insulting. After a few posts, I think they are best flagged and ignored.

 

[MAMA2X]

I have only known that i was type 2 for a month or so, and don't understand all the readings and levels and stuff. When I go to the doctors they just say blood presure id too high, glucose level too high and colestrol could be better. I am nearly 50 and put my headaches etc down to my age (menopause). I have been taking 1xmetformin 3times a day no real side effects. Today I went to GP for blood pressure check and water infection but have come away with statins as well as antibiotics to go with my metformin. Some people on the forum seem to be against statins and I just wondered why? I am trying to alter my diet and as I didn't really have a sweet tooth I thought cutting the carbs was the way to go.... when I told GP about this he was dismissive and said my colestrol was high so be careful. why? I'm feeling confussed and fed up and sorry for myself I just dont know which way to turn.

 

[dawnmc]

How long are you considered 'new'? I consider myself new, I was diagnosed in Jan of this year. I'm 11 and a half stone, 5ft 7. Not particularly overweight, but I'm a bit of an apple shape - hence I think diabetic. I was vegetarian for 5 years before diagnosis. Healthy but high carb. On diagnsis I was 11.something, now 7.1 not a huge drop but a drop nontheless. I haven't lost weight, but I'm sure I could if I exercised more.
I don't see how anyone can fault what people do to control their diabetes, what I do object to is people coming on here and stating - (spouting) stuff they appear to have very little experience of. And in the process denigrating us Type 2's as sloths. I'm also damned sure that if I had followed the NHS line I would be alot sicker. I was told to eat what I had always eaten, but less of it. For gods sake I don't et that much. Never have. I asked my nurse and dietician that if I carried on eating what I had and it gave me diabetes, what was going to change. I now know the answer - it would be to take medication, because its seen as a progressive disease. My last Hb1 thing was 7.0 so down a little bit more.
How can a T1 who can inject to cover what they eat possibly know what a T2 can eat and vice versa.

 

[dawnmc]

Well mama I was fine before menopause then put weight on round my middle and I too became diabetic.
As for statins, you need to research about them before you decide to take them. Google Dr Malcolm Kendrick for a more information.

 

[Paul Oak]

I was the same and so frustrated by conflicting advice and advice that was counter intuitive, over the years my weight increased, my insulin doses rising dramatically, as resistance set in. Then this summer I was sent on DAPHNE course, what a revelation, the advice was so good, and was in line with what I intuitively knew, Result that over the past few months my insulin doses have decreased by about 70% Lantus down from 2x 40 units to 2 x17 units, and still falling, and average humalog considerably down as well. Hbc is down to good levels. Overall I feel I have far more control and Hypos have virtualy stopped. I have lost appx 10 kg, still more to go, but as it goes down the resistance is obviously decreasing as well. Ask about DAPHNE in your area it really works. The only down side is the extra testing, but I can live with that.

 

[xyzzy]

Hi MAMA2X

I found the key to getting over being fed up was to realise that it was my diabetes and not my GP's or nurses. Like you I never had a sweet tooth and wasn't particularly that overweight when diagnosed. I found this site and the brilliant advice that people give and never looked back.

A lot of us think carbs are the really important thing so we would recommend the following. First get yourself a blood testing meter. The one most new members buy (those who gp's won't prescribe one which is usually the case) is the SD Codefree which you can get for under £20 from either Amazon or eBay. Test strips cost £5 for 50 which is the cheapest for any meter by far.

While you are waiting for your meter start out by trying to halve your starchy carbs so that's bread, rice, pasta, cereals, potatoes and other flour based products. Replace with extra meat, cheese, eggs, fish and especially green veg. On the starchy foods you keep try swapping to brown basmati rice, brown or tri colour pasta. The best bread that most of us use is Burgen Soya Bread which you can get from most supermarkets.

Once you get you meter then you should aim to get a reading under 8 two hours after you have eaten a meal. At the start you may find that difficult so try measuring before a meal, take note of the number and then measure two hours after you have eaten. Try to get a reading that is roughly the same as the one you took before you ate. If you do that then most people find that over a period of days or weeks your numbers will gradually begin to come down to safe levels. If your two hour readings are still far higher than your before meal ones then you can either reduce the starchy foods some more or you should go back to your gp and ask for stronger medication as its running with very high levels that can do some really nasty damage to you.

High Cholesterol is a matter of debate on the forum. I do believe there is some value which it is dangerous to go above but its probably higher than what we are told is the same level. I'm afraid its one of those ones where you will need to read the forum and make your own mind up. What I would say is that when I swapped to the lower starch and sugar diet my cholesterol levels improved dramatically. In any event a lot of us would also say as a newly diagnosed T2 your priority should be to get back to having safe blood sugar levels as there is loads of evidence that says high sugar levels are very dangerous where as its not as clear that having high cholesterol is as risky.

 

[xyzzy]

I was the same and so frustrated by conflicting advice and advice that was counter intuitive, over the years my weight increased, my insulin doses rising dramatically, as resistance set in. Then this summer I was sent on DAPHNE course, what a revelation, the advice was so good, and was in line with what I intuitively knew, Result that over the past few months my insulin doses have decreased by about 70% Lantus down from 2x 40 units to 2 x17 units, and still falling, and average humalog considerably down as well. Hbc is down to good levels. Overall I feel I have far more control and Hypos have virtualy stopped. I have lost appx 10 kg, still more to go, but as it goes down the resistance is obviously decreasing as well. Ask about DAPHNE in your area it really works. The only down side is the extra testing, but I can live with that.

Hi Paul and welcome. Glad the DAPHNE course has worked for you Paul that's great.

Just a quick thing both the OP and MAMA2X are newly diagnosed T2's who are not on insulin and therefore cannot inject insulin to cover the carbs they consume. They have to rely on choosing food sources that their reduced insulin production capability and insulin resistance problems will allow them to consume safely. The dietary advice therefore has to be different for that reason. While the DAPHNE course is great for T1's like yourself then even if you end up as an insulin using T2 that course is generally not open to T2's in this country which is a great shame.

 

[IanD]

I am a member of the Hounslow Cardio/Diabetes Support Group.

Over a year ago, when a dietitian scheduled to speak called off ill, I mentioned my experience with a low carb diet.

Last May I gave a talk on my experience (summarised a few posts ago.) At the meeting Oct 30 this week the organiser told me he has reduced his carbs as a result of my talk & feels much better for it, & he has shown my talk to others. A number of youngsters have taken reduced carb on board & are slimmer & fitter, without significantly increasing exercise.

He's planning next years talks, & I have been asked to give another talk on low carb diet next year.

About 50 people attend the meetings.

------
Mama2x - I was put on simvastatin, but found I developed intense muscle pain. I stopped taking them, & the pain eased. I then told the Dr & he confirmed the side effect. I live without statins now. My wife takes a bigger doe=se that I tried, & she is OK with them.

 

[peter7]

I dont like to compare but I have received excellent care and attention from my Nurse, she treats me like an adult and we make joint decisions, for testing I was given a meter that was acceptable to the Health Trust and test as required, ie if I think it necessary. I also purchased contour strips which are not covered but have enough for twelve months of intermittent testing (I like the record keeping and use of the usb contour)
We are all trying our best and there are different approaches, but as a consultant once said to me when I was tired of all the appointments and advice. "You have got to have a life there is room for choice"
I wish you all well.